Training Bond
Brilliant Stuff, there's a novel idea. Its never going to happen in a large helicopter company. Management dont like pilots remember. 
If only Richard Branson had an offshore helicopter company, he'd have the happiest pilots, and no-one would ever leave!!
Bravo73, that Bond above is sold as a 5 yr bond. !!!!
If only Richard Branson had an offshore helicopter company, he'd have the happiest pilots, and no-one would ever leave!!
Bravo73, that Bond above is sold as a 5 yr bond. !!!!
You are all concentrating on the monetary value of the bond.What about the fact the you are entering in to a commitment giving your WORD to stay for X amount of time.
I find that people who lie about there intentions knowingly intentending to foxtrot Oscar once the training is complete shows a lack of integrity that doesn't belong in a profession such ours .
Quite rightly walk from your bond and suffer the consequences.
Funnily enough the individuals that I have meet that have walked from bonds without paying the outstanding sum have all been the first out of the Taxi and last one in the Bar.
I find that people who lie about there intentions knowingly intentending to foxtrot Oscar once the training is complete shows a lack of integrity that doesn't belong in a profession such ours .
Quite rightly walk from your bond and suffer the consequences.
Funnily enough the individuals that I have meet that have walked from bonds without paying the outstanding sum have all been the first out of the Taxi and last one in the Bar.
If you don't run off with the company's silver spoons your bond is pretty much a job (and income) guarantee for 5 (or six ) years.
That is not to be neglected in our line of work.
If some other company wants you badly tell them to find the dough and buy you out. Just like football clubs do.
Be a man.
By the way, one of them spineless ones used to be a friend of mine. I have since cancelled that relationship for good...
) years.That is not to be neglected in our line of work.
If some other company wants you badly tell them to find the dough and buy you out. Just like football clubs do.
Be a man.
By the way, one of them spineless ones used to be a friend of mine. I have since cancelled that relationship for good...
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It's not a job guarantee, it is indentured servitude.
LOWFAT: I agree completely, if you sign it honor it (both sides of course). For myself, I don't need a piece of paper for that. I also expect integrity to come from the other side of the table as well.
The first bond I flatly refused to sign was for a company I had already been working for, and they approached me about the endorsement. Even as young as I was, I saw the red flags and told them, verbally, I'd stay 2 years. Sure enough, once in the new job, they found ways to renege on the offered payscale, time off was non existent as the phone was constantly ringing to 'cover' a shift, and getting a taxi ride reimbursed meant camping out in the base manager's office! Even the a/c had no spares, but if you refused to accept it at shift start, big trouble, sad.
I left after less than a year. On the way out I explained why I felt I could not stay. Did they address the pay issues? No. A/C parts and serviceability? No. Staffing levels? No. They did threaten to send lawyers after me to collect on their bond. I had to remind them to check the file, I did not sign one.
Later, new company, we had a young pilot approach us, asking questions but not quite asking for work. After talking to him we discovered he had signed a bond the previous year, but his 'employer' had suffered a slowdown and had sent him home, no work (that is correct, no pay but not quite laid off). They had carefully reminded him that his 'bond' prevented him from seeking another job. We hired him, and sent our own lawyers to sort that issue!
Even recently, one of the [ahem] 'big' offshore operators decided to present us with a bond after the training for the Puma had already started (it was replacing the 61 on the base and all staff were moving over). "Oh, by the way, just sign this" ?!?! $80,000 bond! Utter lack of integrity. Didn't sign that either, didn't leave right away, but didn't sign!
Even now, my current employer (another name that is supposedly a pillar of the industry) feels that if I am sent away for a 76D conversion, not even an endorsement this one, that I am only entitled to 2/3 pay because it is really to my benefit. So this isn't a bond, just $7000 out of my pocket.
Bonds, as I have seen them, are either a crutch for an operation that lacks integrity or a reaction, in fear, to punish those that follow the guilty.
I'm sure I'll sign one some day, when it is presented by a company that is acting above board and with integrity, and when it is written with both parties in mind. I don't argue the enforceability, or lack thereof, because I, like you, feel that my signature is more than a little bit of ink, like my word is more than just a passing breath.
LOWFAT: I agree completely, if you sign it honor it (both sides of course). For myself, I don't need a piece of paper for that. I also expect integrity to come from the other side of the table as well.
The first bond I flatly refused to sign was for a company I had already been working for, and they approached me about the endorsement. Even as young as I was, I saw the red flags and told them, verbally, I'd stay 2 years. Sure enough, once in the new job, they found ways to renege on the offered payscale, time off was non existent as the phone was constantly ringing to 'cover' a shift, and getting a taxi ride reimbursed meant camping out in the base manager's office! Even the a/c had no spares, but if you refused to accept it at shift start, big trouble, sad.
I left after less than a year. On the way out I explained why I felt I could not stay. Did they address the pay issues? No. A/C parts and serviceability? No. Staffing levels? No. They did threaten to send lawyers after me to collect on their bond. I had to remind them to check the file, I did not sign one.
Later, new company, we had a young pilot approach us, asking questions but not quite asking for work. After talking to him we discovered he had signed a bond the previous year, but his 'employer' had suffered a slowdown and had sent him home, no work (that is correct, no pay but not quite laid off). They had carefully reminded him that his 'bond' prevented him from seeking another job. We hired him, and sent our own lawyers to sort that issue!
Even recently, one of the [ahem] 'big' offshore operators decided to present us with a bond after the training for the Puma had already started (it was replacing the 61 on the base and all staff were moving over). "Oh, by the way, just sign this" ?!?! $80,000 bond! Utter lack of integrity. Didn't sign that either, didn't leave right away, but didn't sign!
Even now, my current employer (another name that is supposedly a pillar of the industry) feels that if I am sent away for a 76D conversion, not even an endorsement this one, that I am only entitled to 2/3 pay because it is really to my benefit. So this isn't a bond, just $7000 out of my pocket.
Bonds, as I have seen them, are either a crutch for an operation that lacks integrity or a reaction, in fear, to punish those that follow the guilty.
I'm sure I'll sign one some day, when it is presented by a company that is acting above board and with integrity, and when it is written with both parties in mind. I don't argue the enforceability, or lack thereof, because I, like you, feel that my signature is more than a little bit of ink, like my word is more than just a passing breath.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Bonds, as I have seen them, are either a crutch for an operation that lacks integrity or a reaction, in fear, to punish those that follow the guilty
What bond-jumpers don't always take on board is that they are a marked man in a relatively small market place and companies do talk to each other, even that is not always necessary, just a glance through the log book will tell its own story!
P&A,
Are you kidding?
It's not a job guarantee, it is indentured servitude.
Lets not beat around the bush here, if you have up to $80k of your own for a type rating you can be free of all of this.
If you don't you are asking a potential or current employer to invest hugely in YOUR career with no guarantee you will stick around. That's what the bond is for, it's return on investment. You are both getting something out of this, it's just that the operator is also financing a huge cost as well.
You are an example of the reason they exist. As GG pointed out earlier on, it hurts a company. Even to a big operator $80k per pilot is a huge amount of money.
HeliMutt also asked a question about why not give type ratings for current staff. Simple answer is that you're then paying for 2 type ratings, one for your current pilot to change types and one to hire a new guy to back fill that newly opened slot. It's nothing personal, it's just cheaper that way.
Are you kidding?
It's not a job guarantee, it is indentured servitude.
Lets not beat around the bush here, if you have up to $80k of your own for a type rating you can be free of all of this.
If you don't you are asking a potential or current employer to invest hugely in YOUR career with no guarantee you will stick around. That's what the bond is for, it's return on investment. You are both getting something out of this, it's just that the operator is also financing a huge cost as well.
You are an example of the reason they exist. As GG pointed out earlier on, it hurts a company. Even to a big operator $80k per pilot is a huge amount of money.
HeliMutt also asked a question about why not give type ratings for current staff. Simple answer is that you're then paying for 2 type ratings, one for your current pilot to change types and one to hire a new guy to back fill that newly opened slot. It's nothing personal, it's just cheaper that way.
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As an outsider, I think NOWHERE SPECIAL has cut to the heart of the matter.
The employer is being asked to financeyourcareer and personal "saleability" in the job-market.
A bit of "grown up" thinking, instead of the "them V us" attitude redolent of cloth-caps and Red Robbo, would make you realise the initial investment and risk is allon the employer's tab.....he even assesses you for suitability, thus saving the unsuitable from going down an employment "blind-alley"
As a youth, I had a motorcycle license and it covered 3-wheelers. I duly traded the wet, cold sidecar outfit for a "plastic rat" shortly thereafter, I moved house and changed employers. After some weeks, the foreman enquired as to my driving license and indicated that a car-license would make me of greater value to the company.
I was allowed unpaid time off for lessons at my own expense. They lost the productivity of my area of the factory-floor, during that time.
After I passed the test, I earned much overtime thrashing a new estate -car or the works van, around the country.
Paid to learn the UK geography, paid to eat out at their expense, paid to learn how to handle various motors..
When I left that firm, I had a Company car, expense account, telephone paid for.....went to work in a suit and tie , no time-clock, no regular hours.
Employer got my loyalty, hard work and a new profit-centre for the business (mobile servicing)
Nearly 50 years later, I still benefit from that initial investment
It never occurred to me to think that *they* should finance my personal development.
It seems with the big money in the Rotary world, it's not prudent or viable to rely on integrity, trust and honour.
A bond to cover outstanding debt to an employer,is really little different from an apprenticeship or traineeship....low wages in return for their investment in training As "time-served" status approaches. the employees' skill-level rises and training costs drop. both parties win,
The employer is being asked to financeyourcareer and personal "saleability" in the job-market.
A bit of "grown up" thinking, instead of the "them V us" attitude redolent of cloth-caps and Red Robbo, would make you realise the initial investment and risk is allon the employer's tab.....he even assesses you for suitability, thus saving the unsuitable from going down an employment "blind-alley"
As a youth, I had a motorcycle license and it covered 3-wheelers. I duly traded the wet, cold sidecar outfit for a "plastic rat" shortly thereafter, I moved house and changed employers. After some weeks, the foreman enquired as to my driving license and indicated that a car-license would make me of greater value to the company.
I was allowed unpaid time off for lessons at my own expense. They lost the productivity of my area of the factory-floor, during that time.
After I passed the test, I earned much overtime thrashing a new estate -car or the works van, around the country.
Paid to learn the UK geography, paid to eat out at their expense, paid to learn how to handle various motors..
When I left that firm, I had a Company car, expense account, telephone paid for.....went to work in a suit and tie , no time-clock, no regular hours.
Employer got my loyalty, hard work and a new profit-centre for the business (mobile servicing)
Nearly 50 years later, I still benefit from that initial investment
It never occurred to me to think that *they* should finance my personal development.
It seems with the big money in the Rotary world, it's not prudent or viable to rely on integrity, trust and honour.
A bond to cover outstanding debt to an employer,is really little different from an apprenticeship or traineeship....low wages in return for their investment in training As "time-served" status approaches. the employees' skill-level rises and training costs drop. both parties win,
Give me £80k to better my chance of earning a higher wage but don't try to make me keep my word as to the length of time I stay in your employ.
Go to the bank & borrow the money, you will not walk out without signing a lot of paper work including second mortgage, & agreeing to hand over wife & children if in default (I know some would think this was a bonus) & paying a lot more than £80k, thats if they bother to listen to start with.
What a strange thread.
Go to the bank & borrow the money, you will not walk out without signing a lot of paper work including second mortgage, & agreeing to hand over wife & children if in default (I know some would think this was a bonus) & paying a lot more than £80k, thats if they bother to listen to start with.
What a strange thread.
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P&A,
Are you kidding?
It's not a job guarantee, it is indentured servitude.
Lets not beat around the bush here, if you have up to $80k of your own for a type rating you can be free of all of this.
If you don't you are asking a potential or current employer to invest hugely in YOUR career with no guarantee you will stick around. That's what the bond is for, it's return on investment. You are both getting something out of this, it's just that the operator is also financing a huge cost as well.
You are an example of the reason they exist. Really? By expecting that the terms agreed to ahead of time are honored. The only time I have left early was when the agreed payscale was not paid. After trying to address the issue for a year, was there any integrity on their end? None! Any agreement is therefore null and void! As GG pointed out earlier on, it hurts a company. Even to a big operator $80k per pilot is a huge amount of money.
HeliMutt also asked a question about why not give type ratings for current staff. Simple answer is that you're then paying for 2 type ratings, one for your current pilot to change types and one to hire a new guy to back fill that newly opened slot. It's nothing personal, it's just cheaper that way. And the situation that results is C*C G****l, where word is out that the only way to get a type is quit and come back, or threaten to quit, to get onto a new type. Attrition was through the roof!
Are you kidding?
It's not a job guarantee, it is indentured servitude.
Lets not beat around the bush here, if you have up to $80k of your own for a type rating you can be free of all of this.
If you don't you are asking a potential or current employer to invest hugely in YOUR career with no guarantee you will stick around. That's what the bond is for, it's return on investment. You are both getting something out of this, it's just that the operator is also financing a huge cost as well.
You are an example of the reason they exist. Really? By expecting that the terms agreed to ahead of time are honored. The only time I have left early was when the agreed payscale was not paid. After trying to address the issue for a year, was there any integrity on their end? None! Any agreement is therefore null and void! As GG pointed out earlier on, it hurts a company. Even to a big operator $80k per pilot is a huge amount of money.
HeliMutt also asked a question about why not give type ratings for current staff. Simple answer is that you're then paying for 2 type ratings, one for your current pilot to change types and one to hire a new guy to back fill that newly opened slot. It's nothing personal, it's just cheaper that way. And the situation that results is C*C G****l, where word is out that the only way to get a type is quit and come back, or threaten to quit, to get onto a new type. Attrition was through the roof!
I reiterate my point, bonds are used primarily as an attempt to enforce employment when the company lacks the ability to screen the candidates or the attractiveness to retain staff. Exceptions exist I'm sure.
A VP for a former employer (one of the better) answered my question about bonds by saying (I'll get it as close as I can remember): We don't use bonds. The difference between recurrent and an endorsement isn't worth it. Retention isn't an issue for us.
P&A,
I understand the argument but I just don't think it holds much water. The global market place means that pilots are a tradeable commodity for companies and licenses are going more and more global too.
If I give you something for free (ie at no $ cost to you) and you are able to leave for more money elsewhere, you'd be a fool not to leave.
I'll give you an example close to my heart:
Global operator looks at ex mil pilots: lots of twin hours, quite a few offshore, atpl (H) frozen or CPL (H) and IR on something nice like a 206 or even a Dauphin. Tick, very good please come in and have a free type rating on a 139 (the world ticket right now, or so it seems). We'll pay for it but not bond you because you seem like a nice chap.
Pilot A says "thanks CHC/ Bond/ Bristow for my free training and £60k a year but if it's ok with you I'm going to work for Weststar instead for $200k tax free in Morocco" or wherever else they are starting up and offering top dollar.
I know which option I'd take if I was presented with a type rating and no bond. It's human nature. Trust has to work both ways. When you can't guarantee it, stick a contract in there instead. At least it's up front and transparent.
I'd love to live in a world where pilots (and employers) are loyal but it's business for both parties. If you and your employer can get away without them then all the very best. I don;t resent them, I just think it's good business sense.
To be fair to CHC Global (might as well fill in the blanks eh?), the new touring pay deal will mean a lot less moaning about the primary T&C (ie pay) and will do more to bring them in to line globally on $ compensation so I suspect churn in touring pilots will decline over the next 3 years anyway. Fair point though.
I understand the argument but I just don't think it holds much water. The global market place means that pilots are a tradeable commodity for companies and licenses are going more and more global too.
If I give you something for free (ie at no $ cost to you) and you are able to leave for more money elsewhere, you'd be a fool not to leave.
I'll give you an example close to my heart:
Global operator looks at ex mil pilots: lots of twin hours, quite a few offshore, atpl (H) frozen or CPL (H) and IR on something nice like a 206 or even a Dauphin. Tick, very good please come in and have a free type rating on a 139 (the world ticket right now, or so it seems). We'll pay for it but not bond you because you seem like a nice chap.
Pilot A says "thanks CHC/ Bond/ Bristow for my free training and £60k a year but if it's ok with you I'm going to work for Weststar instead for $200k tax free in Morocco" or wherever else they are starting up and offering top dollar.
I know which option I'd take if I was presented with a type rating and no bond. It's human nature. Trust has to work both ways. When you can't guarantee it, stick a contract in there instead. At least it's up front and transparent.
I'd love to live in a world where pilots (and employers) are loyal but it's business for both parties. If you and your employer can get away without them then all the very best. I don;t resent them, I just think it's good business sense.
To be fair to CHC Global (might as well fill in the blanks eh?), the new touring pay deal will mean a lot less moaning about the primary T&C (ie pay) and will do more to bring them in to line globally on $ compensation so I suspect churn in touring pilots will decline over the next 3 years anyway. Fair point though.
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In Canada it is indeed indentured employment, Only way it has weight I heard is before you start there. then if you wanted out, you showed u late a few times , scared someone or something like that , and they can you, you walk free as well.
this indenturing,was one of British Colombia biggest files. when I was there.
there is an article in one of the trade mags about it by a Lawyer/IFR driver.
this indenturing,was one of British Colombia biggest files. when I was there.
there is an article in one of the trade mags about it by a Lawyer/IFR driver.
