NZ Heli Pilots pay

[Te_Kahu]

Salary Vs total package

Steve76

If the total package for the new jobs at Westpac Auckland is going to be around the $100-K mark, and you are saying the starting salary is going to be around the $75-K mark. What would you expect the bits of the package to be to make it up to $100-K.

TK

[canterbury crusader]

But can the australians afford bananas?

I would guess among others a phone, car. still a way to go to $25k though

[Steve76]

I dunno?

I haven't even seen an ad for the job. If someone can post a link or the actual ad...

Car and phone? Are we all talking about the same industry. Why would they give you a phone and pay for you to drive to work? Possible but unlikely.

I think it is best to call one of the pilots directly and ask them. As far as I know they have no health benefit programme or retirement package. But that is just speculation. I really do doubt the car, phone etc, since these guys want temp pilots to pay for their own endorsement on the BK to earn a couple of hundred dollars a shift doing part time.

Someone must know.

[belly tank]

found this

Contact:
Position description is available at http://www.rescuehelicopter.org.nz
Lodgement: Auckland Rescue Helicopter Trust, PO Box 2252, Auckland, NZ or [email protected]

Details:
Expressions of interest from highly motivated applicants for helicopter pilots. Pilots need to have minimum of 2000 hours (1500 helicopter), CPL (H), instrument rating (H) and 50 hours actual IMC. ATPL (H), SPIFR rating, instructor rating, EMS / SAR, twin engine, hoist and NVG experience would be an advantage.

[Te_Kahu]

A little more info

The website is where I first lifted the info from.
I did a little more ferreting around and understand that the package for the new positions will likely include things like super, medical, training & insurances (don't know exactly what)
S76.
Who has to pay for their own BK rating to do temp work
TK

[kwikenz]

I thought the grand plan for the ARHT after leaving Link was to get a 412? Latterly I'd heard it became a 365... now its back to being a BK. Is the BK a temporary measure or is the fundraising for the 412 now being spent on the much cheaper machine?

Curious.

[slackman]

Regarding Chief Pilot job offer in south NZ

I see a few mentions of a low wage offer for the CP role down in the
South of NZ.I hear it is looking after over 12 helicopters and the pilots that go with it.
Does anyone have any idea what a full CP role should be worth.Or your opinion on what you think it is worth.
Wether it be NZ or elsewhere
If someone takes the role at the figure we are hearing over here then he is selling out the other pilots.

[feelerup]

Even the CAA have said its worth $100,000 , the responsibility is huge .
Multiple bases and challenging working environment combined with a fairly low pilot experience level means they won't get anyone for peanuts.
Look at the accidents and incidents over the last couple of years and figure if you want the stress.
Another Westcoaster about to resign and double income up north eh .

[ems300]

i hear 2 gone from qtown 1 going form mt c, 1 form coast, plus possibly more on the way as well!! it would have to woth well over the $100,000 for all that!!!

[Scrub Cutter]

ems , who is going from the Coast ?

[Ned-Air2Air]

Interesting thread this one.

Mr Selfish - Just about spot on with your info about ARHT. They are going to be using either a BK117 from one operator of a 365N from another operator as an interim measure until the recently ordered new generation 412 arrives. Thats supposed to be the new version with glass cockpit etc etc. If all goes to plan from here then it is into an AW139. And NO it wont be leased from Airwork

Canterbury Crusader - Phone and Car Nope, would highly doubt it. Only ones who have cars there at this stage are Brownie and Rea and I think one other. As far as I know Dave Walley, Chief Peelot for the new operation doesnt even have a company car, at least last time I was down there he didnt. I dont even think operators like Careflight in OZ give their pilots company cars.

Feelerup - Was chatting with KM the other day and we had a good chat about the reasons he was leaving THL. Main one is sick of the responsibility and making no inroads on trying to get decent machinery to replace those "nice shiny new modern spick and span" AS355s provided by Airwork. Just wants to go back to flying instead of spending all day in an office dealing with "crap". Cant blame him really. The company he is going to work for is a good one, running some 206Ls and 206Bs in the nice part of PNG.

There are not that many companies in NZ who can afford to pay decent salaries. Here is a list of who I think are the ones to work for, in no particular order. Feel free to comment on any of them.

HNZ
Helicopter Line
Fox & Franz Helicopter Services (James Scott)
Over the Top (Louisa)
Glacier Southern Lakes (Dear Old Pat)
Airwork
ARHT
Flappy
Columbia NZ
Faram Helicopters
Beck Helicopters
Garden City Helicopters
Nelson Helicopters
Wanganui Aero Work
HeliPro
Skywork (Roger Stevenson)
Hele Tranz (Tony Monk)
Heliflight (Andy McKay)
Advanced Flight (Keith Stephens)
Heliworks (Alfie & Crew)
Southern Lakes Helicopters (Hannibal)
Oceania (Josh & Jonathon)

I have prob left a few out but these are ones who have more than one machine that I can think of at the moment.

From what I have seen the best way for anyone to get a decent job is to do your training here, bugger off overseas for a year or three, get some decent experience and hours under their belt and then come back home. Heck some never come back. Look at Lyle Mudford, used to fly 500s in the old deer hunting days, was then a base manager in Africa for CHC and now flying the Cranes in Sarawak for Erickson alongside other kiwis such as Peter Avery, making some very good money as well

Other experienced pilots have also bailed from NZ and are doing the tour option. Armin Egli, IJ (ian Johnston) etc are all commuting to PNG and back. Columbia Helicopters in the USA also have some kiwis there, Stu Feaver to name but one.

No matter where you go in the world, if you have minimum number of hours no one is going to just hand you a job. In the old days newbies would have no hesitation going to work for an operator as a loader driver for a year or two and get the chance to build up hours by ferrying machines, these days however the general attitude I see at the flight schools is that they are "owed" a job by an operator because they have just spent $35K or more on a CPL. And in my opinion that licence sometimes means ****e anyway depending on who your instructor was as the "experience" level of some instructors here extends to the hills around ardmore, unless you train with someone like Bruce Harvey or Simon Expensive-Flowers in Wanaka who have been there and done that.

Anyway just my two cents worth to add to the thread.

Ned

[Chairmanofthebored]

why new zealand is faaaarked

what about NEST?
They are for the most, fine companies to work for but the money is only part of the issue. The lack of Flight & Duty reg's to prevent abuse of pilots is far more problematic. Who cares if you earn $100K a year, if you have to work practically every day. Talk with any experienced NZ pilot overseas and they are all hesitant to return to a system that gives them no time off and drives them into fatigue levels that are deadly. I know an ex-CP of a major NZ EMS operator who could not get a schedule introduced to their operation to minimise fatigue due two reasons: MONEY for additional pilots and CAA blocking the changes apparently for fear of pilot abuse.??? what part of being on duty for 48hr straight is not ABUSE? This level of duty time is driving pilots to burn out and it can only be a matter of time before there is an incident or accident blamed to fatigue. Perhaps then the media will drive the change that individuals in NZ cannot seem to instigate. What is driving it? GREED. The lust for money for the individuals running the whole shonky EMS SAR system in the country. Its amazing to us over here to see the saturation of machinery dedicated to a tiny country without that much demand. take a look at the work per month of the AHRT machine - Waiheke Is. return or 'cancelled enroute'. ZZzzzzz
look at the turnover of pilots in the 'top' jobs of NZ and the number that are over here and in PNG and Canada. Ask why? according to the rest of the world NZ is the best place to live and work. Why wouldn't you take a job in your own glorious country and sacrifice 20% of your salary for the lifestyle?
I think the NZ system needs the heavy help of something like the AFAP to enforce reasonable duty times and wages, which will force consolidation of resources in the country.

[EBCAU]

COTB

You are correct that there are too many helicopters for too little work in NZ. That equals stiff competition and too little money for most in the industry.
Duty, or 'on call" times, are generally high. If you divide the time you are at the employers call by the final remuneration it is pathetic in many cases. But there is always someone waiting to fill your seat so the cycle goes on.
Decreasing the amount of allowable duty time, and therefore the requirement for more pilots, probably would make it even harder to make a living there. The limited revenue returns, already being fought over by too many operators, would have to be shared amongst more pilots so the pay would probably decrease further.

I don't see an answer myself, other than pilots refusing to take low paying jobs, but that is never going to happen. I could be classed as one of them by some standards.

I left an overseas position to try to live in NZ. The pay cut was more than 20%, and it took twice as long to earn it. Sure, the life style was better than before, but you realize that as a pilot you are sliding back in terms of living standards unless you have another income. That left going overseas again with a better appreciation of why we have to do it.

At its worst the NZ situation even affects overseas operations. So many good NZ pilots are working overseas, for what is better money for them, that this can undermine conditions for those from other nations where better conditions are expected.

Sorry I cant give any solutions. I think we, as pilots, are as much part of the problem as the operators that are there.

[HeliDriverNZ]

New Pilots

Just going back to what Ned was saying about young pilots expecting a job when they get their licence I couldn't agree more.
The company that I work for is currently looking for a new pilot for the summer and there dont seem to be any that are willing to work on the ground as a loader they expect to jump straight into a machine they seem to think that if they dont get go in the first month that it's not worth it and dont stick it out.
I personally think that it comes back to the fact that student loan's made it far too easy for people to clock up huge amount's of money without them appreciating how hard people have had to work in the past to save the money for their licence's
anyone's thoughts on this would be interesting.

[canterbury crusader]

Thats spot on

Couldnt agree more helidrivernz

From what I have seen you can expect between 10 - 30% of those that get a CPL to continue in the industry and get a flying job (30% from my course). If you want evidence of this have a look at the CAA (nz) or CASA (aus) websites and search for how many CPLs there are and then find out how many class 1 medicals.

It is by no means uncommon for newbys to loader drive for up to and over 5 years for McDonalds wages (if your lucky) and bugger all flying.

If that sounds too hard or too long there is a solution, be in the right place at the right time, easy as pie.

Offering to work for nothing may seem like a good idea but it is the reason this thread exists. "But only till I have enough hours to get a good job" you say, and then wonder why it pays so little and they end up giving it to a guy willing to do it for nothing.

We are the only ones who can increase our wages by banding together and refusing to work for less. Yeah Right

well ive gone on long enough

[TukTuk BoomBoom]

Ned

I know youre a great photographer and youve certainly seen alot of operators around the world but i can tell you that working for some of those companies on your list and going flying to do publicity shots for them are very different experiences.
Unfortunately theres a few nz companies exploiting young pilots and you really need to ask guys that have worked there before you recommend operators.
There are very few i would work for.

The thing i tell everyone is to get a working holiday visa in canada once you get a few hours (you have to be under 30yr old). Its a much better industry with real pay rates and everybody i knew had a comfortable standard of living.

[Ned-Air2Air]

Tuk Tuk - Wasnt trying to say they are the best to work for, although re reading it I should have worded it different. I meant to say that these are operators with more than one helo in their fleet therefore they would be a better option in being able to pay larger salaries. I may only be a photgrapher but sometimes that enables me to get a bit closer look into some companies than others, but not always. If I was a commercial pilot there is probably only about four on that list that I would apply to, all I was trying to do was give someone a list of some operators where they could start.

With regards to Canada I would have to agree and would also throw in Alaska as well. In fact I was out at Ardmore today and the guy who was flying HIE, the AS350 painted up in Auckland Helicopters colours has buggered off to Alaska for three months, the AS350 being left at Heliflight while he is away.

Anyway just my two cents worth.

Ned

[BigMike]

From EBCAU, "At its worst the NZ situation even affects overseas operations. So many good NZ pilots are working overseas, for what is better money for them, that this can undermine conditions for those from other nations where better conditions are expected."

This is very true. A word of warning to guys heading overseas, and those who over state there experience. You will over stay your welcome very fast if you work for less.
Ask around and find out the average pay rate for that country, the type of work you will be doing, and your experience, and go from there.

Undercutting other pilots will lead you to gainning a reputation you really do not want.

[Te_Kahu]

From whence it came.....

Ned, that was a good clarification to make. I had certainly read your post from the perspective that you were seeking comment and feedback more than endorsement of the companies that you had listed.

I think a point that might be important to make to those from other parts of the globe, including our close neighbours on the big island to the West, is from whence the helo industry in NZ grew (there are parallels to this country's EMS sector and I will deal with that next).

From the days of the late, great Bill Reid, the NZ helo industry grew on the back of primary production. That was predominantly ag work ie spraying, fertiliser, fencing and firelighting (for clearing scrub off big blocks) Companies sprung up in the sixties and thrived in the seventies - Wisharts, James Aviation, Marine Helicopers, Wanganui Aero Work.

I remember WaW coming to an A&P (Agricultural & Pastoral show)in Taumarunui (heartland Central North Island) in the late 70s/early 80s with an Hiller 12E, H269, H36 & B206 - That was a big turn out for a little town.

From 60s through into the 80's there were utility companies which had a core business of Ag Work with some other things on the side. Helicopters NZ used to a great deal more Ag work than it has done in recent years. It diversified and survived.

A lot of those pilots were farmers or sons of farmers - there are too many to name. Much of the helicopter industry was an extension, albeit a very cool one in a young lads eyes, of their rural upbringing. These were can do pragmatic poeple. To my mind that is the genesis of what people in other parts of the world, who have come into the sector through other vectors, consider NZs cavalier approach to helicopter flying. In retrospect there is probably some merit to those views. However, it was also a bit of a metaphor for a young nations can do, fix it with No 8 wire, attitude.

Then came the deer recovery phase which saw the best and the worst of helicopter aviation the world has ever seen packed into a few short years. eg H369s needing 50 hour checks almost every weekend. Wild times, lucrative times also deadly times.

Again it was a heady time based on primary production. NZ has always been good at that. Lots of meat & wool producing sheep to the acre. (As opposed to outback Oz where they have lots of acres to the sheep & at the comparative time the UK where 30 sheep which attracted so much in the way of subsidies created a profitable farm) In terms of deer, for a while we made a fortune out of an introduced pest.

The only unions and awards in that sector were in the freezing works that processed the meat.

The EMS sector in NZ has really had a similar upbringing. Firstly it grew out of Ag/utility machines being used when required to do rescue work. Often a case of drop the spray gear and scream off to meet an ambulance somewhere. They were all services that were add-ons to Commercial operations. Peter Button, Capital Helicopters, Wellington, Dennis Hartley, Heliwing, East Cape, Bill Black, et el.

The forerunner to Auckland Rescue Helicopter Trust had been around for a while, at least in the summer, growing out of the Surf LIfesaving scene on Aucklands treacherous West Coast beaches. That started in 1970 using a Hiller and a static line to pull people out of the surf.

As other services started to grow a little more sophisticated, the odd dedicated rescue helicopter started to appear.

By the late 80s and 90s when some community funding started to appear, mainly in the form of the Lotteries Commission, trusts started to appear. The Lotteries Grants Board - General Committee would not fund commercial operations, only community organisations. Then money from non-casino gaming machines (pokies or one-armed bandits) started to pour out into the community.

At the same time the fundraising arms of these organisations got more organised and sophisticated. More trusts and services appeared around the country.

Now, I think the key point that is being missed by our Australian counterparts in particular, is that while all of thise was going on there was no over-arching Government poilcy and no dedicated funding. There was and still is precious little Government funding.

There are no contracts for service for the provision of SAR/EMS/HEMS in New Zealand like there are in the UK, or various states in Australia. We have community funded organisations that get some funding from the Government.

Yes there are contracts with ACC (Accident Compensation Corporation) for accident recovery work. But that is on a fee for service basis and covers less than half the total cost of the job. The rest has to be raised form coorporate sponsors and fundraising form the public.

Yes there are contracts with various regional health boards for inter-hospital transfer work. Again what is paid does not cover the full cost of the flight.

These together, and with a little bit of Police paid for SAR work, add up to between just 25-25% of the total cost of these operations.

There is certainly no Government funding for standing or operational costs.

The public of the communities where these services operate from are the major stakeholders of those services. Do we have too many? I believe the answer is yes!
Have some made it into a business and not a community based rescue service? Again I believe the answer is yes. But there was nothing stopping them from doing this.

There was an attempt to remedy that a year or two ago with an ACC sponsorsored project called the National Air Ambulance Strategy (NAAS) That was appalling handled by ACC and reprehensibly hijacked and eventually deep-sixed via an emotive media campaign which was largely befert of facts. This campaign was orchestrated by some operators on the basis of little more than their naked self insterest.

My goodness I have rambled. To sum up then! We have had a helo sector and then a rescue helo sector which was grown from a can do kiwi attitude. It has been left to grown on its own with no over-arching national framework or policy. It is proving to be incredibly difficult to now reign in and bring some sensibleness to it. The horse has bolted if like.

This probably needs more editing and refining, but I have spent far too long on it and I too have to bolt. So I will throw it out there for comment.

TK

[Giovanni Cento Nove]

TK,
Bit much of the waipiro spill on the keyboard cuz? "Bill Reid" ???? don't you mean his old man John?
"Ko te waipiro, pera i te ahi, he pai hai pononga engari kaua hai rangatira."