Alouette
Alouette
Scalextric for Men
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Southern England outside the M25
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Alouette
Regarding the terrible shooting in Paris.. .Iff Im allowed to mention CNN; there is a photograph on todays web site.. .It appears to be an Alouette; landing in a street at night.. .A good image recorded: of a shocking scenario.. .Comments anyone?
I too was amazed to see the Allouette landing in amongst lamp posts in a city street at night - Rather them than me.. .. .Apologies for going slightly off the thred, but can anyone remind me of the current rules (UK) of flying VFR at night. My understanding of CAA ops was that there is no VFR at night only Special VFR under which rules I have flown many times. The problem comes that SVFR only exists in controlled airspace so how do people get around that rule to fly single engine helicopters at night outside of controlled airspace. For that matter, under what rules was Mathew Harding's helicopter flying when it crashed (1996 I think) flying from Coventry to Heathrow at night in a Twin Squirrel but without an IFR rated pilot ?
Join Date: Jul 2002
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SA 319B - Alouette III
Hi all,
just got put in the driver seat of an old (actually at less then 2500 TT, a rather new French Lady...) Alouette III, Ex Spanish Airforce, now in private hands.
I wonder if there is anyone on Rotorheads who has a couple of hours in this helicopter!
3top
just got put in the driver seat of an old (actually at less then 2500 TT, a rather new French Lady...) Alouette III, Ex Spanish Airforce, now in private hands.
I wonder if there is anyone on Rotorheads who has a couple of hours in this helicopter!
3top
Last edited by 3top; 2nd Jul 2003 at 10:17.
I have a few hundred hours on type, mostly instructing, from a few years ago, but remember it well. A fine machine and very nice in the mountains. E-mail me if you want to discuss.
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Thanks for the replies!
Idlestop: Please send me a reply to [email protected]
I could not send you an e-mail via PPRUNE as you specified in your personal reference, that you would not like to receive e-mails this way!
Anyone else!
3top
Idlestop: Please send me a reply to [email protected]
I could not send you an e-mail via PPRUNE as you specified in your personal reference, that you would not like to receive e-mails this way!
Anyone else!
3top
Join Date: Jul 2003
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Any views or opinions about the Alouette II ? A bit older but seems a good solid machine, similar attributes to Scout/Wasp?
Reliable? Safe? Safe in inexperienced hands?
Thanks in advance...
Reliable? Safe? Safe in inexperienced hands?
Thanks in advance...
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JFDI: I am not familiar with the Alouette II, but a friend of friend is flying a Lama as a cropduster in Costa Rica. Obviously the Al II has the same turbine as the SA316-Alouette III had - a Turbomeca Artouise or so, roughly 500 hp.
The SA 319B Alouette III and the Lama have a Turbomeca Astazou or something like that with around 800 hp. I understand that the max gross weight did not go up a lot but the high altidude capabilities are tremendous on the "new" engines (....these things are roughly 35 years old!!). The Lama and the Alouette III are pretty much matched speedwise. The Alouette I fly (mainly as a Safety Pilot for the private owner) has metric speed indication and redlines at 220 km/h. I consider the fixed landing gear on the Lama an advantage, as the 3 wheels on the Alouette III and the 3 blade rotor take a lot of attention or you are in ground resonance in a blink of the eye!
I am waiting to hear from Idle Stop...
3top
The SA 319B Alouette III and the Lama have a Turbomeca Astazou or something like that with around 800 hp. I understand that the max gross weight did not go up a lot but the high altidude capabilities are tremendous on the "new" engines (....these things are roughly 35 years old!!). The Lama and the Alouette III are pretty much matched speedwise. The Alouette I fly (mainly as a Safety Pilot for the private owner) has metric speed indication and redlines at 220 km/h. I consider the fixed landing gear on the Lama an advantage, as the 3 wheels on the Alouette III and the 3 blade rotor take a lot of attention or you are in ground resonance in a blink of the eye!
I am waiting to hear from Idle Stop...
3top
Join Date: May 2001
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Funny story...
Two Dollar Alouette IIs crashed close to each other at around 11,000 feet in the Andes.
One, slightly heavy, just ran out of puff at the wrong time.
The other? Well, the insurance company insisted on a photograph of the wreckage...
True.
Two Dollar Alouette IIs crashed close to each other at around 11,000 feet in the Andes.
One, slightly heavy, just ran out of puff at the wrong time.
The other? Well, the insurance company insisted on a photograph of the wreckage...
True.
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Flew the Alouette III 316 and Lama in Iran, about 3000 hours and the 319 in Indonesia. For me it was one of the safest helicopters I have flown, it just oozed confidence. We had over 36 of them and in the 5 years I was in Iran we only had only 2 engine failures, and in one of them the engine was restarted on the ground (an engineer was on board) and returned to base.
We used them for everything including sling, building power lines between 10,000 and 15,000 ft, siesmic, crew changes, offshore and they did not miss a beat. We even had landings on the top of Damavand at 19,000 ft with a passenger who was going to jump off and hang glide back down, plus photo shoots etc.
I have never come across ground resonance mentioned with the Alouette III before and I found the 3 wheels very handy in the mountains for some of the landings on pinnacles with the wheels either side, no place for a skidded aircraft. I have the photo's to prove it!
Those were happy days.
We used them for everything including sling, building power lines between 10,000 and 15,000 ft, siesmic, crew changes, offshore and they did not miss a beat. We even had landings on the top of Damavand at 19,000 ft with a passenger who was going to jump off and hang glide back down, plus photo shoots etc.
I have never come across ground resonance mentioned with the Alouette III before and I found the 3 wheels very handy in the mountains for some of the landings on pinnacles with the wheels either side, no place for a skidded aircraft. I have the photo's to prove it!
Those were happy days.
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OOPS:
Thanks for the response!
About the ground resonance, I guess it is me then. I only got it twice within the first 40 min in this aircraft ever, landing on a hard surface trying to set it down smooth. It did not fully develop, but it started. Solution was to dump the collective fairly quickly on the landing. The POH states to pick it up and set it down "without hesitation". At this point I have only 7 hrs in "La Francesa", as the owner calls it affectionally.
Your comment on landing on pinacles with 3 wheel gear has merit, rememering how often it is necessary to reposition with skids to get acceptable skid contact in this occasions.
I am not so confident as you yet, to me it is still a strange bird.
How tolerant is it on play in the many joints and connections, like TR-pitch-bearings, etc.
Specific question: .
Is the A III a bit sticky on the pedals, especially in hover?
To the engine failure:
It seems Aerospatiale was very confident in their product:
The POH states under emergency procedures:
"Apart from fuel supply failure, engine flame out in flight can only result from mishandling of the controls by the pilot: closing of fuel shut off cock, actuation of engine selector switch when fuel flow control lever is in closed position."
There is another question to this: No one could answer it around here. If you actuate the engine selector switch when the fuel flow control lever is fully engaged, will the engine flame out or not?
I consider this a vital info as the engine selector switch is right there in the middle of the panel and could be moved fairly easily by accident.
Thanks for your time guys!
3top
Thanks for the response!
About the ground resonance, I guess it is me then. I only got it twice within the first 40 min in this aircraft ever, landing on a hard surface trying to set it down smooth. It did not fully develop, but it started. Solution was to dump the collective fairly quickly on the landing. The POH states to pick it up and set it down "without hesitation". At this point I have only 7 hrs in "La Francesa", as the owner calls it affectionally.
Your comment on landing on pinacles with 3 wheel gear has merit, rememering how often it is necessary to reposition with skids to get acceptable skid contact in this occasions.
I am not so confident as you yet, to me it is still a strange bird.
How tolerant is it on play in the many joints and connections, like TR-pitch-bearings, etc.
Specific question: .
Is the A III a bit sticky on the pedals, especially in hover?
To the engine failure:
It seems Aerospatiale was very confident in their product:
The POH states under emergency procedures:
"Apart from fuel supply failure, engine flame out in flight can only result from mishandling of the controls by the pilot: closing of fuel shut off cock, actuation of engine selector switch when fuel flow control lever is in closed position."
There is another question to this: No one could answer it around here. If you actuate the engine selector switch when the fuel flow control lever is fully engaged, will the engine flame out or not?
I consider this a vital info as the engine selector switch is right there in the middle of the panel and could be moved fairly easily by accident.
Thanks for your time guys!
3top
Last edited by 3top; 5th Jul 2003 at 22:19.
Ground resonance:
The Alouette is not quite as suseptable to ground resonance as the Lama but they share many of the same causes.
1. Improper greasing of the main rotor grips...If done wrong ithis can force grease past a seal and fill the grip putting the M/R system out of balance. The best test for this is to tap the grip with a metal object. A wedding ring works fine if you are so equipped. A normal grip will have a clear ring to it while the grip with grease will not.
2. Blade spacing cable mounts are not free.....Check to make sure they are lubricated and pivot freely.
3. Improper inflation of the shock struts....make sure they are right and equal. Same goes for the tires.
4. A weak or bad dampner..... drain, refill and bleed. Check the timing on them and make sure there is no air in them. This is an over night procedure.
5. Proper tension on the fuel tank support straps....Check their tension and security. This is more important than you would think.
Most ground resonance problems relate to one or a combination of these factors. However pilot technique is important. some pilots always seemed to have problems while others seldom did. Play with the pedals a little while your on the ground. Loading or unloading the tail rotor can affect resonance.
I'll try and remember some more. I haven't flown one since 1997 and my memory was the 2nd thing I lost.
Sticky pedals
The pedals should be smooth through their full range of travel. The most common problem are the "stack bearings" located in blade grips. There are three in each grip. They are the feathering bearings in this system. They can be installed upside down, causing problems, and they do wear out. The most I ever heard of from one set was 600 hours of heavy use. More common, with a GOOD mechanic was 400 hours. Usually the 1st indication was called "notching". The tail rotor would develope a resistance to pitch change that the pilot had to push through. Once past this area they again became smooth and easy. The mechanic could rotate the stack bearings and nurse a few more hours out of them but it was time to order new ones.
There is a hyd dampner on the tail rotor system located under the floor that has a quaint French name (whodaily???) that I can't remember now. It was very rare to have problems but it could also cause the resistance you talk about.
Now for the easy one. If the fuel flow is fully engaged it has passed a micro switch mounted on the fuel flow assy. It's called the two thirds micro switch and it's purpose is to prevent electrical engine shut down. If I am not seriously wrong, the big red "cherry" light on the panel is wired to this switch. I am away from my fight manual but I'm sure the check list calls for a check of the 2/3 switch prior to take off. If the flight manual doesn't call for this check you should do it anyway. I do know that every Allouette and/or Lama pilot I worked with checked it. Fully engage the fuel control and turn the switch off. Nothing should happen. If it does the 2/3 micro swtch is at fault.
Here's an interesting little foot note. You need at least 17-18 volts to shut the engine down. Less voltage than that will not operate the electric fuel cock. I once ferried one home with out a generator. By the time I got to the hangar I only had 15 volts and could not shut the engine off until I used the manual fuel shut off. This was done to completely remove the overly complex start system from interfering with engine operation.
When I went to Lama school in 1976 Turbomeca bragged that there had NEVER been an inflight Artouste III failure. Of course at that time all engines were sent back to France for overhaul. As soon as they let an un-named engine shop in the US overhaul the engines that record fell.
The Alloutte and Lama both require an EXPERIENCED mechanic. I CAN'T STRESS THIS ENOUGH!!! The machines can make 200 max power lifts a day, day after day, with the right mechanic and a steady supply of spares. However a pristine machine can be a flying junk pile in a 100 hours with out the right maintenance. The easy part is, what the manuals say is what to do and use. If some of the tolerances seem sloppy don't worry about it. If they are within specs they are good. You just have to keep a close eye on them as the machines are dirty (grease, 10 wt oil, 90 wt oil, and turbine soot) and this accelerates wear. Use PLENTY of lubricants, they're not that hard to clean and the components will last much longer.
If you have any thing else I would be more than happy to try and answer what I can. I just won't be able to access my books until I get back to the US the middle of the month. One of the best French mechanics I ever worked with is working down in Chile right now. How far are you from there?
Have a great time! They are great machines, built to work hard!!
Jim
The Alouette is not quite as suseptable to ground resonance as the Lama but they share many of the same causes.
1. Improper greasing of the main rotor grips...If done wrong ithis can force grease past a seal and fill the grip putting the M/R system out of balance. The best test for this is to tap the grip with a metal object. A wedding ring works fine if you are so equipped. A normal grip will have a clear ring to it while the grip with grease will not.
2. Blade spacing cable mounts are not free.....Check to make sure they are lubricated and pivot freely.
3. Improper inflation of the shock struts....make sure they are right and equal. Same goes for the tires.
4. A weak or bad dampner..... drain, refill and bleed. Check the timing on them and make sure there is no air in them. This is an over night procedure.
5. Proper tension on the fuel tank support straps....Check their tension and security. This is more important than you would think.
Most ground resonance problems relate to one or a combination of these factors. However pilot technique is important. some pilots always seemed to have problems while others seldom did. Play with the pedals a little while your on the ground. Loading or unloading the tail rotor can affect resonance.
I'll try and remember some more. I haven't flown one since 1997 and my memory was the 2nd thing I lost.
Sticky pedals
The pedals should be smooth through their full range of travel. The most common problem are the "stack bearings" located in blade grips. There are three in each grip. They are the feathering bearings in this system. They can be installed upside down, causing problems, and they do wear out. The most I ever heard of from one set was 600 hours of heavy use. More common, with a GOOD mechanic was 400 hours. Usually the 1st indication was called "notching". The tail rotor would develope a resistance to pitch change that the pilot had to push through. Once past this area they again became smooth and easy. The mechanic could rotate the stack bearings and nurse a few more hours out of them but it was time to order new ones.
There is a hyd dampner on the tail rotor system located under the floor that has a quaint French name (whodaily???) that I can't remember now. It was very rare to have problems but it could also cause the resistance you talk about.
Now for the easy one. If the fuel flow is fully engaged it has passed a micro switch mounted on the fuel flow assy. It's called the two thirds micro switch and it's purpose is to prevent electrical engine shut down. If I am not seriously wrong, the big red "cherry" light on the panel is wired to this switch. I am away from my fight manual but I'm sure the check list calls for a check of the 2/3 switch prior to take off. If the flight manual doesn't call for this check you should do it anyway. I do know that every Allouette and/or Lama pilot I worked with checked it. Fully engage the fuel control and turn the switch off. Nothing should happen. If it does the 2/3 micro swtch is at fault.
Here's an interesting little foot note. You need at least 17-18 volts to shut the engine down. Less voltage than that will not operate the electric fuel cock. I once ferried one home with out a generator. By the time I got to the hangar I only had 15 volts and could not shut the engine off until I used the manual fuel shut off. This was done to completely remove the overly complex start system from interfering with engine operation.
When I went to Lama school in 1976 Turbomeca bragged that there had NEVER been an inflight Artouste III failure. Of course at that time all engines were sent back to France for overhaul. As soon as they let an un-named engine shop in the US overhaul the engines that record fell.
The Alloutte and Lama both require an EXPERIENCED mechanic. I CAN'T STRESS THIS ENOUGH!!! The machines can make 200 max power lifts a day, day after day, with the right mechanic and a steady supply of spares. However a pristine machine can be a flying junk pile in a 100 hours with out the right maintenance. The easy part is, what the manuals say is what to do and use. If some of the tolerances seem sloppy don't worry about it. If they are within specs they are good. You just have to keep a close eye on them as the machines are dirty (grease, 10 wt oil, 90 wt oil, and turbine soot) and this accelerates wear. Use PLENTY of lubricants, they're not that hard to clean and the components will last much longer.
If you have any thing else I would be more than happy to try and answer what I can. I just won't be able to access my books until I get back to the US the middle of the month. One of the best French mechanics I ever worked with is working down in Chile right now. How far are you from there?
Have a great time! They are great machines, built to work hard!!
Jim
Last edited by Lama Bear; 4th Jul 2003 at 22:39.
A lot as been said so far .
It is 100% true good experienced enginners are needed...also take care of spares and make sure you can track their origin (specialy on Alouette 2)
Artouste and Astazou engines are very reliable, but since a few years they have been experiencing failures that never happened before, as airframes, they are becoming old and the overhauling personal is coming of "another generation"
By the way the yaw damper under the cockpit floor is called "houdaille" (not sure of the spelling)
But what a fun to fly a long line in a Lama without doors !!!!
It is 100% true good experienced enginners are needed...also take care of spares and make sure you can track their origin (specialy on Alouette 2)
Artouste and Astazou engines are very reliable, but since a few years they have been experiencing failures that never happened before, as airframes, they are becoming old and the overhauling personal is coming of "another generation"
By the way the yaw damper under the cockpit floor is called "houdaille" (not sure of the spelling)
But what a fun to fly a long line in a Lama without doors !!!!