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Old 25th Jul 2005, 17:09   #1 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: USA
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FAA ATP (H) Conversion To UK JAA ATP (H)

I am planning to do the FAA to JAA conversion soon and have many conflicting stories of how to do it and how many exams need to be taken.

Before I contact the CAA at Gatwick I would like to pose a few questions to those of you who have done the conversion since Europe went from CAA to JAA:

1. How many exams need to be done if you allready hold an FAA ATP 3000+ hours, 2000+ of which are turbine, 500+ of which are multi crew (second in command) in S76.?

2. Which subjects of the 14 written exams need to be done?

3. What "credits" did the UK CAA / JAA give to a person holding an FAA ATP 3000+ hours (as detailed above)?

Any good info is always appreciated
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Old 25th Jul 2005, 20:33   #2 (permalink)
 
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It's all in section G3.5 of LASORS The experience requirements referred to in JAR-FCL 2.280 are those for a new JAA ATPL ie those in section G3.2.

Basically you need to do thirteen exams. Under the transitional arrangements you do all the fixed wing papers (14) excluding Principles of Flight and Performance but including a Helicopter Principles of Flight 'in the style of the JAA exam'.

For exemptions see G3.5
Quote:
Note: ATPL (H) holders who have a minimum of 1000
hours flying experience as PIC or Co-pilot on
multi-pilot helicopters and hold a valid multi-pilot type
rating for the helicopter to be used for the ATPL (H)
skill test and have at least 500 hours experience as
pilot on that type, will be exempted from the
requirements to complete an approved TRTO course
or undergo approved training prior to undertaking the
theoretical knowledge examinations, and the skill test.
Pilots with less than 500 hours experience as pilot on
the type to be used for the ATPL (H) skill test will be
exempted from the requirements to undergo approved
training prior to undertaking the theoretical knowledge
examinations but will still be required to complete an
approved type rating course. However, the course may
be reduced to take account of previous experience on
the same type upon recommendation by the TRTO to
PLD.
The holder of a current and valid ATPL (H) who does
not qualify for the grant of a JAR-FCL ATPL (H), as
detailed above, can still apply for a JAR-FCL CPL (H)/
IR, details can be found in Section D3.5.
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Old 26th Jul 2005, 06:27   #3 (permalink)
 
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The UK has yet to come into the 21st century.

13 exams! Unbelieveable. It's basically...."we don't know if you know your stuff so we will test you anyway..."

As Puntosaurus laid out, the only breathing space you will get is for the skills test (flight test).

Also, the theory can be done one of two ways. Integrated (full-time) or modular (part-time).

One of the PPRuNe supporters (Bristol Ground School) have a modular theory course on offer whereby you can do distance learning then spend two weeks with them prior to the exams - its all on the website.

Cost of manuals, etc £1900.

For what its worth.
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Old 5th Nov 2005, 13:36   #4 (permalink)
 
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FAA ATP Conversion To JAA ATP...Rumours

Is there any substance to the rumours that there are talks of a more harmonious conversion from FAA ATP to the European JAA ATP?

I am hearing that there are talks of a "world" licence or a rotorcraft conversion that will not require all 13 written exams to be done - more like just the principle of flight and air law to be taken?

I currently hold the FAA ATP with 4000+ hours flying corporate medium twins IFR and am a little surprised that the only route available right now is for me to start from scratch again!

I have figured out that Bristol Ground School is a great place to study for the writtens if I have to go down the "start from scratch" route, but if any of you JAA pilots know of other avenues I need to explore in order to gain the conversion .......... please let me know,.

Thanks in advance for your help

Last edited by flyingtonka; 5th Nov 2005 at 13:51.
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Old 5th Nov 2005, 13:47   #5 (permalink)

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Haven't heard the rumour. I can understand Air Law having to be taken for each country and I would have thought Communications would be imprtant but Principles of Flight? I know I'm merely a trainee CPL but surely they would be the same all over the world?

Cheers

Whirls
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Old 5th Nov 2005, 14:18   #6 (permalink)
 
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Flying tonka.

Welcome to the land of "you don't know crap until you have been given a UK CAA frontal labotomy".

I posted an earlier topic regarding some of the useless information required by the ATPL(H) syllabus and most agreed. I am not a permanent part of the UK helicopter scene anymore these days but wanted to ask the question of how the industry allowed these absolutely ridiculous requirements to be implemented by the CAA.

Sorry for ranting on. The answer to your question is - THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS!!! All 13 exams for the ATPL(H) PLUS an IR and all must be done within 3 years otherwise you turn into a pumpkin (could be 5 years - can't quite remember).

You will also have to find out how much flying training you need to do to attempt the flight test. This will be assessed by the head of flying training at a flying school.

Sorry for the doom and gloom.
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Old 5th Nov 2005, 14:31   #7 (permalink)
 
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Ok, so what's the process to change the rules? Why doesn't industry push for this or is it because of a vested interest in keeping the status-quo?

UK to Australia is only an Air-law exam and flight-test, and same to most other places. Why isn't this recipical? Does the UK, and JAA in general, really think that making overseas qualified pilots re-sit all the exams again have any real merit, other than to line the theory school's pockets? Look at the rules for type ratings, what a joke. A guy with less than 500 hours on type has to re-do the rating in the UK to see if he's up to standard... your system is simply ridiculous.

Last edited by BigMike; 5th Nov 2005 at 15:05.
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Old 5th Nov 2005, 15:03   #8 (permalink)
 
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Flyingtonka ......

Have been in the exact same situation with about the same experience. I would suggest you contact the CAA and apply for an assessment - I did this and was exempt from the navs but had to do all the techs which is at least a bit of a break. The only thing is that it was back in 1995 ( pre - JAA ) so it is probably different now but worth a try !

On the flying side , I saw Mike Smith at Heliair who thought that with my experience I shouldn't have to do anything !!! He found a reg. that said as long as I had more than 50hrs on my FAA ATPL they would give me a CAA one. I ended up doing a general handling flight in a B206 and got my ATPL.

Bit I think it has all changed with twin time and IR these days - but still maybe worth a go. Best of luck.

Tony.
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Old 5th Nov 2005, 15:10   #9 (permalink)
 
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Location: USA
Posts: 43
Good Old Blighty

Yep.........the rules are typically English!

Jump through the hoops laddie!

I am from the UK and wish to return to fly there, I have flown numerous aircraft while in instrument meteorlogical conditions within complex airspace such as Kennedy International (JFK) to name but a few.

But, if I wish to fly back in the UK I have to start from scatch as a new boy?

We do not make the rules, we adhere to them, but someone somewhere in the JAA system should get real and make the conversion for experienced pilots a bit more practical and alot more realistic. There should be a governing body that regulates licence conversions and make them reciprocal and comparable in standards to participating countries worldwide.

Any good comments from experienced European pilots out there?

Fly Safe Guys.

Last edited by flyingtonka; 5th Nov 2005 at 15:20.
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Old 5th Nov 2005, 20:45   #10 (permalink)
 
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Flyig Tonka.

Like you, I am from the UK currently working here in the US flying a AS350. I am going for my ATPL checkride some time in December, and at some stage would like perhaps to return home and fly there. To be near my family. So I would welcome any advice to help convert over to a JAA ATPL, if that's ever possible. Bit to fat for hoop jumping now, and my poor knees too..

Darren
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Old 6th Nov 2005, 09:12   #11 (permalink)
 
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JUST DO THE CPL

9 EXAMS.....AT DRAGON HELICOPTERS....YOU DONT NEED THE ATPL..JAA..CPL WILL DO....YOU HAVE THE HOURS TO TAKE IT THROUGH....LUX
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Old 6th Nov 2005, 09:19   #12 (permalink)

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Luxstar,

if these chaps already have FAA ATPL licences, why should they go back to CPL and not use their instrument rating. The CPL will also restrict the mass of aircraft which they are entitled to fly (and, for which, they may be already type-rated).

In their circumstances, a CPL would not be the way to go. I should also point out that there is more than one ground school provider for CPL(H).

Cheers

Whirls
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Old 6th Nov 2005, 09:22   #13 (permalink)
jab
 
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I am also trying to get the JAA ATP, I have the FAA ATP but as you have found, that means nothing in the UK. I have investigated the ground schools in the UK but there are also ground schools in the US which offer the JAA exams. The schools in the US are a lot cheaper than in the UK. So far, I have only found schools which do the fixed-wing ATP, not helicopters. I believe there are only two of the 13 or 14 examinations which are different for helicopters.

Does anyone know if there are any schools in the US where you can do the helicopter examinations and preferably the flight test too? I have been in contact with HAI in Titusville, FL and they can only do the flight test, not the theory.

Please help!
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Old 6th Nov 2005, 13:40   #14 (permalink)
 
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U.S Schools For JAA Theory

The exams (until modified by JAA) are the exact same ones for fixed wingwith the exception of principles of flight. The JAA has some drafts for the helicopter exams but are not yet implemented.
HAI in Titusville does the theory and the flight tests. Their ground school lasts for approx nine months because the ground school is run in conjunction with the Bristows flight training programme.

I do not know of any other place offering the JAA exams. If you know any in the New York area........ please let me know.

Also, if anyone knows of ANY schools offering the JAA exams anywhere in the U.S, please let me know.

Tailwinds,
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Old 6th Nov 2005, 14:46   #15 (permalink)
 
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JAR exams

Hi FT,

I did the helicopter JAA/FAA combined course at HAI, and the the facilities there are excellent, and the staff very knowledgeable.

The course is more helicopter oriented than you've been told, Principles of Flight, Mass & Balance, Performance are all helicopter only, and the overall question bank is increasing rotary based, judging by my exams Vs the previous students. The course has changed a bit since then I've heard, as JAR keep moving the goalposts, but nothing too drastic. Contact George Bedford or Sam Willenbacher at HAI (www.heli.com)

You can also study yourself by distance learning with Oxford Aviation (www.oxfordaviation.net), the cost is comparable, however you will need to go and sit with them for some refresher ground school before sitting the exams, and you need to sit them in the UK. I've seen their material and it is first rate, some excellent interactive software in addition to the books.

One last thing though - you can learn the subjects back to front as I did, and still be challenged by the wording of some of the questions - you NEED to be able to have access to feedback questions to learn how they like to phrase things. In Air Law in particular this can mean the difference between pass and fail.

Most people at HAI's more recent courses that studied hard averaged in the 90% range for pretty much everything.

Good luck with your studies!
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Old 6th Nov 2005, 20:35   #16 (permalink)
 
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Check out www.caa.co.uk/srg for information direct from the CAA.

I believe it's similar to what I discovered for a f/w ATPL. One can swap a non-JAR ICAO ATPL for a UK ATPL with just 3 writtens but then that's only valid on UK-registered aircraft. For JAR validity one has to do all 14 tests.

I have a Nigerian ATPL (Airplane) so that was what I was asking about. I don't think the FAA license does much for you, although I did once get a German CPL-IFR (Airplane) on the strength of one.

Another snag is that one must do an initial Class 1 medical with the CAA at Aviation House, Gatwick Airport, London. That costs about 275 pounds, including a preliminary eye examination with a civilian optometrist. One must pre-pay when booking, by credit card. At least there is a free bus service from the South Terminal of Gatwick Airport that saves you a taxi fare.

Since everyone got on this JAR bandwagon things seem to have really tightened up. Good luck!

Check out Naples Air Center for US-based training. They have an advert on the training part of this website, actually.
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Old 7th Nov 2005, 02:16   #17 (permalink)

 
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I did hear a rumour about a more harmonious conversion, but it won't be any time soon

Phil
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Old 7th Nov 2005, 18:25   #18 (permalink)
wolferj
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ok I do 14 writtens and then what???


where do I rent the jaa examiner= the Embraer 145 sim???
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Old 7th Nov 2005, 21:46   #19 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Mmmm....

Well if you think having to do the exams is tough...

I hold various bit of paper from all around the world... and have maintained a current Ist class medical from either Australia or the USA (or as required) in order to exercise the privillages of those various bits of paper except ONE ...

Yep my UK ATPL-H which I obtained in 1980 has expired, and due to not having a UK CAA designated medical examiner accessable/available in my area (of Australia) I have been informed by the "Airship Pilots" of the UK CAA FCL that in order to renew that licence I have to present myself to the medical section at Gatwick, in person so that they my count my arm and legs and hold some fingers in the air (for me to count no doubt!) and then watch me write out a cheque (to prove literacy?) for an exorbitant amount so as to renew that "bit of paper".

You would have thought a 1st class medical was a 1st class medical ??? particularly the (Ozzie ?)

So say $2000 for the airfare, £350+ for the medical £??? for the licence renewal, accomodation and expenses £??? ....

A rough guess would be $5000 aussies for a licence renewal ???

"Howzat"! (AND we let them win the Ashes this year!)



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Old 7th Nov 2005, 22:14   #20 (permalink)
 
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BigMike, let’s see if we can answer all your questions.
Quote:
Ok, so what's the process to change the rules?
There isn’t one. The CAA know everything, they never make mistakes, so nobody will ever want any rules the CAA promulgate to be changed.
Quote:
Why doesn't industry push for this or is it because of a vested interest in keeping the status-quo?
During the development of the JARs, input for flight crew licensing requirements was sought almost exclusively from the flight training industry. More training equates to more money for this industry.
Quote:
UK to Australia is only an Air-law exam and flight-test, and same to most other places. Why isn't this recipical?
Because then everybody would run off to some place where they’d get realistic, useful training without heaps of additional trivia they’d never use after passing the exam, and pay normal rates for it, leaving the overpriced nitpickers in the JAA zone without their guaranteed customers.
Quote:
Does the UK, and JAA in general, really think that making overseas qualified pilots re-sit all the exams again have any real merit, other than to line the theory school's pockets?
Well, yes. Other than the theory school, you also have to pay the CAA to sit these exams, which at 13 exams X a pretty penny = heaps of dosh.
Quote:
Look at the rules for type ratings, what a joke. A guy with less than 500 hours on type has to re-do the rating in the UK to see if he's up to standard... your system is simply ridiculous.
Now look here old boy! WE invented flying, don’t you forget it, so we know what’s best and everybody knows you pay for the best and if you don’t want the best then frankly we don’t want you around I tell you these colonials another brandy James…
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