HEMS/SAR Duty time!
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HEMS/SAR Duty time!
Does anyone know if there is any guidelines or research for how much a pilot should fly annually (minimum) to keep the touch and be safe, not getting rusty?
I'm working for a company doing HEMS and due to national legislation (JAA Country) we have a maximum Duty Time of 192 hrs/month. When we are Stand-by on the base all the stand-by time is calculated as Duty-time. It means we are working only 4 days (24 hrs standby on base) 2 times per month.
We are not a very busy base and every crew (2 pilot crew) is flying appr. 50-60 hours a year! It means that every pilot get some hands on flying only about 30 hrs a year. When we are flying is usually very demanding flying, usually dark and over hostile terrain.
My concern is, because of very strikt (stupid) national legislation for Duty time the pilots gets rusty...I think that if you are a Professional pilot you should fly AT LEAST 100 hrs. annually hands on!
Does anybody knows of any guidelines/studies about minimum annual flying time etc.
Thanks in advance,
Vertolot
I'm working for a company doing HEMS and due to national legislation (JAA Country) we have a maximum Duty Time of 192 hrs/month. When we are Stand-by on the base all the stand-by time is calculated as Duty-time. It means we are working only 4 days (24 hrs standby on base) 2 times per month.
We are not a very busy base and every crew (2 pilot crew) is flying appr. 50-60 hours a year! It means that every pilot get some hands on flying only about 30 hrs a year. When we are flying is usually very demanding flying, usually dark and over hostile terrain.
My concern is, because of very strikt (stupid) national legislation for Duty time the pilots gets rusty...I think that if you are a Professional pilot you should fly AT LEAST 100 hrs. annually hands on!
Does anybody knows of any guidelines/studies about minimum annual flying time etc.
Thanks in advance,
Vertolot
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Re: HEMS/SAR Duty time!
Cannot help you with the studies, but in Australia some Operators are using a "Fatigue Management System" (FMS) in stead of the normal duty and flight time limits. Usually Standby time is not included in the duty (work time) as long as the requirements of rest and split shifts are adhered to. Beware, this can work both ways; your boss can have you working more (while keeping under the FMS limit) but if its done right it benifits both parties.
You should always have an escape clause though. If your fatigued and still under any calculated limits then you don't fly. This is where the Risk Management decisions come in.
You should always have an escape clause though. If your fatigued and still under any calculated limits then you don't fly. This is where the Risk Management decisions come in.
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Re: HEMS/SAR Duty time!
Thanks 800 for your reply! Do you know where I could find out more about the "Fatigue Management System" FMS?
Also refering to the original question. For example in many other countries in Europe (JAA) they calculate the Stanby by time as 50% working time (For example when you are resting at night and no missions) and that make more sens already! Also in many cases they take that particular bases needs/circumstanses in account when setting the Work and Duty time limitations ie. busy base flying 1000 hrs per year or a not that busy base flying for example 400 hrs a year.
In the JAA word they haven't manage to agree upon similar Duty and Work time regulations (yet) as far as I understand. And its up to the national CAA to set up the regulations.
Thanks
Also refering to the original question. For example in many other countries in Europe (JAA) they calculate the Stanby by time as 50% working time (For example when you are resting at night and no missions) and that make more sens already! Also in many cases they take that particular bases needs/circumstanses in account when setting the Work and Duty time limitations ie. busy base flying 1000 hrs per year or a not that busy base flying for example 400 hrs a year.
In the JAA word they haven't manage to agree upon similar Duty and Work time regulations (yet) as far as I understand. And its up to the national CAA to set up the regulations.
Thanks
Re: HEMS/SAR Duty time!
Vetolot:
Obviously too many pilots scrambling for too few hours??????
The first thing I would do is to get rid of your standby system. This would then mean you would have to go to a longer shift pattern or, 24hr cover. This will do away with some of the pilots and give the remainder more flying hours.
OR,
Your unit can't be doing enough hours to justify its existence. Scrap the helo!!
OR,
Insist with management that each of your pilots does 'x' hours / month training (day and night) to keep your hand in.
Obviously too many pilots scrambling for too few hours??????
The first thing I would do is to get rid of your standby system. This would then mean you would have to go to a longer shift pattern or, 24hr cover. This will do away with some of the pilots and give the remainder more flying hours.
OR,
Your unit can't be doing enough hours to justify its existence. Scrap the helo!!
OR,
Insist with management that each of your pilots does 'x' hours / month training (day and night) to keep your hand in.
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Re: HEMS/SAR Duty time!
Hi Thomas coupling,
The problem we have is the local CAA. They have done very strikt unflexibile Flight/Duty time legislation that don't fit our operation.
The maximum flight time we are allowed is not a problem
, we are only flying in average 5 hrs/month
!!!! The problem is the Duty time.
We are working a 4 day shift at the time (max allowable), then we need to have off at least 4 days off before the next 4 days(24hrs) shift. These two 4 day shift is all we are allowed to work per month (2 x 24 x 4= 192 hrs)!!!!! There is not to much balance with 5 hrs flying/192 hrs. duty time, the biggest problem to this is that the way Duty time is calculated in my opininon is not right. Even at night when we are sleeping (requaired rest time by legislation have to be counted as Duty time
as per local CAA).
The local CAA will not listen to us for flexiblity, they just think they have created the most safe Duty/Flight time legislation in the world. When in fact they are making our operation unsafe when the pilots are not flying enough!
Is there anyway an operator can affect legislation made by local/national CAA that are not safe....?? Or is the CAA always the final "God" even if there decissions are not good and safe?
The problem we have is the local CAA. They have done very strikt unflexibile Flight/Duty time legislation that don't fit our operation.
The maximum flight time we are allowed is not a problem
, we are only flying in average 5 hrs/month !!!! The problem is the Duty time.We are working a 4 day shift at the time (max allowable), then we need to have off at least 4 days off before the next 4 days(24hrs) shift. These two 4 day shift is all we are allowed to work per month (2 x 24 x 4= 192 hrs)!!!!! There is not to much balance with 5 hrs flying/192 hrs. duty time, the biggest problem to this is that the way Duty time is calculated in my opininon is not right. Even at night when we are sleeping (requaired rest time by legislation have to be counted as Duty time
as per local CAA).The local CAA will not listen to us for flexiblity, they just think they have created the most safe Duty/Flight time legislation in the world. When in fact they are making our operation unsafe when the pilots are not flying enough!
Is there anyway an operator can affect legislation made by local/national CAA that are not safe....?? Or is the CAA always the final "God" even if there decissions are not good and safe?
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Re: HEMS/SAR Duty time!
vertolot
Stop blaming the regulators for enforcing sensible legislation, legislation that has been hard won and needed , maybe not exactly in your case at present but things have a way of changing dramaticaly in aviation and next year you might be posting on how overworked you are and where are the regulators to protect you.
These regulation were probably in place when your company won the contract and should have been accounted for when planning establishment figures, if so, either the work has dried up dramatically (not a bad thing considering you role) or the work level has remained unchanged and no account taken for currency training when your company tendered for the work in the first place.
I see this all the time in my role, where concessions are given to help the situation with the company and then when the tide turns and hours flown are bouncing off the limits, the company squirms and squeals out of its obligations to fix it with the same zeal.
MAxNg
Stop blaming the regulators for enforcing sensible legislation, legislation that has been hard won and needed , maybe not exactly in your case at present but things have a way of changing dramaticaly in aviation and next year you might be posting on how overworked you are and where are the regulators to protect you.
These regulation were probably in place when your company won the contract and should have been accounted for when planning establishment figures, if so, either the work has dried up dramatically (not a bad thing considering you role) or the work level has remained unchanged and no account taken for currency training when your company tendered for the work in the first place.
I see this all the time in my role, where concessions are given to help the situation with the company and then when the tide turns and hours flown are bouncing off the limits, the company squirms and squeals out of its obligations to fix it with the same zeal.
MAxNg
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Re: HEMS/SAR Duty time!
MaxNg,
Thanks for your reply, I got your point! But I still believe that when something is not right (not safe) you have to do something about it...!!
I'm mean this legislation probably works fine for an airliner, but necessary not fit a Helicopter HEMS operation in an remote area where the missions are few but demanding!
At the end of the day we are all looking for a safe operation, that should be everyones primary goal. But said that, there is no balance or common sence when duty time legislation limits your flight time to about 5 hours a month. No pilot should suffer from fatigue flying 5 hours a month, I mean you bearly get that damn thing started properly when flying that little
!!
Everybody probarly agree that the Flight time is creating Fatique not Stand-by time. The goal with the legislation must have been to enhance safety by preventing fatique, but the result of legislation is the opposite!!!! Pilots getting rusty when not flying enough and then you put them into demanding missions...Does this make sense?
Is there anybody out there who have any experience about how Duty time/Flight time legislation is manage in other HEMS-bases throu Europe??
Thanks for your reply, I got your point! But I still believe that when something is not right (not safe) you have to do something about it...!!
I'm mean this legislation probably works fine for an airliner, but necessary not fit a Helicopter HEMS operation in an remote area where the missions are few but demanding!
At the end of the day we are all looking for a safe operation, that should be everyones primary goal. But said that, there is no balance or common sence when duty time legislation limits your flight time to about 5 hours a month. No pilot should suffer from fatigue flying 5 hours a month, I mean you bearly get that damn thing started properly when flying that little
!!Everybody probarly agree that the Flight time is creating Fatique not Stand-by time. The goal with the legislation must have been to enhance safety by preventing fatique, but the result of legislation is the opposite!!!! Pilots getting rusty when not flying enough and then you put them into demanding missions...Does this make sense?
Is there anybody out there who have any experience about how Duty time/Flight time legislation is manage in other HEMS-bases throu Europe??
Re: HEMS/SAR Duty time!
Vertolot - its not about flight duty time is it? It's about the amount of hours you aren't flying, yes????
If this is true, then why don't you and your pilots simply go flying voluntarily and fly, say an hour a day each to stay fresh and current?
I dont understand why you are blaming the CAA?
GET AIRBORNE.
If this is true, then why don't you and your pilots simply go flying voluntarily and fly, say an hour a day each to stay fresh and current?
I dont understand why you are blaming the CAA?
GET AIRBORNE.
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Re: HEMS/SAR Duty time!
Yes, you are absolutely correct it isn't about the duty time it is about the hours we aren't flying.
Going to fly for an hour each day it's a good idea but who is going to pay for it? The CAA or the pilots
!!
Going to fly for an hour each day it's a good idea but who is going to pay for it? The CAA or the pilots
!!
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Re: HEMS/SAR Duty time!
In the military we had a minimum of 15 hours per month to remain current and the were strict guidlines on the type of training that had to be achieved. I now fly Police and despite having done the job for several years would not feel comfortable if I was regularly flying much less than five to ten hours per month.
How much would an hours training cost compared to the cost of an accident? You are already paying for the aircraft and crews which are sitting on the ground.
How much would an hours training cost compared to the cost of an accident? You are already paying for the aircraft and crews which are sitting on the ground.
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Re: HEMS/SAR Duty time!
Thomas Coupling
This is the first time I have heard of manipulating a roster so the pilots can fly MORE.
Most organisations have a system whereby to protect their crews from fatigue - not to fly more.
Be careful where you tread with ths one. If you guys are flying EMS/SAR at the moment (which I assume you are), remember that the flying rates are extremely sporadic. Even with a service only flying 400 hours a year.
This is the first time I have heard of manipulating a roster so the pilots can fly MORE.
Most organisations have a system whereby to protect their crews from fatigue - not to fly more.
Be careful where you tread with ths one. If you guys are flying EMS/SAR at the moment (which I assume you are), remember that the flying rates are extremely sporadic. Even with a service only flying 400 hours a year.
Re: HEMS/SAR Duty time!
Oogle: Don't fully understand your reply, sorry?
IF Vertolot is complaining he isn't flying enough - then they should simply voluntarily go flying...no shift change, no FDP alterations. Don't understand your comment sorry.
Secondly - are you referring to our Units flying hours as being 400/yr? We fly a 1000 hrs a year and fly on average 3hrs/day every day.
Can you clarify plz?
Vertolot: Your company is up and running, surely they don't fly less simply to keep the costs down? So flying more, but within their annual busget, shouldn't be a problem, no?
IF your unit crashes because your pilot is not current - I think you'll find it'll cost a whole lot more than a few hrs/day currency trng???????
IF Vertolot is complaining he isn't flying enough - then they should simply voluntarily go flying...no shift change, no FDP alterations. Don't understand your comment sorry.
Secondly - are you referring to our Units flying hours as being 400/yr? We fly a 1000 hrs a year and fly on average 3hrs/day every day.
Can you clarify plz?
Vertolot: Your company is up and running, surely they don't fly less simply to keep the costs down? So flying more, but within their annual busget, shouldn't be a problem, no?
IF your unit crashes because your pilot is not current - I think you'll find it'll cost a whole lot more than a few hrs/day currency trng???????
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Re: HEMS/SAR Duty time!
Vertolot,
It sounds like your pilots are getting by by relying on experience. If they aren't getting (my personal opinion) 2-3 hrs doing their core/difficult business and roughly 10 hours a month 15 would be better, hands on then they are relying on experience. Skills fade, over time, the skill base of the whole outfit will be evaporated/null and void after a year or two.
I guess you smell danger. I hope your pilots ARE actually experienced. How about a liaison visit between your CAA chaps and your outfit? Could do wonders to bend the rules in your favour as long as you give ground too??
It sounds like your pilots are getting by by relying on experience. If they aren't getting (my personal opinion) 2-3 hrs doing their core/difficult business and roughly 10 hours a month 15 would be better, hands on then they are relying on experience. Skills fade, over time, the skill base of the whole outfit will be evaporated/null and void after a year or two.
I guess you smell danger. I hope your pilots ARE actually experienced. How about a liaison visit between your CAA chaps and your outfit? Could do wonders to bend the rules in your favour as long as you give ground too??
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Re: HEMS/SAR Duty time!
(Thomas Coupling) Yes, you are absolutely correct it isn't about the duty time it is about the hours we aren't flying.
Thomas C, 1000 hours a year sounds great but we are not talking about your operation. I will hazard a guess that you fly a police machine. We are talking about duty times for a low flying hour operation working 24/7.
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Re: HEMS/SAR Duty time!
This is exactly our problem! We are a base flying 350-400 hrs/year. I agree 100% that 10-15 hrs is a absolute minimum a pilot should fly per month to stay current.
To get more training flights/hours is a excellent idea to solve the problem but you need to find a payer for those extra hours. The situation we have know is that the national legislation changed in the midle of a contract. I dont know exactly what it would take to get some more training hours into the contract?
But there are however another way you can solve the problem and thats if CAA should show some fexibility with the duty time limitations (duty time is limiting the the work we are able to work per month, not the flight time).
We have now 5 crews to run the HEMS base ie. 10 pilots. Working 4 day shift two times a month for each crew. If lets say the Authorities should give us some flexibility with duty time we could work 7 days on and 14 days of and could run the base with 3 crews (3+1). This should give each crew approximately 25% more flight time per month (and of course annually). Should be an improvement for maintaining safety at no extra cost.
Also a detail in this matter is that a pilot working full 8 days a month at the base are not allowed by the authorities to do Flight Instruction for some other company on his days off.
To get more training flights/hours is a excellent idea to solve the problem but you need to find a payer for those extra hours. The situation we have know is that the national legislation changed in the midle of a contract. I dont know exactly what it would take to get some more training hours into the contract?
But there are however another way you can solve the problem and thats if CAA should show some fexibility with the duty time limitations (duty time is limiting the the work we are able to work per month, not the flight time).
We have now 5 crews to run the HEMS base ie. 10 pilots. Working 4 day shift two times a month for each crew. If lets say the Authorities should give us some flexibility with duty time we could work 7 days on and 14 days of and could run the base with 3 crews (3+1). This should give each crew approximately 25% more flight time per month (and of course annually). Should be an improvement for maintaining safety at no extra cost.
Also a detail in this matter is that a pilot working full 8 days a month at the base are not allowed by the authorities to do Flight Instruction for some other company on his days off.
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Re: HEMS/SAR Duty time!
Vertolot
Therein lies your dilemma - you have too many crews for the amount of flying you do. Your training requirements would therefore be huge.
Therein lies your dilemma - you have too many crews for the amount of flying you do. Your training requirements would therefore be huge.
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Re: HEMS/SAR Duty time!
Oogle,
Yes we have to many crews regarding to hours flown. This is however regulated by the National CAA when they are legislating the Duty/Flight time " in the name of Safety"
. We are currently operating with the minimum of crew to fulllfill the Duty time legislation.
Yes we have to many crews regarding to hours flown. This is however regulated by the National CAA when they are legislating the Duty/Flight time " in the name of Safety"
. We are currently operating with the minimum of crew to fulllfill the Duty time legislation.
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Hems SAR Duty time
Vertolot If you duty time is 192h per month it is allready much more than normal emloyee can have (160 depending on country)
If you dont get enough flying change a job take something where you fly more like instructor (if you are one) normally in SAR you do not fly that much.
If you are there to build hour that not a place to be you should have experience before take a SAR job.
For me it also look like your base do not need a helicopter if there is not enough missions to support that.
I thing CAA rule is correct
Also you must be JAR OPS3 operator, so you have a lot of training from OPS and you can allways do more.
As Max Ng said ¨Stop blaming the regulators for enforcing sensible legislation, legislation that has been hard won and needed ......
If you dont get enough flying change a job take something where you fly more like instructor (if you are one) normally in SAR you do not fly that much.
If you are there to build hour that not a place to be you should have experience before take a SAR job.
For me it also look like your base do not need a helicopter if there is not enough missions to support that.
I thing CAA rule is correct
Also you must be JAR OPS3 operator, so you have a lot of training from OPS and you can allways do more.
As Max Ng said ¨Stop blaming the regulators for enforcing sensible legislation, legislation that has been hard won and needed ......
