Flight-Idle

Hi guys,

Just wondering if anyone has operated an AS350(B3) with both a which and floats at all, and what floats where used?
I have done some research looking for sectioned floats or similar to say the AW119 set up, however DART don't list any info on whether their floats are compatible or not, or whether it is possible.

I have seen a few images of aircraft in this configuration using standard floats (all US aircraft, Texas Game Warden B3e etc.) but no detailed info.

Thanks in advance.

evil7

You do single engine hoisting??

tqmatch

Of the aircraft used on the DHFS contract at RAF Shawbury, IIRC we did not operate with both floats & winch fitted. Although those aircraft are BB and not B3, I would assume the physical hardware is the same.

On the left hand skid tube, we had a hard plastic block fitted to prevent damage to the METAL tube, so my assumption would be that the cable would do exactly the same to a float bag. The floats fitted are single piece Aerazure units.

SuperF

Not everyone is that afraid of the engine failing that much. More chance of the pilot faffing it.

Please before the nanny state experts chime in, I didn't say do not be ready for an engine failure, just statistically the pilot has more chance of f,ing up than a well maintained engine does of stopping...

Flight-Idle

Thanks guys.

Not really keen on getting into the pros and cons of single engine winch operations, has and is being done all over the globe with great success in its intended roles. Not all operations can afford nor require anything more.

SuperF: Agreed mate. With current engine technology and very low true failure rates that aren't maintenance related, there is bigger things to worry about, i.e. a tail rotor failure, where any number of engines won't save you, but floats might.

tqmatch: This is the query, i was trying to find where there is actually a float system around that had two sectioned bags fore and aft of where the cable would pass similar to how the A119 floats run. Have seen a few US based aircraft running both, yet no indication of any protection to the float bag should it be deployed.

tqmatch

I have scoured the web this morning, and can't find any phot's of winch & floats fitted to the same 350 of any derivative - what I do know for sure is that the skid protectors I've seen on 350 winch cabs are always marked and scored, and as all 350 float systems fit to the outboard of the skids, the bags are going to be pretty much knackered after a few winch lifts.

In my time around 350's (which admittedly is limited to the UK), I have yet to see anything but the one piece version, and I cannot visualise how a multi-piece set-up would fit, there is just no way of fitting it?

On the subject of SE winching, if the H&S mad UK military do it, then I for one think it's more than acceptable - then again the UK MIL also perform SE IFR flights, they must be barmy, they must have a massive death wish..............or is EASA stuck in the dark ages? Thread drift, sorry!

HeliHenri

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Nice photo from Stéphane Gimard :



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tqmatch

Well look at that, learning something new everyday!

Spunk

Dart is offering an emergency float system (3 pieces per side) for the A-Star family:
AS350 Floats

southerncanuck

OP, yes the Apical system can be used with a winch, just have to be careful to keep the wire off the middle float bag.
send a PM, have images if you want them.
Cal

Shackman

Tqmatch - In fact the other way round - we did not operate over the water when winching WITHOUT the floats. This is what happens when the button (manual activation only but VERY sensitive) is touched, but you will note the winch is also in the winching position. It would be out for winching but retracted (almost) flush against the fuselage when not in use, as shown in HeliHenri's photo.



Student strikes again

There only four or five ac fitted with the winching kit (750-755 IIRC) which were also the only ones we could fit with the floatation gear, although the winches and/or floats were only fitted when the winching detachment was coming up. Apart from some wiring mods and a special compwash fitting I don't think there were any other differences from the stock BB.

tqmatch

Thanks Shackman, clearly when is say IIRC, it is nowhere near C! My defence is that I left the 350 line for the 412 line in 2006, the exited FBH altogether in 2007, never looking back!

That pic is brilliant, brings backs memories of early one morning, me signing all the PDC's off for the day, when one of the mech's walks in white faced from the shock he gave himself hitting the float button and hearing a rather loud bang! Followed by a rather tricky situation to get out of the cab and back to the line!!

Flight-Idle

Perfect! Thank you, this is what i was looking for a close up of the guide rail on the flight step. The Texas Game Warden machine appears to have something similar but there was no images obtainable from the LHS of the machine. This is what i expected, not sure how it would affect the float deployment but would keep it off the float bag.

HeliHenri

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Here is a link to a closer photo and higher resolution of the LHS to get all the details : F-ZBFC - Aerospatiale AS 350 B2 Ecureuil
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S70ALM

The AS-350 RFM has a section on 'incompatable equipment configurations' in the supplements. Often overlooked when adding STC goodies. Flyer beware.

oldpinger

The Royal Australian Navy have been doing it for years! since 91 in fact when they embarked a Squirrel for Gulf War 1 on a warship. Doesn't really count in this context, but interesting flying. Used to do live transfers as well. If this link to the navy.gov.au photo library works.....
http://images.navy.gov.au/fotoweb/ar...9_091.jpg.info

Just remembered- the Squirrels in Australia were originally bought for SAR duties with the RAAF before they divested themselves of Rotary. Wouldn't have liked to be a heavy Mirage pilot being winched out of the drink off Darwin in the summer!!!

Mark Six

Actually the RAN had the Squirrels embarked on FFG's from 1985 onwards, and always with winch and floats (and autopilots) fitted. The RAAF had 6 others for SAR, and the rest (12?)were used to replace the UH-1B as the basic military trainer.

TorqueOfTheDevil

Only occasionally, for one (overland) sortie, for one niche group of people. And that's not live winching - presumably last Brit Mil SE live winching would have been when the Whirlwind went out of service (assuming you don't count the odd Sea King which had an engine failure during winching!).

Please note I am not having a dig at those do SE winching - just clearing up an inaccurate statement.

John Eacott

NSW NPWS AS350B3s are all winch equipped and used for winching on a regular basis, for the naysayers out there who decry S/E winching.

But to my knowledge they don't have floats available nor fitted.

Shackman

The main reason the DHFS Squirrels did not live winch was because the release to service did not permit it: however, that could also be because Boscombe Down (who did the clearance) were not asked/tasked/funded to do so. All we did was to introduce prospective RN pilots to the problems of hovering over the water whilst trying to respond to the patter (con) from a crewman to recover a buoy from the water.

Having said that, the breaking strain of the winch cable was quite low (I can't remember the exact figure now), certainly less than the Whirlwind, and I would have been somewhat concerned to have people on the end of it. I suspect the RAN and others have a better cable fitted, although somewhere there is a video of a South/Central American Squirrel lifiting 2 survivors and the cable breaking.