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Robinson R44

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Robinson R44

Old 25th Aug 2003, 06:51
  #221 (permalink)  
 
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Anybody know what equipment Frank's turnkey law enforcement R44 carries?
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Old 25th Aug 2003, 08:18
  #222 (permalink)  
 
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Standto: If the annual flying budget is worked properly there would not be the need for overbudget situations. On occasions where the operations dept (aka air support) is extended to provide cover for a national or in depth incident, then either another department pays for the privilige or the C.C coughs up and bites the bullet! That is the case in this force, and (in discussion) with other forces.

You do your service a great injustice if you genuinly believe they have done little or no research on a/c types in the past. Huge amounts of time and energy have been expended nation wide by government offices (H.O. / PITO / PSDB) let alone by individual forces regarding the equipping of an air support unit. Do you think one of them decided one day to buy a twin, and then e-mailed everyone else to do the same.
You guys (the police) are known for re-inventing the wheel! Everytime one force does one thing, their neighbour ignores everything they've come up with and does thier own research. Funny then how 43 out of the 52 forces have light twin helos, eh??

You may have worked with or under an ASU but the bottom line is: you have never been a police observer , so you cannot fully understand how they function, or you certainly wouldn't be mentioning gyro's for police work

UK police air support is alive and kicking in its present form thanks to a very rapid (by US standards) transition through a 'live and learn' culture by switched on successive UEO's. Don't begrudge them all their efforts, please.
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Old 25th Aug 2003, 12:03
  #223 (permalink)  
 
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in the usa you have states made up of counties made up of cities.

some city police have their own machines, usually light, then each county has a sheriff's department and they have some too, usually light and medium, then there are the state coppers, i'm sure they would have one or two of each.

then there are the federal marshalls and the fbi and the national guard. the mind boggles.

then there is the private medevac companies, hundreds of them. there are more helicopters over there than you can poke a stick at.

helicopters fill the air and each one has its own role to play.
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Old 25th Aug 2003, 17:15
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Thomas Coupling:

A number of us who fully support your views are watching this thread. As you are advocating in an exemplary fashion we feel no need to launch into print.

Mars
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Old 25th Aug 2003, 17:15
  #225 (permalink)  
 
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"Anybody know what equipment Frank's turnkey law enforcement R44 carries?"

It's a 3-position machine with the space under the left front and right rear seats reserved for electronics. It can be specced with a FLIR-type mount for video and/or infra red, a searchlight with cockpit controls, police and air radios, microwave downlink, a loud hailer and other toys. The observer works front left, so the stick is modified to lose the t-bar and a grip is put on the centre stick. TOGW is 2500 lbs - the weight of machine plus fuel comes in at about 1700.
When I say "FLIR-type", I should explain that they used FLIR at first, but found that gyros were going every 12 months - so they've made their own mount which has now down more than 12 months without failure.
Not yet certified for UK - but forthcoming certification of the 44 ENG should assist. Believe it is flying in some parts of Europe.
More at www.robinsonheli.com./R44Police.htm.
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Old 25th Aug 2003, 17:47
  #226 (permalink)  
 
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blimey TC, Hope you aren't as abrasive to work with in the cockpit!

Of course things were looked at in great detail when the original ASU's were set up. Each county had its own research to do with regards to their geography and demography, but I would say that air support is one of the few areas in policing where the wheel hasn't been reinvented 43 times - you only have to look at the narrow choice of aircraft types that exist - not much beyond the 135 and 902, is there, save for a few still clattering round in 355's and of course Dyfed. The situation wasn't a million miles from the " hey, lets all buy twins" scenario you describe. Singles have been tried at points in time ( Lancs had a 47 for a while, Strathclyde a 206, amongst others) but they were found wanting and so things evolved into highly capable, superbly equipped, twin engined machines.

What the Police hasn't historically been good at (and I concede it isn't the only thing!) is moving dynamically with the times. We now have a "model" for police aviation, bolstered by the PAOM and because of that you will see very little innovation and willingness to revisit things to see if, at this moment or that moment in time, our needs have changed. This has been particularly the case in the police use of firearms, where only very gradual evolution was taking place until a rewrite of the guidance manual and study of less lethal options (which had been around for decades) has led to a major rething in the ways operations are conducted.

I haven't - at any time or elsewhere - decried the efforts of ASU's in this thread and you were a little offside in suggesting that I had.

My point is - can you imagine where military aviation would be now if the willingness to revisit and expand concepts had not been prevalant. The likes of the AH64 and Mil 24 would never have been invented. In fixed wing terms, who would ever have thought that we would be taking out cars in deserts with missiles dropped from Predators? The latter example probably better demonstrates the low cost option.

Digital mapping is now coming to the forefront. The IOM police has access to aerial hi res pictures of the whole island, and I understand that a number of UK forces also utilise this. Another low cost option, negating the need for a photographic sortie. However, such a sortie could quite comfortably be carried out by a light single, or - to push my point - even a microlight. This would actually be quite a bit more covert, as there isn't a great deal of other people who hover around in twin engine helo's, where there is a lot who burn around the skies in robbos and gossamer winged lawnmowers.

Indeed, have a look at what Steadicopter is doing

http://www.steadicopter.com/

The game is up TC. Don't forget the job is run by beancounters and a spotty, playstation generation probationer can now replace a multimillion pound ASU with a laptop and a toy helo. The new turbine ones even make the right noise! That puts an extra ten bobbies back on foot patrol, the hangar can be sold for low cost housing cos the 'ASU' is now in the back of a transit van, and the pilots can be released back into the staff- strapped aviation market! Someone could get promoted on the back of this idea.

Before you go off on one again Thos, please read all of this with tongue firmly in cheek

Bottom line - ASU's do a great job, but we must constantly look at what is going on. If I was a ground commander at a riot and had the option of launching an expendable model helo at tuppence an hour, or an EC 135 at a cost per hour far in excess, I know which I would choose. The final aviation solution for the policing of the British Isles has not yet been arrived at.
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Old 25th Aug 2003, 18:02
  #227 (permalink)  

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Altough I am but a mere civilian in this thread, the area where I live contains the one of the largest areas in the Uk covered by the local Contstabulary, they have as most of us know(who live here) a severe lack of feet on the ground or even spare vehicles just to patrol the area, to give you some idea of scale the distance between the two farthest points is something like 45miles, to actually drive this route can take around about 1 hour plus, ok put your blues and twos on and this may come down to about 50 mins, but this point to point can be covered even in the humble twitchy R22 in something like12 minutes, I once in my eager early flying life wrote to our Chief Constable( a lady) to expound this theory, I think my letter must have got lost in the post.
But to me, it would seem a resonably good idea to have something light cheap and easy to use, and leave the bigger Limo's to do the really combative work!!
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Old 25th Aug 2003, 18:09
  #228 (permalink)  
 
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Not that you would ever get me in a Robbo, that police spec Raven looks really good. How many of those could you have for the cost of a 902? Marvellous

And no, I have'nt forgotten about the twins over cities argument. However, haw many single engine law enforcement helos have crashed in US cities in the last 10 yrs.

The 1990 Strathclyde incident had an element of engine failure, but wasn't there other issues directly leading to that?

Careful VFR, you are talking sense. We don't do common sense in the Plods!
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Old 25th Aug 2003, 22:24
  #229 (permalink)  
 
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UK police air support is alive and kicking in its present form thanks to a very rapid (by US standards) transition through a 'live and learn' culture by switched on successive UEO's. Don't begrudge them all their efforts, please.


TC I can quote you many instances [some on paper]where a range of UEOs have been berated by other officers in other police units for 'choosing the wrong type of aircraft' - and I have been berated for thinking aloud too.... So I would guess that anyone might be allowed an opinion on Rotorheads!

I know that this is a UK Air Support thread, but plenty seem to whizz off with occasional mentions of the outside world when it suits them. Unless the IoM have a need to fly over the sea and particularly low, with their relatively small towns something single might suit them. I doubt the R44 because the trade off for the sensor would be too great, but a beefy single with good eyes would overcome the potential inability to fit PAOM easment criteria.

A fair number of US police singles have crashed into built up areas in recent years. Fatal for the crews but the effect on the ground has been less obvious because of the large areas of wide roadway and medians that US territory offers. They have really been lucky not to collect 'collateral voter' damage.

Most recent I can recall was the loss of the Californian crash in which the first operational example of the new searchlight was lost ... San Jose lost their MD520N .... LAPD have lost at least one off their rooftop... Baltimore of course sent a S300 whanging across the road.... that got them closed down until they recently modernised. In many ways it was the Strathclyde Bell 206 losing its engine [snow injestion] in January 1990 that led to the current PAOM three years later ..... straws and camels .....
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Old 25th Aug 2003, 23:19
  #230 (permalink)  
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Not exactly on topic but ... whilst researching some non aviation related information I came across this.

[SERGEANT HARRY LAWRIE BEM
Central Scotland Police

Harry Lawrie was killed on 1 February 1987 while assisting in a search and rescue operation on Ben More, when the helicopter he was aboard was hit by a sudden squall while trying to manoeuvre onto a ledge, and crashed into the mountainside.
It's not an accident I recall and was wondering if anyone can remember any more about it.

TIA.
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Old 26th Aug 2003, 00:19
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wonder if he was in a mil m/c, and part of a mountain rescue team?

PA NEWS..

If we are giong rotary in the dear ol' IOM, then I'm going to be greedy. Here goes:

A nice new N3 365, primarily equipped for medevac, so we don't have to charter for IOM to UK hospital transfers. Can also configure for normal Pax operations for less serious transfers.

Winch equipped for SAR ops, to support our six RNLI stations and relieve pressure on Valley and Irish ASR operations.

Police role capable in order to service the police requirement, but in addition able to carry out fisheries protection work, and Customs and Excise coastal patrols.

Painted bright red with a big 3 legs emblem on the fenestron

Pride of the British Isles.

Oh yes, and an autogyro for messing about in on slack days
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Old 26th Aug 2003, 00:43
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Electronics under the seats in the R44 - what sort of electronics? Does the R44 have the same seat design as the R22 i.e. crumpling on impact to absorb energy? I was always told not to put anything hard under the seat, as it would end up in a very unfortunate place in the event of a hard landing.
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Old 26th Aug 2003, 02:14
  #233 (permalink)  
 
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" I was always told not to put anything hard under the seat"

Never seen a 44 with floats then ? Nice big gas bottle under front left seat. It takes years for surgeons to remove these from.......no I'll stop there.
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Old 26th Aug 2003, 03:38
  #234 (permalink)  
 
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At the risk of boring you all this is the full story of Sergeant Lawrie... twenty years ago .... and yes it was a military accident.

...... in Scotland, police aviation was still struggling to gain headway against financial restraint..... there was .... extensive co-operation between the military and the police, especially in the field of mountain rescue.

The regular point of contact was between the crews of the helicopters assigned to Air/Sea Rescue and the volunteers attached to the civil mountain rescue teams [MRT]. The military maintained its own air and ground rescue teams to serve what was originally intended to be a military personnel rescue formation. It was the fortune of hundreds of civilian walkers, climbers and civilian sailors that their rescue was excellent training for the prime military role of rescuing downed pilots.

One of the numerous civil rescue teams operating the often dangerous ground task on a voluntary basis was the Killin MRT. Financed by local subscription, donation and local government subsidies, the unit was administered, trained and equipped by the Central Scotland Police. Membership comprised a mixture of local people and police, each of whom underwent training to augment an interest in mountaineering. Part of the training included helicopter familiarisation at RAF Leuchars.

Early in 1987 the leader of the Killin MRT was Sergeant Henry J G Lawrie. This 47 year old officer had 26 years service in the police, of which almost half of which had been as a sergeant in the Killin and Callander areas and closely connected to the MRT. He was awarded the British Empire Medal [BEM] in the Queen’s New Years Honours list in 1987.

At 1547hrs on Sunday February 1, 1987 a “999” emergency call was received at the police control room in Stirling. The caller, Werner Kittel, reported that his walking companion, a 27 year old Edinburgh film maker Sarah Noble, had been seriously injured on the north side of Ben More, Crianlarich, over an hour earlier. It was cold and snow lay on the ground.

A message was sent to Sergeant Rose, an officer then engaged with enquiries into an earlier fatal accident, who telephoned the various members of the MRT and arranged for them to meet him at Benmore Farm near the scene. Almost an hour later the 34 years old language instructor Kittel arrived at the farm in an understandably distressed state. Although he thought that the injured climber was still alive when he left her, he believed that she was quite likely to die of her injuries soon if not rescued. Shortly afterwards Sergeant Lawrie requested helicopter assistance, as members of the MRT met up with another climber who, whilst climbing down Ben More, had found a woman’s body and was on his way to alert the emergency services. She was undoubtedly dead but, with the pressure off, the team had a more precise location for her.

Appraised of the new situation, the Rescue Co-ordination Centre, Pitreavie, Fife, allowed the helicopter to continue to Benmore Farm as it had already left its base and was due to arrive at 1735hrs. The helicopter despatched was an 22 Squadron RAF, “B” Flight detachment, Westland Wessex HC2, XT674, piloted by Flight Lieutenant Hugh Pierce with Flying Officer Christopher Palgrave as his navigator and Michael Anderson as Winchman. Wing Commander Rodgers, commanding officer of 22 Squadron, was an additional passenger.

It was dark by the time the helicopter arrived at the farm. The aircrew decided to take members of the Killin MRT to assist them both in locating the body and to enable them to be dropped in the vicinity of the location. As they were both suitably dressed for the flight, Sergeant Lawrie took Constable Joseph Ramsey with him in the Wessex. Leaving Wing Commander Rodgers at the farm, they took off at 1745hrs and commenced an air search of the north face of the hillside with the aid of powerful searchlights attached to the undercarriage. The remaining members of the ground team set off to start their own search of the lower slopes.

After checking their bearing with the observers remaining at the farm after ten minutes it was found that the Wessex, visible by virtue of its searchlights, was searching the wrong area. The helicopter moved westwards only to find that the wind and down-draught at the new location were unfavourable. On safety grounds it was decided to abandon the air search and drop off the Killin MRT pair wherever they chose. Sergeant Lawrie asked to be dropped off near to the ground team.

In seeking a suitable landing the pilot, Hugh Pierce, descended from a high hover with the fuselage of the Wessex parallel to the hillside with the starboard door, locked in the open position, facing onto Ben More. Flying virtually blind, he was acting primarily on the commentary given by the winchman, Michael Anderson.

One of the greatest dangers in such manoeuvres in close proximity to steeply sloping ground in the dark was that of the main rotor blades striking the ground. At about 1800hrs this is exactly what happened to the Wessex. The first the occupants inside the Wessex knew of the impact was the loud bang, immediately followed by being physically flung off their feet by an unseen force. For the two policemen it was worse. Most of the crew were still restrained, but the pair had unstrapped themselves from their seats in preparation for their deplaning. Ramsey was flung to the rear of the Wessex as the stricken aircraft bounced and slid down the slope on its starboard side, tail first. Fire broke out. The members of the approaching Killin MRT found themselves in the path of the big helicopter and were obliged to scatter in all directions as it careered towards them in a ball of flame.

Ramsey fell free of the fuselage via a hole created by the tail breaking away, only to find himself following the wreck down the slope, overtaking, then colliding with it and finally passing it when it stopped. He was found to have broken his right femur and some ribs. Pierce was still strapped into his pilots seat and able to operate the built in fire damping system as well as tackle the blaze with a hand extinguisher on his own. Chris Palgrave, the navigator, was sitting on the chill grass but framed by the open starboard doorway and enclosed by the fuselage. He made his way towards the gaping hole at the rear of the aircraft and found Anderson who lay in a heap near the rear of the damaged cabin with a serious knee injury. As one member of the Killin team fought the fire others extricated Anderson through the hole.

Sergeant Lawrie could not be found in close proximity to the burning Wessex, however a trail of blood was found in the snow as the injured were removed from the immediate vicinity of the blaze. The sergeant was found further down the hill, lying on his back and displaying severe injuries. He was obviously dead.

A “Mayday” had been immediately called up by the MRT on site, a call acted upon by the watchers at the farm. Once alerted to the new situation, and RAF MRT, in the area by chance, set off towards the glow they could see on the horizon. These teams were the first outside help to arrive and move the injured to a suitable helicopter landing location. The civilian aid mission had turned upon itself and was now a military personnel rescue.

A Sea King helicopter was despatched from RAF Lossiemouth, almost 140 miles away . It arrived at 2010hrs and took the injured to the Royal Infirmary, Stirling, 30 miles away. The body of Sergeant Lawrie was taken to the mortuary at the same hospital, his wife, Jane, had been among the horrified watchers at the farm and knew that he was inside the Wessex. Lawrie’s death occurred before the formal presentation of the BEM could be made. The object of the exercise, the search for Sarah Noble, was called off for the night, to be finally recovered at 1030hrs the next day. It was 200 yards above and 400 yards east of the crash site. PS Lawrie’s eldest son, Gary, served on as a PC with the Central Scotland Police and was later a rescue co-ordinator with the police and civilian Lomond MRT.

Sorry about the length, its from an unpublished manuscript.
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Old 26th Aug 2003, 04:04
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Appreciate that PANews. Cheers
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Old 26th Aug 2003, 06:20
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Police R44

Guess I have to dip my oar in here, give the view from the other side.

The police R44 I presently fly is very well suited for its task - OBSERVATION. Patrol, surveillance, call response. It is not meant to do anything else, and we don't. But as I'm sure TC will confirm, 90% or so of police aviation work falls in the above category. So we have a helicopter with the capability to do 90% of the tasks, at 20% of the price, of a modern UK police helo. Good deal, methinks.

Now for the historical argument: in the US, where police aviation got started rather earlier than in Europe, the only helicopters available in the beginning were single-engine - mostly Bell 47s. They served very well for years, and the net result was not an aluminum rain on US cities - not even at night. As police forces identified the need for additional capabilities, they traded up to larger, more capable airframes best suited to their identified needs, a process that is continuously ongoing.

Now, in the UK, before police aviation got started properly, the CAA in its wisdom had decreed that single-engine helicopters were Unsafe, multi-engine helicopters were Safe, so the only way a police department was going to fly a helicopter over a city, at night, was if it was multi-engined. Any police officer, heck, any astute reader of newspapers can tell you that most criminal activity takes place in cities, during the hours of darkness, so a police helicopter to be useful at all, will have to be able to operate over cities at night. Therefore, ASUs had to start with multis, mostly AS355Fs.

Now you have a very capable, not to mention expensive, 6-seat machine, and all you're going to do is have two people look out the window? Of course, intelligent minds at the ASUs began investigating and utilizing the untapped capabilities of these machines. It's a lot cheaper to buy a hoist and train the appropriate personnel than it is to buy a hoist-capable helicopter, buy a hoist and train the appropriate personnel. Six seats is enough to transport the Bomb Squad and their toys, so let's do that, etc. Before you know it the ASU has all sorts of duties that just cannot be performed by a smaller single, regardless of what the regulations say.

We don't do any of that. The local police department has been running without for decades, and will continue to run without. What we do is provide a quick-reaction capability equivalent to 5 or more squad cars, and it's had an appreciable effect on crime rates. Of course we get queries all the time; the last one was about the local SWAT team rapelling from the helicopter. The way we handled that was to ask some questions and get them to admit it was just a macho show-off stunt, and then point out the limitations of the machine. If and when the budget and needs of the department coincide to put me in an SPIFR twin, I'll be very happy to fly it; but at the moment, an R44 is all we can afford, and it's excellent value for money.

As to the rest of Europe: with the JAA you now have a bureaucracy made up of, what, 15 bureaucracies? Machiavelli must be groaning in his grave, "Why didn't I think of that?" Have any of you ever seen a bureaucracy willingly give up a regulation or admit "Well maybe we DID go a little bit overboard here?" For your eludication, do a search on this forum for both the words "Kenyon" and "CAA" and carefully read the result. The final JARs will be a combination of the most restrictive rules anywhere in Europe on any given operation. So forget about single-engine police helicopters.

As to equipment: we have a combined FLIR/video camera in a gyro-stabilized nose mount; an SX-5 searchlight, slavable to the camera; a PA/siren system; and police and marine radios. No microwave downlink 'cause we don't have a ground station.

Oh, and on the reliability side: I'll bet an R44's engine against a Twinstar's electrical system any day - especially in the rain.
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Old 26th Aug 2003, 14:25
  #237 (permalink)  
 
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Buitzenorg

Now THAT'S what I call putting things in perspective!!!!!

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Old 26th Aug 2003, 17:20
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police ops in the UK

Buitenzorg

Sorry to correct you but JAR Ops does not cover police operations. In most of Europe they tend to be quasi military ( or State aircraft) and in UK they are regulated by the CAA. Incidentally there is nothing in the PAOM to stop a police force using a single, they themselves choose not to because (I guess) of the limited benefit they themselves perceive from them.

Police over here don't use winches or carry out SAR either.

Sorry
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Old 26th Aug 2003, 20:24
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A slight correction or comment on oh's correction,

He is right that JAR OPS does not apply BUT the powers that be (i.e. the CAA in the UK) generally apply the same standards across onto police operations with a short time lag.

So for example,

Police Ops over a congested area require a twin;
Police Ops at night require a twin (cos police observers are considered as pax, pax means "public transport" and pt means twins at night)

If you want to do UK police ops day only and over open non-hostile terrain, you could still use a single in the UK........... but there ain't much point because most police work involves people where they live.

I think that Buitenzorg's comments are a great summary of the difference between USA and the offshore bit of Europe, and why we got to where we are.
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Old 26th Aug 2003, 20:40
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police ops

Helinut,

I think we are both saying much the same thing. In the UK police ops are public transport and based on the ANO. The reason for this is that the then Home Secretary (remember Cecil P?) said that police were to follow the same rules as PT unless it was operationally essential that they didn't. Hence easements on low flying rules etc. JAR Ops is largely similar to ANO and I would guess that sooner or later the PAOM will fall into line by and large with those rules.
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