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S76 down in Baltic Sea (Now incl NTSB Safety Recommendation)

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S76 down in Baltic Sea (Now incl NTSB Safety Recommendation)

Old 12th Aug 2005, 09:06
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Just a question:
How are fitted the floats on a S76? I can't see them in these picture.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/898477/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/898362/L/

Thanks
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Old 12th Aug 2005, 09:29
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Just a question:
How are fitted the floats on a S76? I can't see them in these picture.
The S76 has four floats. One each side of the nose wheel (fitted internally) and one on the underside of each of the rear undercarriage doors. They are inflated via individual inflation bottles that cross inflate. ie each front bottle inflates half of each front float. Likewise for the rear.

I hope this answers the question adequately.

A sad day!
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Old 12th Aug 2005, 09:37
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Deepest Condolences to all those involved and to the friends and families .

Very harrowing for the poor rescue teams too

TnT
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Old 12th Aug 2005, 10:26
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Thanks slowlane.
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Old 12th Aug 2005, 10:44
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@Brilliant Stuff

After all the Pilot's are dead and they can not defend themsevles.
Sorry at the moment i couldn't read any speculations about the accident reason. And up to time nobody wants to blame the pilots!!!???

I you are pissed about the words to copterline tell us your opinion.

I think it's in the same way interesting to hear facts about the operators as to the a/c in case of any accident or incident.
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Old 12th Aug 2005, 11:04
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Someone ... (made some allegations against the company.) But looking over the thread it has vanished now.
Must mean the moderators were at it.
So all is well again.




I haven't deleted any posts but, since the allegation you mention has now been removed, it's better not to repeat what someone wrote and then removed.

Heliport
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Old 12th Aug 2005, 12:45
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tecpilot

If you're not raising the possibility of pilot error, why did you mention some incident last year which concerned inexperienced pilots?


Heliport
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Old 12th Aug 2005, 12:45
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What was earlier reported and now disappeared about sharp pencilling the logbook etc. seems to be true. The president and biggest shareholder of Copterline has been banned from flying by the FAA for 9 months. He took the case to court and lost the first round. At the moment the case is still open so he can keep on flying.

So far all the passengers and one pilot has been raised from the chopper while the other pilot is missing. The chopper is planned to be raised either later today or tomorrow.

I can neither see anyone blaming the pilots. According to eyewitness reports a technical malfunction seems to be more likely reason but we shall see what comes up in the investigation.
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Old 12th Aug 2005, 13:43
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Thank you Heliport.

I think enough has been said.
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Old 12th Aug 2005, 15:35
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If you're not raising the possibility of pilot error, why did you mention some incident last year which concerned inexperienced pilots?
I couldn't see any line between a company fact and "raising the possibility of pilot error"???

In the GOM discussions it seems to be normal to discuss the operators and their way to operate the ships and to organize the work. Why is it in this case a question?

Fact is a S-76 modern ship is down, killing collegues and passengers. Thats the only accident fact at the moment.

But a fact is also that copterline in the past had some trouble with the kind of their operations. And in fact with the kind of operation on this route across the baltic sea.

I think enough has been said.
Same to me.
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Old 12th Aug 2005, 22:52
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To the newbies on the block:
This is a rumour network, we thrive on it.
As long as no-one is disrespectful or litigous then fair game.

I remember the Scilly Isles S61, just short of finals, fly itself very smoothly and quietly into the flat calm sea on a beautiful day.
I think it was poor CRM and rad alt settings that caught them out.
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Old 13th Aug 2005, 02:36
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Moderater,

Please take charge of this increasingly unpleasant thread.
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Old 13th Aug 2005, 04:14
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Hello People!

Obviously, emotions are running quite high on this thread...

However, before everyone loses their minds, let's just put into perspective what's going on.

Whenever there is a tragic accident, there will be people wondering what happened. That's human nature, because it is a 'self-preservation' response. The intellectual challenge is natural. You'll not stop it.

Some asked, "Can't we just wait for the accident report?" That report could be months away. People aren't just going to forget about the accident until then.

The problem is, as details of the accident are sketchy at first, so the number of possible causes will be high. Still, I don't see anything wrong with going through scenarios based on what I know. That might just save me from a different accident.

Some scenarios will inevitably apportion blame to a crew who are sadly are unable to defend themselves. Is it so wrong to consider these though? Sometimes, even the best can make a mistake, and if they have, we should all learn from it.

However...

There is however a moral and ethical responsibility to that we owe to the lost crew, the families and friends and those involved.

This is a public forum and we don't know who may be reading at all. So for that reason alone, it is prudent to keep some views off this list and to yourself. Isn't this is a basic rule of society.

It always amazes me how people seem to lose their social skills, simply because they are on an anonymous internet forum. Why is that? A good test for whether something is appropriate for this board is this.

Imagine yourself in a very public place...would you stand up and shout it out loud? If not, then don't post it here!

Another problem (seen on this thread) is where people have tried to link unrelated issues to the accident.

If there is absolutley no connection between a company's past record and this accident, then why mention it? That is irresponsible to say the least.

So to sumarise what I'm saying...

1. Some need to accept that people are going to question and speculate, when they hear of an accident happens.

2. Others need to be more responsible when posting after an accident...maybe it's better off the list, simply for the benifit of those close to or involved.

cl12pv2s
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Old 13th Aug 2005, 11:25
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This thread is strange. Everything here is pure speculation so either you allow speculation or don't. You possibly can't allow speculation as long as it doesn't allude that the pilots or the operator was to blame!

It is about the same likelyhood that the pilots would defend themselves on a public forum like this no matter if they are dead or not. I assume that everyone here is anxious to find a possible cause of the accident. I am quite sure that the pilots and their loved ones want the truth to get out. As an example - it's possible, but not very likely and can't be ruled out at this stage that the maintenance department used the same BIC pen as some of the executives did last year. I say again, I don't think that's the case but why shouldn't we be allowed to discuss such things openly? Let's just be open-minded to all possible causes, likely or not. If the accident is due to irregularities of the operator, I am sure that the pilots involved would have wanted this to get out..

I think that it's time for everyone opting to read this thread to accept the fact that everything written here, before the accident report arrives, is pure speculation.
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Old 13th Aug 2005, 11:58
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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The chopper has been raised from the bottom of the sea. Blade parts will be raised later. Here are some pictures of it. As I understand it the door that is open was opened by divers. http://www.iltalehti.fi/2005/08/13/2...23100_uu.shtml

Both pilots were either not wearing their seatbelts or they survived the crash and then opened their seatbelts. Anyway their seatbelts were found open. All the passengers weared their seatbelts when they were found. One of the pilots is still missing.

Now it’s also reported that the Estonians have labelled the investigation as secret???

There is already a lot of information available about this accident. I am confident that the reason of this accident will be found shortly. What will take longer is to find what lead to the accident.

The chopper was equipped with a “black box”. Some reports say it’s CVR some say it’s FDR some say it’s both. Anyone know what’s the fact in this case?
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Old 13th Aug 2005, 13:34
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I think it´s unlikelikely that it has FDR (Flight data recorder) However it should be equipped with CVR (Cockpit voice recorder) and since it´s a C+ it has FADEC (Full authority digital engine control) engine control so it should be possible to extract engine data from the Mini HUMS (Health usage monitoring system).

Interesting to see that the wheels are down and floats deployed!

So highly unlikely that it was CFIT, more proof that this was NOT the pilots fault.
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Old 13th Aug 2005, 13:34
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I guess Martin1234, the difference is that we must keep to speculation, and avoid defamation or slander.

It is one thing to speculate as to what might have happened and another to say, "The crewchief/pilot/manager/passenger was/is a known jerk/felon/incompetant/murderer and that's why the accident happened." Those statements are not speculation, they are outright slander. It is possibly bad form, probably actionable, and certainly not defensible from someone who is now dead.

My thoughts are to those lost, and to those among the company, regulators and manufacturers who now are working hard to understand this one so as to prevent a next one.
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Old 13th Aug 2005, 14:36
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We are all eager to know and understand the cause of this accident so as to avoid a similar occurrence in the future. This is the reason why Flight Recorders are mandated and carried.

It is difficult to understand Aesir's comment on the presence of the FDR (as he comes from Iceland - a signatory to the Cyprus Protocol); JAR-OPS 3 requires both a CVR and FDR for a helicopter of this size and date of individual Certificate of Airworthiness - it is therefore likely that it would have been fitted with a combination recorder satisfying both functions.

Most accident investigations are extremely thorough and therefore take a considerable time to publish the results of their deliberations; not to discuss the accident, and even speculate on the causes - in crew-rooms and even on PPRuNe - would be unnatural.

The more we discuss the probable causes of accidents the sooner we begin to understand our own (and mechanical) frailties.

Jim
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Old 13th Aug 2005, 15:45
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Martin1234,

If the accident is due to irregularities of the operator, I am sure that the pilots involved would have wanted this to get out..
The problem is, by saying this, you are in effect accusing the company of manslaughter.

This is a very serious allegation indeed, and that is why the investigators will dedicate serious time in finding the truth.

I don't think we (at this time) have the right to make that sort of allegation based on the little evidence we have in an open forum.

Not only is it a little insensitive (I'm sure the company is grieving too as well as the family), but it is also pushing the boundries of defamation, libel and slander by implying the link. What if you are completely wrong and there is no link between the accident and the past history?

So we must be careful in what we write, both from a sensitivity point of view, and also a proffessional point of view.

cl12pv2s
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Old 13th Aug 2005, 15:57
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JimL

"It is difficult to understand Aesir's comment on the presence of the FDR (as he comes from Iceland - a signatory to the Cyprus Protocol); "

?? Uhh.. well its just because I fly helicopters of this size which do not have FDR!

But thanks for pointing out that helicopters of this size should have installed FDR if issued certificate of airworthiness after 1999. This particicular aircraft was a 2000 model so it's likely that it had a FDR installed.

Reference: JAR-OPS 3.715
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