Helicopter Pilot Seats....Crimes against Humanity!
Having rebuildt many pilot seats over the years i've found if the pilot is comforable the U/S rate of the a/c drops!
The best set up i've seen is throw away the factory foam after it shrinks and looses its sponge, replace with 2 pieces of foam 3/4 thickness highdensity foam 1/4 softer foam for comfort (all approved fire proof a/c material) then thick lambswool cover over the top, the back done the same with a pump up lumber support inserted under the soft foam . not perfect but kept the pilots happy for awhile. The 332 pilot seat is pretty good if the lumbersupport is rebuilt and strenthened and the leg support and lumbersupport is rigged properly and the lambswool is nice and thick, and the Blackhawk seat would be good if it had a pump up lumber support as the seat fan under the pilots bum helps alot. But none of them ar as comfortable as most cars i've been in!
The best set up i've seen is throw away the factory foam after it shrinks and looses its sponge, replace with 2 pieces of foam 3/4 thickness highdensity foam 1/4 softer foam for comfort (all approved fire proof a/c material) then thick lambswool cover over the top, the back done the same with a pump up lumber support inserted under the soft foam . not perfect but kept the pilots happy for awhile. The 332 pilot seat is pretty good if the lumbersupport is rebuilt and strenthened and the leg support and lumbersupport is rigged properly and the lambswool is nice and thick, and the Blackhawk seat would be good if it had a pump up lumber support as the seat fan under the pilots bum helps alot. But none of them ar as comfortable as most cars i've been in!
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I agree with blackhawk about comfort/serviceability; helicopters also suffer from vibration just like us, it breaks them in the end. So to improve the cushion is an okay move; however it still doesn't doesn't fix the basic geometry of the seat which in the case of the 76 is unfixable due to lack of space fore and aft.
If you use a lumbar support you'll introduce a curve into your lower spine at the point where it's bearing the load of the vertical bouncing forces; the spine is designed to absorb moderate vertical loads. It does less well when it's curved and you end up wearing the inner surfaces of the joint and reducing the clearance between L!,2, 3 and 4; in short it gets progressively more painful as you get older.
After we got modified Puma seats on the 61 with adjustable leg supports and armrests I stopped using a backrest. By using the armrests I rested my back from vertical bounce in the cruise and by sitting with my bum hard up against the seatback I ensured my back was as near vertical as possible. Backache was reduced to manageable thereafter. BUT you must take care of the back by exercising to keep it flexible; can you put your fingers flat on the floor without bending your knees? Try it, but remember in this industry to keep your back to the wall...
One other point; project engineers/pilots are very knowledgeable people to whom I defer on all technical matters. But only the pilot and the line engineer/mechanic know what it's like to live with an aircraft type for years and years and thousands and thousands of hours without relief or respite. That's what gives us a different perspective on NVH - noise, vibration and harshness. You can make the aircraft stronger to protect it but not the human body.
If you use a lumbar support you'll introduce a curve into your lower spine at the point where it's bearing the load of the vertical bouncing forces; the spine is designed to absorb moderate vertical loads. It does less well when it's curved and you end up wearing the inner surfaces of the joint and reducing the clearance between L!,2, 3 and 4; in short it gets progressively more painful as you get older.
After we got modified Puma seats on the 61 with adjustable leg supports and armrests I stopped using a backrest. By using the armrests I rested my back from vertical bounce in the cruise and by sitting with my bum hard up against the seatback I ensured my back was as near vertical as possible. Backache was reduced to manageable thereafter. BUT you must take care of the back by exercising to keep it flexible; can you put your fingers flat on the floor without bending your knees? Try it, but remember in this industry to keep your back to the wall...
One other point; project engineers/pilots are very knowledgeable people to whom I defer on all technical matters. But only the pilot and the line engineer/mechanic know what it's like to live with an aircraft type for years and years and thousands and thousands of hours without relief or respite. That's what gives us a different perspective on NVH - noise, vibration and harshness. You can make the aircraft stronger to protect it but not the human body.
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Having seen both sides for the fence I have to agree with the general consensus on the suitability of helicopter seats.
The worst seat I have yet experienced was the one on the Bell 47, but I guess lower tech than a shelf with a flat foam cushion one is hard to achieve. I think though that this was indicative of how designers regarded crew comfort. The constraints of weight are particularly difficult for designers to resolve, but there have been plenty of great suggestions on this thread which do not add excessive weight.
As some one said previously, the original 'Tiger' seat was particularly dreadful and I seem to recollect that it was akin to perching on the edge of a shelf. The later seat was a real improvement, but the ability for it to recline was a particular waste of time simply beacuse there was not enough space in the flightdeck to actually do this. The arm rests were probably the best point together with the longer leg support and the gel seat insert (as long as the gingerbeers hadn't substituted a block of foam when the gel sac leaked)
The stretched red nylon shopping bag on the Bell 212 should not have been allowed under any circumstances.
Now I am experiencing the difference with an Airbus 330/340 and while the improvement is huge, there are still difficulties in creating a truly comfortable seat, even now we are actively trying to develop a more comfortable cushion, though the scope for adjustment is so much more than that available to a helicopter designer and everything is made so much more solidly.
I would have to agree with Nick in only one minor point - it is difficult to create a seating arrangement which satisfies all pilots, however the notion that what we have is adequate is seriously optimistic.
The worst seat I have yet experienced was the one on the Bell 47, but I guess lower tech than a shelf with a flat foam cushion one is hard to achieve. I think though that this was indicative of how designers regarded crew comfort. The constraints of weight are particularly difficult for designers to resolve, but there have been plenty of great suggestions on this thread which do not add excessive weight.
As some one said previously, the original 'Tiger' seat was particularly dreadful and I seem to recollect that it was akin to perching on the edge of a shelf. The later seat was a real improvement, but the ability for it to recline was a particular waste of time simply beacuse there was not enough space in the flightdeck to actually do this. The arm rests were probably the best point together with the longer leg support and the gel seat insert (as long as the gingerbeers hadn't substituted a block of foam when the gel sac leaked)
The stretched red nylon shopping bag on the Bell 212 should not have been allowed under any circumstances.
Now I am experiencing the difference with an Airbus 330/340 and while the improvement is huge, there are still difficulties in creating a truly comfortable seat, even now we are actively trying to develop a more comfortable cushion, though the scope for adjustment is so much more than that available to a helicopter designer and everything is made so much more solidly.
I would have to agree with Nick in only one minor point - it is difficult to create a seating arrangement which satisfies all pilots, however the notion that what we have is adequate is seriously optimistic.
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Where's my camp chair...?
After sitting through a bunch of hours on the Jetti, I wished I was back in a R22. I resorted to smuggling pillows out of my hotel room, which a placed onder my thighs, just to take some pressure off my butt. The constant leaning forward didn't help much, but after removing the back cushion, was a bit better.
After reading this thread, I don't feel like I'm alone out there anymore.
After reading this thread, I don't feel like I'm alone out there anymore.
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The seats in the Gazelle, although far better than the 206, have a steel top to them which protrudes further out than the seat foam does and sticks right in to your spine between the shoulders.
I can only assume that before being compressed through years of use, the foam would've been alot thicker!
At least the Gazelle seats are adjustable fore and aft, which isn't bad for an old type, not many others do!
I can only assume that before being compressed through years of use, the foam would've been alot thicker!
At least the Gazelle seats are adjustable fore and aft, which isn't bad for an old type, not many others do!
Thread Starter
Hey Nick ol' Buddy.....
Care to respond to some of the criticisms provided here....now that you are out of the helicopter business and into luxury Biz-jets...maybe you can find some innovative engineers that can come up with quality retro-fits mods for all these helicopters out there.
It would appear to be a lucrative market.....not one single helicopter has been bragged upon for its seats....unless I really mis-read the posts.
Care to respond to some of the criticisms provided here....now that you are out of the helicopter business and into luxury Biz-jets...maybe you can find some innovative engineers that can come up with quality retro-fits mods for all these helicopters out there.
It would appear to be a lucrative market.....not one single helicopter has been bragged upon for its seats....unless I really mis-read the posts.
Thread Starter
I do not know who revived this Thread but a lot has happened since 2005 when my last post was made.
Nick Lappos has moved to new and more senior positions in the Aerospace/Aviation Industry. He continues to an advocate for innovations in helicopter design and related technology and infrastructure.
He remains the luckiest guy I know....and is living proof of the benefit that can accrue from attending the right Church on the right Sunday.
I am willing to bet Helicopter Seats are still pitiful and far less comfortable than any decent Automobile Seat to be found in the average passenger vehicle on the market.
Sadly, I blame Nick's failure to do better in that regard to be his major failure in Life but considering he cannot remember to tie his shoes he has gone far since his days as a Cobra Pilot in the US Army.
Nick Lappos has moved to new and more senior positions in the Aerospace/Aviation Industry. He continues to an advocate for innovations in helicopter design and related technology and infrastructure.
He remains the luckiest guy I know....and is living proof of the benefit that can accrue from attending the right Church on the right Sunday.
I am willing to bet Helicopter Seats are still pitiful and far less comfortable than any decent Automobile Seat to be found in the average passenger vehicle on the market.
Sadly, I blame Nick's failure to do better in that regard to be his major failure in Life but considering he cannot remember to tie his shoes he has gone far since his days as a Cobra Pilot in the US Army.
I will offer that the seat design, coupled with how the harness was attached to the seat/seat mount assembly, is why a colleague of mine died in a Seahawk in 1989. Dolfin summed it up best.
The SH-2F was OK, the SH-60B seat bloody uncomfortable. I walk with pain each day that I get out of bed, and I am not yet sixty. I can mitigate this with some of the exercises the nice physical therapists offer, but the root cause isn't something they can fix.
I find that there are good seats, and there are bad seats. Unfortunately, the good seats are terrible.
It doesn't matter how good you make a seat, if the pilot doesn't strap in correctly he is wasting his time.
I was brought up with ejection seats. With those it is IMPERATIVE that you push your backside right into the corner and tighten the lap straps. The same with helicopter seats; you see too many people sit in, drape the shoulder straps over them and then, as an afterthought, attach the seat straps.
My early operational life was attached to a Mk 3 Martin Baker seat which, if fired, would depart the end of an eight foot, three cartridge, tube at eighty feet/second with a 175 lbs. pilot attached. I weighed about 145 lbs. with kit so I was going out considerably faster so I welded myself to the seat. Even on extended refuelled flights of ten hours or more there was no discomfort at all.
I did the same when I transferred to helicopters; tighten the lapstraps and allow the shoulders to move with the inertial. Should you leave the lapstraps loose then inevitable movement of you backside will ease it forward and then you backbone becomes the wrong shape. That's when it gets sore and will cause long term damage.
Five years on stovies, forty three on helicopters; Not a twinge.
I was brought up with ejection seats. With those it is IMPERATIVE that you push your backside right into the corner and tighten the lap straps. The same with helicopter seats; you see too many people sit in, drape the shoulder straps over them and then, as an afterthought, attach the seat straps.
My early operational life was attached to a Mk 3 Martin Baker seat which, if fired, would depart the end of an eight foot, three cartridge, tube at eighty feet/second with a 175 lbs. pilot attached. I weighed about 145 lbs. with kit so I was going out considerably faster so I welded myself to the seat. Even on extended refuelled flights of ten hours or more there was no discomfort at all.
I did the same when I transferred to helicopters; tighten the lapstraps and allow the shoulders to move with the inertial. Should you leave the lapstraps loose then inevitable movement of you backside will ease it forward and then you backbone becomes the wrong shape. That's when it gets sore and will cause long term damage.
Five years on stovies, forty three on helicopters; Not a twinge.
Well Fareastdriver,
it´s not that easy....
Feel very comfy in a BK117 - but get backpain in a BK117D2...
Nice helicopter with lots off efforts done in making pilots life easier - but a drawback in seatdesign.
I´m fairly tall - and the seats seems designed for smaler pilots....
and they are fairly low in comparison to the older BK 117.
So whenever I´m on the Co-Pilot side, not actually flying, I have to remove my feet from the pedals.
Sit down on the floor and move your feet closer to you - what will happen?
You´ll bend your back!
Hope Airbus gets this sorted out soon!
it´s not that easy....
Feel very comfy in a BK117 - but get backpain in a BK117D2...
Nice helicopter with lots off efforts done in making pilots life easier - but a drawback in seatdesign.
I´m fairly tall - and the seats seems designed for smaler pilots....
and they are fairly low in comparison to the older BK 117.
So whenever I´m on the Co-Pilot side, not actually flying, I have to remove my feet from the pedals.
Sit down on the floor and move your feet closer to you - what will happen?
You´ll bend your back!
Hope Airbus gets this sorted out soon!
@Fareastdriver: I generally agree with "strap in properly" but that's only part of the issue. The rest is shape and ergonomics.
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I use a 450x450x100 ROHO seat with dual chambers which is a life saver. I just drop a bit of air out of whichever side I'm long lining out of and it makes the days a lot easier. It also takes a fair bit of the vibe out.
Avoid imitations
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The main part of my military career was on the Puma HC1, which at the time had a seat which could at best be described as an afterthought. The seat back was too short, so that the shoulder harness attachment point was below the height of your shoulders. Tightening the shoulder straps caused your spine to stoop. Also, the thin seat cushion had collapsed on most aircraft. So for those below a certain sitting height, the only way to see the landing point was to look under the instrument panel, rather than over it! I spent much if my early flights sitting on a map pack! Thankfully, the aircraft only had an endurance of about an hour and a half! The later seat, which had a base consisting of the fibreglass personal survival pack, was a big improvement. A later mod was to fit a raised hoop to the back if the seat to bring the shoulder harness attachment point up to somewhere near shoulder level. Needless to say, my spine is rather messed up.
Even the airline guys complain about their seats. I'm fortunate in that I've never had a problem with seats in the types flown, cars a different story. Only gripe I've ever had was the lack of air, as in ventilation, in the 76. Whoever it was that decided to place that little half inch gasper pointed directly to the top of the head was having an off day. Bald now, so perhaps it would work.
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Even in relatively modern aircraft, the pilot, and therefore the seat, are an afterthought. The AW139 that I've been flying for the last 3+ years has a variety of different seats ranging from appalling in the short nose aircraft to just about ok in some of the newer machines. However on our most recent aircraft, the seats with armrests (which do help) are not fitted, but instead a very short leg, lightweight seat which gives no support to the thighs.
Another of the problems is that the cushions end up compressed so badly after being flown by some of my more "fuller sized" colleagues and not being renewed at appropriate intervals. Management has talked about replacing them for as long as I have been in the company, but (surprisingly), nothing has yet happened.
The most recent contribution to poor seating posture has been the introduction of lifejackets with a built in air supply. The bottles are not light, and even after short flights, pilots are complaining of back ache because of the lack of arm support which helps keep the spine straight.
As usual, its the pilots, who can sit in these seats for up to 7 or 8 hours in a day, get the cheapest option available.
Another of the problems is that the cushions end up compressed so badly after being flown by some of my more "fuller sized" colleagues and not being renewed at appropriate intervals. Management has talked about replacing them for as long as I have been in the company, but (surprisingly), nothing has yet happened.
The most recent contribution to poor seating posture has been the introduction of lifejackets with a built in air supply. The bottles are not light, and even after short flights, pilots are complaining of back ache because of the lack of arm support which helps keep the spine straight.
As usual, its the pilots, who can sit in these seats for up to 7 or 8 hours in a day, get the cheapest option available.
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SHYTORQUE,
Sounds like the same guy designed the Gazelle armoured seat - I reckon thats the main reason why I cant put my socks on in the morning now!
Sounds like the same guy designed the Gazelle armoured seat - I reckon thats the main reason why I cant put my socks on in the morning now!
Thread Starter
Management has talked about replacing them for as long as I have been in the company, but (surprisingly), nothing has yet happened.
Perhaps those rotund Pilots are Senior to you!