Silverstone GP Heli Ops
Thanks also from me,even though I only arrived and parked, and departed after the racing---- just couldn`t get to sleep in the back of the Jet-box, have to book one of the new "sleepers " for next year!! Thanks guys and gals !!!!!!
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surfingatco,
Just out of interest, what are the air space restrictions around silverstone when the grand prix is on? From memory I seem to recall that the field lies in uncontrolled airspace and doesnt have an aerodrome traffic zone.
Just out of interest, what are the air space restrictions around silverstone when the grand prix is on? From memory I seem to recall that the field lies in uncontrolled airspace and doesnt have an aerodrome traffic zone.
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AIC 41/2004 gave details of the TRA, SFC - 2500ft (QNH) which was active on Saturday and Sunday. It extended about 1 mile beyond the Silverstone ATZ (yes they have one!) except for the Turweston ATZ. The nearest controlled airspace is the Daventry CTA, FL65 straight up!
SA
SA
Last edited by surfingatco; 25th Jul 2004 at 07:40.
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Silverstone and UK Operators
Now that Silverstone looks like it will be dropped from the Grand Prix Calendar (final decision on the 13/10), what does this mean for the UK helicopter market?
Many years ago I used to work for a large operator (no names but a number of sites in the South East) and they used to make somewhere in the region of 70% of their profits off the back of the Grand Prix weekend. Whilst this information may be out of date, if this is true across the UK, what will be the effects for the marketplace as a whole?
Many years ago I used to work for a large operator (no names but a number of sites in the South East) and they used to make somewhere in the region of 70% of their profits off the back of the Grand Prix weekend. Whilst this information may be out of date, if this is true across the UK, what will be the effects for the marketplace as a whole?
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bernie e tried to drop the ukgp last year,
he wants more money from brdc to run it, brdc dont want to pay bernie as much for the gp etc etc.
whilst i would rather see the gp binned and better quality racing in its place, i reckon it will still be back next year so i would not worry
he wants more money from brdc to run it, brdc dont want to pay bernie as much for the gp etc etc.
whilst i would rather see the gp binned and better quality racing in its place, i reckon it will still be back next year so i would not worry
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An absolute disgrace and hot on the heels of the Jaguar and Cosworth sales not been a very good couple of weeks for motorsport in the UK and the midlands in particular.
Ecclestone is a didtator who needs to be stopped before he ruins the heritage of a once great sport.
Of couse this decision also impacts on many Helo operators although probably to a lesser extent than in years gone by as the pax numbers continue to fall as a direct result of road improvements.
The real question is why dont the UK based teams react by not racing, the public by not watching and the helo operators by not chartering aircraft to Bernie or his crew!!!
Ecclestone is a didtator who needs to be stopped before he ruins the heritage of a once great sport.
Of couse this decision also impacts on many Helo operators although probably to a lesser extent than in years gone by as the pax numbers continue to fall as a direct result of road improvements.
The real question is why dont the UK based teams react by not racing, the public by not watching and the helo operators by not chartering aircraft to Bernie or his crew!!!
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Maybe you should change your handle to Eurobo**ocks. You are so wrong. F1 would have died years ago if Ecclestone hadn't grabbed it by the ears and turned it into a multi-million earner for the UK. Prior to the commercialisation of F1, it was all done out of backstreet garages, the prize money was not a reflection of the gate, and the tv networks were getting sport for nothing.
Facts are that the idiots who ran Silverstone prior to 2000 didn't invest in the future. They had a big warning with the traffic problems several years ago - and still they just kept wearing their BRDC blazers and ties and scoffed at Bernie.
The man's a ringmaster. If you don't like his circus, fine. There are plenty of places that welcome F1 with open arms and friendly governments.
I bet Silverstone is wishing Bernie had given more than £1m to Bliar's Bank.
Silverstone has always been a windswept hell-hole, run by prehistorics. This is now their come-uppance.
As for helis - well some of these companies deserve everything that's happening. The business practises of some UK operators over the years (in relation to Silverstone) have been disgusting.
Facts are that the idiots who ran Silverstone prior to 2000 didn't invest in the future. They had a big warning with the traffic problems several years ago - and still they just kept wearing their BRDC blazers and ties and scoffed at Bernie.
The man's a ringmaster. If you don't like his circus, fine. There are plenty of places that welcome F1 with open arms and friendly governments.
I bet Silverstone is wishing Bernie had given more than £1m to Bliar's Bank.
Silverstone has always been a windswept hell-hole, run by prehistorics. This is now their come-uppance.
As for helis - well some of these companies deserve everything that's happening. The business practises of some UK operators over the years (in relation to Silverstone) have been disgusting.
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I could be wrong but it was my impression that it would be the end of the British Grand Prix. Therefore the operators couldn`t go anywhere else. (Unless they wanted to travel to Europe)
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headsethair
No-one can deny Ecclestone's money-making acumen, but I share Eurobolkow's contempt for his methods.
It's true he put F1 on a more commercial footing, but he did so in a way which made himself a fortune (about £2.3 billion if the 2003 Times Rich List is even vaguely accurate) and has everyone else by the short and curlies. Any benefit to the sport was and is purely coincidental.
Of course he negotiated lucrative deals for television rights, but he gets the lion's share (53%) and the 10 teams get 4.7% each.
Sunday's Chinese Grand Prix was probably Ecclestone's biggest pay-day to date - $40m (£22.3m) - but the teams don't get a share of that.
By all means scoff at the BRDC, but the members are all current/former professional drivers, amateur drivers who've achieved distinction competing internationally and others who've made a significant contribution to British motorsport - and, in stark contrast to Ecclestone, they have a genuine concern for British motorsport. Perhaps you share Ecclestone's disdain for such old-fashioned values.
'Blazers and ties'? The image you're trying to portray went a long time ago, and the traffic problems which used to be horrendous have now also been resolved.
'Plenty of places that welcome F1 with open arms.' Silverstone is one of them; the BRDC is desperately trying to keep the British Grand Prix and struggling to raise the fantastic fee Ecclestone demands. They're prepared to run it at a loss, but they can't afford to keep making losses of the magnitude Ecclestone's fee involves or they'd go bust. This year's Grand Prix was a sell-out, but they still lost £3+ million by the time they paid Ecclestone.
'Friendly governments.' It's hardly the BRDC's fault that the British government won't subsidise the British GP in the way other governments subsidise theirs. The BRDC has been trying to persuade the goverment for years, but without success. Of course, if Ecclestone wasn't so greedy, there'd be no need for the British or other governments to subsidise their national Grand Prix.
You're right that F1 used to be run by 'backstreet garage' teams which didn't capitalise on the sport as much as they could/should have. Ecclestone's deals which offered them easy money must have seemed very attractive at the time. If they hadn't been so wrapped up in their enthusiasm for the sport, they would have realised his deals weren't quite as attractive as they appeared.
Governormalfunction
There is nowhere else.
The only other British circuit which can host a Grand Prix is Donington. The owner, Tom Wheatcroft, hosted one GP in 1993 to fulfil a long-held personal ambition, but I doubt if he could afford to do it annually.
The Brands Hatch circuit isn't suitable for modern F1. To make it suitable, and build the necessary infrastructure, would require an enormous investment.
No-one can deny Ecclestone's money-making acumen, but I share Eurobolkow's contempt for his methods.
It's true he put F1 on a more commercial footing, but he did so in a way which made himself a fortune (about £2.3 billion if the 2003 Times Rich List is even vaguely accurate) and has everyone else by the short and curlies. Any benefit to the sport was and is purely coincidental.
Of course he negotiated lucrative deals for television rights, but he gets the lion's share (53%) and the 10 teams get 4.7% each.
Sunday's Chinese Grand Prix was probably Ecclestone's biggest pay-day to date - $40m (£22.3m) - but the teams don't get a share of that.
By all means scoff at the BRDC, but the members are all current/former professional drivers, amateur drivers who've achieved distinction competing internationally and others who've made a significant contribution to British motorsport - and, in stark contrast to Ecclestone, they have a genuine concern for British motorsport. Perhaps you share Ecclestone's disdain for such old-fashioned values.
'Blazers and ties'? The image you're trying to portray went a long time ago, and the traffic problems which used to be horrendous have now also been resolved.
'Plenty of places that welcome F1 with open arms.' Silverstone is one of them; the BRDC is desperately trying to keep the British Grand Prix and struggling to raise the fantastic fee Ecclestone demands. They're prepared to run it at a loss, but they can't afford to keep making losses of the magnitude Ecclestone's fee involves or they'd go bust. This year's Grand Prix was a sell-out, but they still lost £3+ million by the time they paid Ecclestone.
'Friendly governments.' It's hardly the BRDC's fault that the British government won't subsidise the British GP in the way other governments subsidise theirs. The BRDC has been trying to persuade the goverment for years, but without success. Of course, if Ecclestone wasn't so greedy, there'd be no need for the British or other governments to subsidise their national Grand Prix.
You're right that F1 used to be run by 'backstreet garage' teams which didn't capitalise on the sport as much as they could/should have. Ecclestone's deals which offered them easy money must have seemed very attractive at the time. If they hadn't been so wrapped up in their enthusiasm for the sport, they would have realised his deals weren't quite as attractive as they appeared.
Governormalfunction
There is nowhere else.
The only other British circuit which can host a Grand Prix is Donington. The owner, Tom Wheatcroft, hosted one GP in 1993 to fulfil a long-held personal ambition, but I doubt if he could afford to do it annually.
The Brands Hatch circuit isn't suitable for modern F1. To make it suitable, and build the necessary infrastructure, would require an enormous investment.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 1st Oct 2004 at 17:59.
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so was the parade in the city just that? assuming the cost is not toooo bad, what would be the problem with a Monaco style GP? Surely long term the benefits would outweigh the initial outlay, or is this assuming an organisation not including Herr Ecclestone?
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An excellent appraisal Flying Lawyer if I may say so - yes I keep a look out from the (rotary) wings - and I also agree with triple S that it will be back at Silverstone next year.
However, Formula 1 deserves to be a milkable cow because it is pretty unexciting when compared with most other classes of motor racing invloving enthusiasts and if Bernie can why shouldn't the rest of us?
ANOrak
However, Formula 1 deserves to be a milkable cow because it is pretty unexciting when compared with most other classes of motor racing invloving enthusiasts and if Bernie can why shouldn't the rest of us?
ANOrak
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Cor blimey ..... never understood why so many people paid so much pointless money for themselves or their clients to be able to rush out and glimpse tyresome noisesome machines zotting past them and then rush back into the hospitality tent to watch the rest of the race on the big video screen. And then that never ending howl of helicopters before and after the race. Enough to make you vote green.
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FL: I admire your attempts to blame the teams. But the hard facts are that the loss of the GP is down to the relationship between Ecclestone and Silverstone. A match made in hell. He has never liked the place, nor the people. The only British promoter that he ever liked was John Webb who used to run the group of circuits which included Brands Hatch. (The GP used to alternate between Brands and Silverstone.)
But once John was gone, the GP went permanently to Silverstone because it was the only place in this whole kingdom that could offer what was needed at the time.
As for the London display - that's exactly what it was. The use of public property for commercial exposure - discuss. Ken Livingstone's re-election fund - discuss.
And isn't interesting how many heli people have an involvement with motorsport - or is it the other way ?
Keep up the great work you do FL. But on this one, we differ. (Probably because I once turned down membership of the BRDC!)
But once John was gone, the GP went permanently to Silverstone because it was the only place in this whole kingdom that could offer what was needed at the time.
As for the London display - that's exactly what it was. The use of public property for commercial exposure - discuss. Ken Livingstone's re-election fund - discuss.
And isn't interesting how many heli people have an involvement with motorsport - or is it the other way ?
Keep up the great work you do FL. But on this one, we differ. (Probably because I once turned down membership of the BRDC!)
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Visited Qatar MotoGP qualifying yesterday. A circuit which has a grandstand and no access to the rest for the paying public. A grandstand that seats about 3500 in total. Which would have been lucky to have had 10% of that in yesterday!!
In comparision a Spanish MotoGP race would draw 200,000.
Oh and besides being hugely sponsored by the Qatari goverment is also the Marlboro Qatar Motorcycle Grand Prix.
Welcome to the commercial world where races aren't where you really want them to be!!!
In comparision a Spanish MotoGP race would draw 200,000.
Oh and besides being hugely sponsored by the Qatari goverment is also the Marlboro Qatar Motorcycle Grand Prix.
Welcome to the commercial world where races aren't where you really want them to be!!!
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Governormalfunction - the London display was a stunt pure and simple. I'm sure a lot of people would like to see a 'London GP' (there was quite a lot of excitement about Birmingham years ago as well) but I can't see it happening. Why not?
1. Yes there is Monaco, but the drivers hate it. Few run-off areas and the penalty for a moment's slip is at best the instant end of their race. The only reasons for it still being on the calendar are tradition and the glamour that brings the sponsors out in droves, bigger droves than at any other F1 meeting.
2. You can shut Monaco's roads down for most of a week without harming its economy. Who can say what proportion of its residents' wealth is earned overseas? I can't either, but I bet it's huge. Contrast this with London, where the spread of wealth is much greater, and a week's lost business would drive a lot of the smaller places down the toilet.
3. Security. The authorities will issue dire warnings about the terrorist threat.
4. The condition of the road surface. I'm sure Jarvis, Amey, Carillon etc are all doing their best. That's the problem.
5. The law. Isn't this the reason we have the Isle of Mann TT and the roadracing in Ireland, but no such thing on the British mainland?
6. The lack of a tradition - 'it's never been done before'. It would take the drive and determination of somebody even more charismatic and monomaniacal than Ken Livingstone to bulldoze it through the above.
Agree? Disagree?
Actually I'm gutted I never got to Silverstone just to watch the heli operation. I wouldn't have flown in, even if I could have afforded it - several pilots said 'go by motorbike'.
1. Yes there is Monaco, but the drivers hate it. Few run-off areas and the penalty for a moment's slip is at best the instant end of their race. The only reasons for it still being on the calendar are tradition and the glamour that brings the sponsors out in droves, bigger droves than at any other F1 meeting.
2. You can shut Monaco's roads down for most of a week without harming its economy. Who can say what proportion of its residents' wealth is earned overseas? I can't either, but I bet it's huge. Contrast this with London, where the spread of wealth is much greater, and a week's lost business would drive a lot of the smaller places down the toilet.
3. Security. The authorities will issue dire warnings about the terrorist threat.
4. The condition of the road surface. I'm sure Jarvis, Amey, Carillon etc are all doing their best. That's the problem.
5. The law. Isn't this the reason we have the Isle of Mann TT and the roadracing in Ireland, but no such thing on the British mainland?
6. The lack of a tradition - 'it's never been done before'. It would take the drive and determination of somebody even more charismatic and monomaniacal than Ken Livingstone to bulldoze it through the above.
Agree? Disagree?
Actually I'm gutted I never got to Silverstone just to watch the heli operation. I wouldn't have flown in, even if I could have afforded it - several pilots said 'go by motorbike'.
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You're right - it takes an Act of Parliament to close roads in England. The London Marathon and others manage it because it's for a short time only - a GP would need a week of closures.
There's another reason why London will never happen - racetracks shouldn't have roads with severe crowns. This is why there were so many accidents in Birmingham. Did anyone see the Q session there when Jean Alesi launched his F3000 through a large advertising hoarding ?
All London roads have strong crowns for drainage.
There's another reason why London will never happen - racetracks shouldn't have roads with severe crowns. This is why there were so many accidents in Birmingham. Did anyone see the Q session there when Jean Alesi launched his F3000 through a large advertising hoarding ?
All London roads have strong crowns for drainage.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Silverstone has never been one of my favourite tracks, because to visit as a spectator like so many others, the viewing positions are so poor. Its departure from the scene is in my eyes a good kick up the backside for the money grabbers. Unless you are willing to pay even more than the extortionate price for a decent grandstand position, it's at best a quick burst of noise, a flash of colour and who's next! Even if you do pay that price, you soon want to move around a bit to get a different view.
I have seen it admitted on TV, by one of Maxs boys, that its not for the spectator on circuit, its about TV, sponsors and courtesy facilities.
Whats wrong with building up the trackside with grassed areas much like at the open areas at Oulton Park / Thruxton / Croft ? This gives the paying public good views of a selection of 'likely action points'. Brands is a brilliant circuit for the spectator albeit on a big race day a bit too crowded, but unfortunately not up to scratch for F1.
If we remember, Spa was cancelled as a F1 venue which was criminal, enjoyed by drivers and spectators alike. I had the fortune to go for a weekend a couple of years ago with my son and we had a good F1 experience. Tickets available at the entrance, access all round track and you could see the track! Not too crowded,(as in a good crowd/area ratio), refreshment areas decent toilets etc etc all for the spectator on circuit. Much in the same vein as Brands with it's woods and if needed 'quiet' areas.
Zandvoort again in the early 80's was similar. Sandbanked dune viewing areas, good facilities, etc .
Nurburgring, (another dad/son weekend), like Silverstone, not a spectators event, in fact an experience that put me off seeing F1 live again. Extortionate ticket price, caged off crowded areas that the ticket gave you access to only, flat viewing areas so unless you were at the front or on someones shoulders, you could only at best, give the race a good listening. But according to those in the know a brilliant circuit.....yea right, go there as a punter!. Maybe in the old days of the long circuit.
Monaco, as a family weekend brilliant, relive the circuit incidents. (I bought a postcard just across from where Schumey crashed in the tunnel.) But don't even think of going race week! Undeniably a magical circuit and any attempt to emulate it in London or Birmingham will just fall flat on its face. F3, FF, TOCA ok but not F1
Fortunately Spa is back, as I expect Silverstone will be after not too long , BUT, only because nowhere else will be allowed to host F1 in Britain.
Flying Lawyer, what's wrong with Rockingham?
The BRDC themselves have probably caused all the hard feeling, by not allowing BE to become one of their members.
This said F1 should never not have a British venue even if it must be Silverstone. Even if it doesn't host F1 again,no loss, just go to the Goodwood Revival weekend!
A blatant plug;
If you want to get involved, see as much of the action as possible close up, can spare the odd day during the season and look good in orange, why not become a marshal?
Do as much or as little as you can and help motorsport continue.
Race, sprint, rally all forms of motorsport need marshals.
For more info the BMMC website is here
To get back on the thread topic, I guess it will be one less venue and considering the amount of traffic for the weekends activities, a substantial blow for the industry perhaps.
I have seen it admitted on TV, by one of Maxs boys, that its not for the spectator on circuit, its about TV, sponsors and courtesy facilities.
Whats wrong with building up the trackside with grassed areas much like at the open areas at Oulton Park / Thruxton / Croft ? This gives the paying public good views of a selection of 'likely action points'. Brands is a brilliant circuit for the spectator albeit on a big race day a bit too crowded, but unfortunately not up to scratch for F1.
If we remember, Spa was cancelled as a F1 venue which was criminal, enjoyed by drivers and spectators alike. I had the fortune to go for a weekend a couple of years ago with my son and we had a good F1 experience. Tickets available at the entrance, access all round track and you could see the track! Not too crowded,(as in a good crowd/area ratio), refreshment areas decent toilets etc etc all for the spectator on circuit. Much in the same vein as Brands with it's woods and if needed 'quiet' areas.
Zandvoort again in the early 80's was similar. Sandbanked dune viewing areas, good facilities, etc .
Nurburgring, (another dad/son weekend), like Silverstone, not a spectators event, in fact an experience that put me off seeing F1 live again. Extortionate ticket price, caged off crowded areas that the ticket gave you access to only, flat viewing areas so unless you were at the front or on someones shoulders, you could only at best, give the race a good listening. But according to those in the know a brilliant circuit.....yea right, go there as a punter!. Maybe in the old days of the long circuit.
Monaco, as a family weekend brilliant, relive the circuit incidents. (I bought a postcard just across from where Schumey crashed in the tunnel.) But don't even think of going race week! Undeniably a magical circuit and any attempt to emulate it in London or Birmingham will just fall flat on its face. F3, FF, TOCA ok but not F1
Fortunately Spa is back, as I expect Silverstone will be after not too long , BUT, only because nowhere else will be allowed to host F1 in Britain.
Flying Lawyer, what's wrong with Rockingham?
The BRDC themselves have probably caused all the hard feeling, by not allowing BE to become one of their members.
This said F1 should never not have a British venue even if it must be Silverstone. Even if it doesn't host F1 again,no loss, just go to the Goodwood Revival weekend!
A blatant plug;
If you want to get involved, see as much of the action as possible close up, can spare the odd day during the season and look good in orange, why not become a marshal?
Do as much or as little as you can and help motorsport continue.
Race, sprint, rally all forms of motorsport need marshals.
For more info the BMMC website is here
To get back on the thread topic, I guess it will be one less venue and considering the amount of traffic for the weekends activities, a substantial blow for the industry perhaps.
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Headsethair
As you well know, I don't blame the teams for this problem. The dispute is nothing to do with them; I described the circumstances in which they were stitched up only to counter your comments about Ecclestone's contributions to F1.
At least we're agreed on one thing. You wrote
A couple of days ago, in a similar discussion in Jetblast, I wrote
We'll have to agree to disagree about the BRDC. Although I don't think they're blameless, they've always had to cope with Ecclestone's loathing of them and his power to make them squirm.
I'd put 50p on a late addition to next year's calendar when Ecclestone's had his fun making the BRDC beg.
Sid
Unfortunately, it's not the money-grabber who's getting "a good kick up the backside". He has a monopoly and simply grabs his money elsewhere - his calendar is full.
The prices of decent grandstand seats seems extortionate, but the BRDC has no choice but to charge them. Even with a sell-out at very high prices, the club still loses millions because of what they have to pay Ecclestone to host the Grand Prix.
The club can't make any money from trackside advertising because he has control of that, and they get nothing from the televising fees - 53% to Ecclestone and 4.7% each to the teams.
I don't know enough about Rockingham to comment.
As you well know, I don't blame the teams for this problem. The dispute is nothing to do with them; I described the circumstances in which they were stitched up only to counter your comments about Ecclestone's contributions to F1.
At least we're agreed on one thing. You wrote
"But the hard facts are that the loss of the GP is down to the relationship between Ecclestone and Silverstone. A match made in hell. He has never liked the place, nor the people."
"The real issues are the fantastic sums Ecclestone demands and the 'politics' between Ecclestone and the BRDC which go back a very long way .......... Ecclestone and the BRDC have a completely different attitude to British motorsport, and clashes of personality between him and certain key members who run the BRDC don't help."
I'd put 50p on a late addition to next year's calendar when Ecclestone's had his fun making the BRDC beg.
Sid
Unfortunately, it's not the money-grabber who's getting "a good kick up the backside". He has a monopoly and simply grabs his money elsewhere - his calendar is full.
The prices of decent grandstand seats seems extortionate, but the BRDC has no choice but to charge them. Even with a sell-out at very high prices, the club still loses millions because of what they have to pay Ecclestone to host the Grand Prix.
The club can't make any money from trackside advertising because he has control of that, and they get nothing from the televising fees - 53% to Ecclestone and 4.7% each to the teams.
I don't know enough about Rockingham to comment.