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What would make the PERFECT Flying Jacket?

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What would make the PERFECT Flying Jacket?

Old 21st Dec 2004, 22:53
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What would make the PERFECT Flying Jacket?

Dependant on the type of Operation (HEMS/POLICE/SAR/CIVILIAN) What would make the perfect flying jacket?

ARM POCKET - What is the best you have used or seen? - What should a good pocket include? (e.g Space for pens and a Torch?) - Any need for a zip pocket for Epaulettes etc?
ID BADGE - Is it a requirement to have an ID badge on the left chest? - If so Velcro attached or permanent fixing?
EPAULETTES - Do you need epaulette flaps?
CUFFS - Do you find that some jackets catch on controls etc? - Would it be an idea to have adjustable cuffs so they don't catch?
UNDERARM ZIPS - When you get hot in cockpit, would underarm vent zips be useful?
POCKETS - What type of pockets are required, and for what items?(e.g What type of radios do you use and could they be stored on the jacket?)
FABRIC - Colour? - Do you need them to be high viz with scotchlite tape on? - Do they need to be Fire resistant?
AREAS OF WEAR - What areas wear quickest and why? (e.g Do your elbows wear when you are treating a patient?)
COLLAR - What type of collar and why?(e.g Collar with hood? Collar that doesn't get in the way of the helmet?)
WAISTBAND - Drawstring pulleys like Ski jackets or elastic like MA2 jackets?
STORAGE - How can they be stored in cockpit to keep them out og the way?(e.g Would a drawstring bag be useful to attach somewhere?
LINER - Do they need to be waterproof? Would a zip in/out fleece be useful?
LOGOS - What type of logos are required and could be used as standard?
ARM FREQUENCY POCKET - If a clear plastic arm pocket could be put onto the jackets, would this come in handy for frequencies, patient details etc or not?
CUT - DO you find jackets at the moment to be cumbersome or uncomfortable to wear in the cockpit? - Would a jacket that is more flexible be better? - What types of area get in they way?


I can disclose that Scrawny is a major manufacturer of top quality flying jackets.
We agreed that he wouldn't mention the name of his company in his research/questionnaire so as to avoid breaching PPRuNe's 'No advertising in posts' rule.

This is a unique opportunity for pilots to have some input into the design and features they'd like to see in the 'perfect' jacket.
Most of us have worn jackets which we've liked, but would have liked even more 'if only it had' ....... whatever.
Well, now's our chance.

We may even persuade Scrawny to call the new model 'The Rotorheads' in return for our help.

Heliport
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Old 22nd Dec 2004, 06:26
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You looking to make it?

Well, in that case, the most important issue for me is to have a jacket that fits my womanly curves with arm and body length appropriate for a person of shorter stature

Cheers

Whirlygig
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Old 22nd Dec 2004, 06:41
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Had mine made with extra long sleeves so it still reaches my wrists when I ride a motorcycle:


Dependant on the type of Operation (HEMS/POLICE/SAR/CIVILIAN) What would make the perfect flying jacket?

ARM POCKET - What is the best you have used or seen? - What should a good pocket include? (e.g Space for pens and a Torch?) - Any need for a zip pocket for Epaulettes etc? THINK ANY POCKET WOULD DO FOR EPAULETTES. WOULD LIKE SOMETHING TO KEEP CELL PHONE SECURE.

ID BADGE - Is it a requirement to have an ID badge on the left chest? - If so Velcro attached or permanent fixing? VELCRO, OTHERWISE YOU LOOK LIKE A DORK OFF BASE.

EPAULETTES - Do you need epaulette flaps? YES BUT IF THEY ARE MADE SO THEY DON'T CATCH ON HEADSET CORDS.

CUFFS - Do you find that some jackets catch on controls etc? - HAVE ELASTIC CUFFS ON USN JACKET - WORKS WELL.

UNDERARM ZIPS - When you get hot in cockpit, would underarm vent zips be useful? YEP, AND INTEGRAL AIR CON PLEASE. OR ZIP OFF SLEEVES ?

POCKETS - What type of pockets are required, and for what items?(e.g What type of radios do you use and could they be stored on the jacket?) SOMETHING FOR LEATHERMAN AS NO BELT IF WEARING FLIGHT SUIT UNDERNEATH

FABRIC - Colour? - Do you need them to be high viz with scotchlite tape on? - Do they need to be Fire resistant? I SUSPECT YOU'D NEED A RANGE TO MEET ALL TASTES.

AREAS OF WEAR - What areas wear quickest and why? (e.g Do your elbows wear when you are treating a patient?) NO COMMENT.

COLLAR - What type of collar and why?(e.g Collar with hood? Collar that doesn't get in the way of the helmet?) DON'T THINK NEED HOOD BUT IF SO, ZIPPED INSIDE COLLAR ?

WAISTBAND - Drawstring pulleys like Ski jackets or elastic like MA2 jackets? SAFETY ISSUE ON DRAWSTRINGS ? SNAGGING ?

STORAGE - How can they be stored in cockpit to keep them out og the way?(e.g Would a drawstring bag be useful to attach somewhere? DON'T KNOW. JUST DURABLE ENOUGH TO BE CHUCKED IN BOOT.

LINER - Do they need to be waterproof? IF IT'S BREATHABLE. Would a zip in/out fleece be useful? MINE IS LIKE THAT BUT NEVER USE FLEECE LINING - MAYBE IN A COLDER CLIMATE ?

LOGOS - What type of logos are required and could be used as standard? COMPANY SPECIFIC I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT

ARM FREQUENCY POCKET - If a clear plastic arm pocket could be put onto the jackets, would this come in handy for frequencies, patient details etc or not? YES, VERY FOR SINGLE PILOT OPS. SAVES WRITING ON THE BACK OF YOUR HAND.

CUT - DO you find jackets at the moment to be cumbersome or uncomfortable to wear in the cockpit? YES - Would a jacket that is more flexible be better?YES - What types of area get in they way? BUNCH UP AT WAIST. DIFFICULT TO OPEN UP FRONT PAST HARNESSES WHEN GET TOO WARM. RIDE UP AND EXPOSE BACK AND ARMS WHEN DOING PREFLIGHT. SLEEVES SNAG WHILE PUTTING HANDS INSIDE COWLINGS ETC.

WHERE DO I ORDER MY 'WONDERJACKET' ? OH YES, AND A FOIL SURVIVAL BAG SEWN INTO THE LINING, AND SOMETHING TO HOLD A WATER BOTTLE, AND X-RAY PROOF SO I DON'T HAVE TO TAKE ALL MY **** OUT OF POCKETS AT IMMIGRATION, AND AUTOMATIC DEODORANT FOR THOSE LONG HOT DAYS, AND...
 
Old 22nd Dec 2004, 10:33
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IMHO - Take an RAF Cold Weather Jacket and make it in a variety of colours, then perhaps add your clever sleeve frequency pocket thingy.

I'll have one.
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Old 22nd Dec 2004, 11:01
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Absolutely with JAFO, even better if you could make it in leather (but that's just snob value). The only thing I'd add would be an ICOM radio pocket, maybe positioned like a gun pocket, for those occasions when I need to use one in lieu of the aircraft radio (or to shove a handheld GPS in otherwise).


(Actually they do look a little smarter than that, just the only picture I could find)

G
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Old 22nd Dec 2004, 15:20
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The questions are aimed at finding out what problems professional pilots had in their everyday jobs.

I'm interested in operational issues, and as to the sorts of problems there are when using jackets in the cockpits or out on recue jobs. I can't believe that any of the companies mentioned have covered all pilots/crews issues??
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Old 22nd Dec 2004, 19:03
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How about Claudia Schiffer ?
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Old 22nd Dec 2004, 20:48
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Genghis
(Actually they do look a little smarter than that, just the only picture I could find)
You ain't seen the way I used to wear mine. Wish I'd kept it. I'd also have one in leather if anyone felt like making one.
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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 03:27
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Got to agree with Genghis. The good ole RAF aircrew Mk3 Jacket, Cold Weather actually does the job (new colour looks a tad naff though!). I have used the USAF MA 1 stuff and although it makes you feel and look the DsBs, it falls short on practicallity.

Genghis, typical slapdash and shoddy crabism!!

Here is a pic of the Mk3 Jacket. Awaiting the obvious Army sewn in creases and starched collar!!
Mk3

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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 09:35
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So there you go, we all want RAF Mk.3 cold weather jackets, made to look a bit smarter, with a see-through frequency pocket on the sleeve and a gun pocket for your Icom.

Job done

Now what colour do we want?

G
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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 11:34
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Genghis,
Why are they more practical than other jackets? If it's the design, what is it about the design?
What is an ICOM radio and what sort of size is this?
Place where gun pocket should be? Where would that be?
Are the buttons on the front of the jacket not a pain to keep doing up?
Does the collar not get in the way of helmets?
Do they keep you warm enough?
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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 12:01
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(1) Very comfortable, virtually indistructible, very little restriction of movement, pockets in the right places and a buttoned baffle across the front for drafty cockpits. The side pockets zip reducing FOD risk. There is a concealed waterproof hood. They are also very warm whilst being quite thin - they are happy with a LSJ over the top (whilst my other flying jacket, a USAF B-3 copy is very uncomfortable with anything over the top and much more restrictive in a cramped cockpit - although much nicer in a totally open cockpit). Oh yes, it takes badges well too.

(2) http://www.airstoreone.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=ic3e; 57*153*35 mm (plus knobs and a rubber duck antenna stuck out of the top), 465 grammes.

(3) Just next to (and outside) the main zip slightly to the right of my left nipple. (And before anybody asks, that's in the same place as most other men's left nipples).

(4) Nope, and you can ignore them if it's not drafty. Big, chunky, only four, and easily handled with gloved hands.

(5) Not in my experience, I've flown fast jets, microlights and the odd helicopter - all wearing a helmet, whilst wearing one of these jackets and never had any discomfort so long as the collar is properly tucked down.

(6) For British winter yes, I can't speak for anybody else's winter since I only usually fly in ours.

In fact it may be the only bit of British military flying clothing that is better than anybody else's (except maybe the cape leather gloves, and those are too cold in a drafty cockpit).

G

Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 23rd Dec 2004 at 12:16.
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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 12:40
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I've deleted recommendations about manufacturers. I happen to agree with the favourable comments about the manufacturer mentioned most, but the object of this exercise is not to recommend existing products but to design a new one which satisfies the working needs of helicopter pilots.

Keep the ideas about style and features coming.


Heliport


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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 16:41
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Whatever you come up with, if they can do a version which actually fits women, you'll make lots of people very happy...well, alright, a few of us anyway.
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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 17:32
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We wear leather jackets. This is borne out through experience rather than posing value!
(a) The leather jacket (if treated well) will outlast these other 'scraggy' cloth jackets by years and years. Therefore it is better value for money for us.
(b) The leather jacket is virtually wind proof and very insulating. This covers most of our needs when on the ground waiting around for some action! The old ones were unable to provide the same thermal level of warmth over long periods.
(c) Because they look smart, people look after them. They take pride in wearing them.

What does a jacket need: [For UK needs]

Deep pockets / epaulettes / Pen holder on shoulder section for 2 to 3 pens. High pull up collar. Inside pockets / zip and popper front. More pockets!.
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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 18:23
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The jacket would definetly need a pocket that would hold a flash light , perhaps a mini mag light and a pocket for a leatherman.
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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 18:33
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I echo the comments of Genghis.

I've also worn the cold weather jacket in a variety of aircraft both fixed wing and rotary and never found better. At the moment I wear the leather jacket supplied by my employer for most of my flying but often find it too cumbersome, a lot of the time I've taken to wearing a fleece.

I'll happily test out anything based on the cold weather jacket and I'd even part with cash for a new jacket based on it, and that's saying something.

JAFO

Genghis - As an aside have you tried the silk inners with cape leather gloves? It makes an amazing difference.

Edited to remove reference to having an idea for another type of jacket as someone's already had it.

Last edited by J.A.F.O.; 23rd Dec 2004 at 20:32.
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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 18:52
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I too like the RAF Cold Weather Jacket but it could be improved upon:

Firstly, the look needs to be more tailored to ensure pilots remain smart on the job.

The velcro on the cuffs wears out and the tabs flap about aimlessly after a couple of years use - maybe a press stud instead (or elastic works for me; provided it's tension is adjustable). Ditto Velcro on the epaulettes.

The RAF Jacket material soaks up water like a sponge after a some use - I'd like to see a fire-proof, water proof and breathable material employed for both lining and outer. It should also be resistant to oil and jet fuel.

The outer should be available in a selection of colours; black, navy, dark grey etc.

The inner should be day-glo yellow with reflective strips sewn in; when reversed, this would then double as a high-viz jacket when airside and as a useful location aid should the worst happen.

It should be machine washable (and ironable for the army types!)

Pen and mag-lite pockets on the arm- definitely!

Mobile phone pocket - yes. Radio pocket - no thanks; too bulky. Frequency card pocket optional - could look scruffy after use.
Main pockets to be zipped to prevent FOD.

Huge pocket on the inside for my wallet and ferrari keys............ sorry; must have nodded off for a minute!

J
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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 22:06
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Thumbs up

I'm with Genghis on this one: not much beats the Crab cold weather flying jacket on practicality and long term wear. I scrounged my first one in 1968 at Linton (and I mean scrounge, RN Mids were certainly not expected to fly in the snow in Chipmunks in anything designed to maintain body heat ), and still have one issued about 25 years ago, and going strong.

Practical points - I've the usual collection of jackets and:

Leather looks neat, but often doesn't wear well.
Difficult to get a neat cuff on a leather jacket (my USN one is good, but often needs replacing).
Sleeve pockets are a waste of space, IMO.
Pen pockets on sleeves are best as per the crab Mk3 jacket
Length is important, the Mk3 has a fold out crotch flap which looks naff, but is very effective in keeping the kidneys warm
Colour choice should be available, and the idea of a hi vis reflective stripe somewhere has merit. I'm not a fan of reversible jackets, if you're injured, trapped, swimming or any combination of, then you are stuck with what you have.
Ski jackets often have a fascinating collection of hidden and practical pockets, which could be copied over to a flying jacket. Karbon are my favourite, have a look at their pockets for ideas.
Epaulettes should be an option: not always wanted, and they can hook up on shoulder harnesses in some helicopters.
Collar (and hidden hood) should be slim, otherwise they can dislodge a headset when you turn your head.
After years of use (at least 35?), the RAF jacket is still in production, with minimum changes: there must be a reason
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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 23:01
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Putting a radio, or anything else that is hard and a little bulky, just to the right of my left nipple isn't a good idea, IMO. That's right where the shoulder harness goes, and just about over my sternum. Maybe I'm not as broad as Genghis, but I emphatically do not want a gun pocket, nor any other pocket, there. I haven't worn one of those jackets, but they look remarkably like the standard ski jacket from many of the online outdoor retailers in the US. I have a leather flying jacket, and I like it most of the time, but the stretch stuff around the bottom isn't the best idea. It rides up and leaves your kidneys exposed during preflight when you're climbing around. The Mk3 and similar are an improvement there. I have one sort of like it, but in nicer colors, with a zip-in liner, and it works pretty well, but I admit I wear my leather jacket most of the time. The sleeve pocket with pen slots is one thing I miss about all my current jackets. Do not leave that off.
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