EC120
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: canada
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Know a few engineers who wrench on 120's here in canada. Most of their comments seem to be "They're not a bush machine (yet...), there's so many AD's and newer parts being mandated that an engineer would have to be on site with the machine all the time."
But I'm sure 206's had that problem. Guess we'll have to give the 120 nearly 40 years and see how it's doing.
But I'm sure 206's had that problem. Guess we'll have to give the 120 nearly 40 years and see how it's doing.
Cool as a moosp
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Mostly Hong Kong
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Colibri,
Thanks for that. Ours is with EC Singapore right now getting some repairs done, and I have asked them about the battery problem, and how I have seen some machines with a device like a truck battery switch fitted in the earth line. They had not heard of it, but after they ask France maybe we'll hear more.
Thanks for that. Ours is with EC Singapore right now getting some repairs done, and I have asked them about the battery problem, and how I have seen some machines with a device like a truck battery switch fitted in the earth line. They had not heard of it, but after they ask France maybe we'll hear more.
Join Date: Sep 2004
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EC120!
Can’t budge for the B206, cause I haven’t flown it. Some of my friends tell me it’s a very good machine and a pleasure to fly, but from my point of view the EC120 is the best. It’s a “Pilot’s” machine; you really need to “fly” it. Yes the power is limited, but that’s where the “flying” part comes into play. One has to “nurse” her and if you screw it up there’s always the VEMD that records it… So if the previous guy made a big hash of things, you’ll know it immediately, not 1 year down the line at 500 feet agl and at 100 knots…!
The 120 gets my vote!
Can’t budge for the B206, cause I haven’t flown it. Some of my friends tell me it’s a very good machine and a pleasure to fly, but from my point of view the EC120 is the best. It’s a “Pilot’s” machine; you really need to “fly” it. Yes the power is limited, but that’s where the “flying” part comes into play. One has to “nurse” her and if you screw it up there’s always the VEMD that records it… So if the previous guy made a big hash of things, you’ll know it immediately, not 1 year down the line at 500 feet agl and at 100 knots…!
The 120 gets my vote!
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
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the EC120 is what the 206 should have evolved into.
The lack of the bulkhead makes it more pleasuable for both pilot & pax. Obviously the 120 will have teething problems and eurocopter are making improvements all the time, whereas the 206 is a great reliable workhorse. With little competion to challenge the 206 for the past forty years, Bell didn't really need to spend more money developing the machine( and getting approvals $$$)
The lack of the bulkhead makes it more pleasuable for both pilot & pax. Obviously the 120 will have teething problems and eurocopter are making improvements all the time, whereas the 206 is a great reliable workhorse. With little competion to challenge the 206 for the past forty years, Bell didn't really need to spend more money developing the machine( and getting approvals $$$)
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
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Not flown it (yet), but looking for a project. I'm told the 120 also has a "complex" C of G arrangement, and is a pig to start up again within half an hour of shutting down, without opening the engine cowlings. Also, the throttle can get stiff after a while. Maybe someone else who operates them in the real world can put me straight?
For the project I'm looking at, the above concerns won't figure anyway, but they're still good to know about. And why would you deliberately choose an underpowered machine? Surely these days there's no excuse for that?
Phil
For the project I'm looking at, the above concerns won't figure anyway, but they're still good to know about. And why would you deliberately choose an underpowered machine? Surely these days there's no excuse for that?
Phil
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EC120 start and re-start have been discussed at great length on and off this forum. It's not a big deal as long as you follow the correct procedure. You can shut down, vent and start again immediately with no problem AS LONG AS your battery is good.
Main issue is that once you go through the gate the battery needs to retain the voltage to operate the relay to open the throttle stop so you can close the juice should a hot start look likely. Unfortunately, that could be due to a sudden drop in battery voltage itself which means you are buggered. Just watch the voltage and if it heads south of 17V then consider aborting and rolling out the ground power.
Some people, pilots and pax, prefer a bulkhead between them and a lot of pax don't like the way the 120 flies - waves its nose if you are not very careful and some, like the one I fly, have vibration problems that have proved hard to get rid of.
New modular Bell helicopters should give EC a run for its money.
EC's power is fine at sea level or ISA but in Africa or central Spain where you get hot and high, they just don't perform and take about three miles to get through transition.
Also, you can only take a v small adult or child in the front if you have a few pax and although it will take off and fly okay, you are quickly out of the CofG envelope which could get interesting if you have to auto. Have the findings on the US police 120 engine failure and fatal crash come through yet ?
Many guys don't like fenestrom and it is weak when hot and high - heard it is much smaller than originally planned to be - but you get used to using more foot earlier than on conventional tail rotor system. And it is sooo quiet, it's usually landed before people notice it arriving.
Baggage compartment is huge and with removable seats, access panel to rear and sliding door, the features combine to make a versatile machine for filming and other fun stuff. We have used it as a baggage carrier when taking two or three fully loaded 407s somewhere. It almost keeps up too.
VEMD is like a traitor on board that doesn't actually give you a fair chance, like say FADEC on the 407 does. Good for owners, unnerving for pilots.
It's a helicopter I like to be seen getting out of, review emergency and start procedures very carefully before flying, and don't trust the way I do a Jet Ranger. Wish it were a mini Squirrel but it ain't....yet.
Main issue is that once you go through the gate the battery needs to retain the voltage to operate the relay to open the throttle stop so you can close the juice should a hot start look likely. Unfortunately, that could be due to a sudden drop in battery voltage itself which means you are buggered. Just watch the voltage and if it heads south of 17V then consider aborting and rolling out the ground power.
Some people, pilots and pax, prefer a bulkhead between them and a lot of pax don't like the way the 120 flies - waves its nose if you are not very careful and some, like the one I fly, have vibration problems that have proved hard to get rid of.
New modular Bell helicopters should give EC a run for its money.
EC's power is fine at sea level or ISA but in Africa or central Spain where you get hot and high, they just don't perform and take about three miles to get through transition.
Also, you can only take a v small adult or child in the front if you have a few pax and although it will take off and fly okay, you are quickly out of the CofG envelope which could get interesting if you have to auto. Have the findings on the US police 120 engine failure and fatal crash come through yet ?
Many guys don't like fenestrom and it is weak when hot and high - heard it is much smaller than originally planned to be - but you get used to using more foot earlier than on conventional tail rotor system. And it is sooo quiet, it's usually landed before people notice it arriving.
Baggage compartment is huge and with removable seats, access panel to rear and sliding door, the features combine to make a versatile machine for filming and other fun stuff. We have used it as a baggage carrier when taking two or three fully loaded 407s somewhere. It almost keeps up too.
VEMD is like a traitor on board that doesn't actually give you a fair chance, like say FADEC on the 407 does. Good for owners, unnerving for pilots.
It's a helicopter I like to be seen getting out of, review emergency and start procedures very carefully before flying, and don't trust the way I do a Jet Ranger. Wish it were a mini Squirrel but it ain't....yet.
Join Date: Jun 2005
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I found the 120 to be quite well powered compared to the 206, I have only operated both machines at sea level. The 120 doesn't have the big rise in TOT when you do a pedal turn.
Phil if your referring to a hot start with a warm engine simply open the throttle just short of flight idle to avoid a hot start, This works really well on the 120.
I really like the 120 and found it easy to fly, Goaround7 summed it up. The CG does normally fall to far forward with 5 adults onboard but I found this problem with all helicopter I’ve flown with more than 4 seats and each seat occupied by an adult.
The sliding door can cause a few problems and be quite hard to close, The one we operated always use to catch the paint work on the engine cowling with the slide mechanism.
Did you read about the passenger sat in the rear in France the sliding door wasn't closed correctly and opened, the door blew away, Passenger grabbed the door he wasn't wearing his seat belt, he got pulled out by the door and fell to his death.
Phil if your referring to a hot start with a warm engine simply open the throttle just short of flight idle to avoid a hot start, This works really well on the 120.
I really like the 120 and found it easy to fly, Goaround7 summed it up. The CG does normally fall to far forward with 5 adults onboard but I found this problem with all helicopter I’ve flown with more than 4 seats and each seat occupied by an adult.
The sliding door can cause a few problems and be quite hard to close, The one we operated always use to catch the paint work on the engine cowling with the slide mechanism.
Did you read about the passenger sat in the rear in France the sliding door wasn't closed correctly and opened, the door blew away, Passenger grabbed the door he wasn't wearing his seat belt, he got pulled out by the door and fell to his death.
Join Date: Nov 2000
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I thought that incident was with a Squirrel!
Our loads are standard, so the CG would not necessarily be a problem. How is it for observation and noise from the outside?
Phil
Our loads are standard, so the CG would not necessarily be a problem. How is it for observation and noise from the outside?
Phil
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Hi Phil
I think it was a 120 if I remember correct I read it in GASIL so ill have a look.
I found the 120 quite good for photo & filming work, Camera men seem to like the big open door, Plus you can fly left or right seat PIC so it make filming easier with the sliding door on the left side.
Noise level in the cabin was good passenger's seemed to like it.
One comment would be the cloth seats on a longer flight (2 hours +) are not to comfortable you sink into them to much, I flew one a few months back with leather seat this was a lot more comfortable.
For the rear head sets the are no hooks to hang them on 2 fit between the headrests on the rear seats but the 3rd just sits on the seat, You need to watch the pax don't place the rear head sets between the rear seats and the window scratching the glass. For the price I'd of thought Eurocopter could have added a something to hang the headsets on.
We wasn’t allowed to use standard load plans like in the UK in the last company I worked for we always had to make a calculation, which was a pain.
I think it was a 120 if I remember correct I read it in GASIL so ill have a look.
I found the 120 quite good for photo & filming work, Camera men seem to like the big open door, Plus you can fly left or right seat PIC so it make filming easier with the sliding door on the left side.
Noise level in the cabin was good passenger's seemed to like it.
One comment would be the cloth seats on a longer flight (2 hours +) are not to comfortable you sink into them to much, I flew one a few months back with leather seat this was a lot more comfortable.
For the rear head sets the are no hooks to hang them on 2 fit between the headrests on the rear seats but the 3rd just sits on the seat, You need to watch the pax don't place the rear head sets between the rear seats and the window scratching the glass. For the price I'd of thought Eurocopter could have added a something to hang the headsets on.
We wasn’t allowed to use standard load plans like in the UK in the last company I worked for we always had to make a calculation, which was a pain.
Cool as a moosp
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One difference you really notice is the age of the design of the two machines. B206 - sixties technology and ergonomics. EC120, mid nineties. Everything from built-in safety/crashworthiness to passenger comfort and view has evolved in that time.
Payload/range of the EC120 can be a problem if you need to carry four big pax and their luggage. You won't get very far. But for private flying and joyrides, I don't think you can beat it. Unless you can afford an EC130, in which case go for it and enjoy, and can I have a go???
Payload/range of the EC120 can be a problem if you need to carry four big pax and their luggage. You won't get very far. But for private flying and joyrides, I don't think you can beat it. Unless you can afford an EC130, in which case go for it and enjoy, and can I have a go???
In warmer climates, the cockpit temperature is ridiculous. There is too much solar radiation coming in through that floor-level glass, and not enough fresh air to cool off. That stupid air vent just blows in your eyes and makes them sore, while your feet (in black shoes) and legs (in navy trousers) turn to stewed mush. Passengers lean away from any sunshine and towards any incoming air. Too bloody European.
The B206 foot-level vent is desperately needed in this machine. Opening the side window has little effect because the bird is so aerodynamically slick. Try flying for an hour with your left hand on the cyclic and your right hand out the window scooping air in.
The long reach for the door and the dificulty in closing it when the carpet jams the edge, make it a frustrating machine.
Otherwise, it was pretty good, although it should be called an EC110, because i could never get 120 kts out of it.
The B206 foot-level vent is desperately needed in this machine. Opening the side window has little effect because the bird is so aerodynamically slick. Try flying for an hour with your left hand on the cyclic and your right hand out the window scooping air in.
The long reach for the door and the dificulty in closing it when the carpet jams the edge, make it a frustrating machine.
Otherwise, it was pretty good, although it should be called an EC110, because i could never get 120 kts out of it.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Canada
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Turbomecc ALERT TELEx
Probably be an AD released I'm guessing
"TURBOMECA has been informed of an accident which occured on July, 13th 2005 in Nimbus Dam (California,
USA) on an EC 120B fitted with an Arrius 2F engine. The NTSB is currently conducting an investigation, in which
TURBOMECA is actively involved.
The first results from the investigation indicate:
- the rupture of free turbine blades, contained inside the engine
- gas generator damage
- deterioration of the constant delta pressure diaphragm.
The most likely explanation for this event would be the deterioration of the constant delta pressure diaphragm that
could have led to an increase of the fuel flow and of the gas generator speed. Even though the information that we
have in our possession at this point is not sufficient enough to establish a detailled sequence of events, it would
seem as though the increase in the fuel flow could have led to the engine damage.
As soon as the investigations and analyses allow us to validate the sequence of events leading to the engine
damage, TURBOMECA will contact you again to provide you with the appropriate recommendations.
"
"TURBOMECA has been informed of an accident which occured on July, 13th 2005 in Nimbus Dam (California,
USA) on an EC 120B fitted with an Arrius 2F engine. The NTSB is currently conducting an investigation, in which
TURBOMECA is actively involved.
The first results from the investigation indicate:
- the rupture of free turbine blades, contained inside the engine
- gas generator damage
- deterioration of the constant delta pressure diaphragm.
The most likely explanation for this event would be the deterioration of the constant delta pressure diaphragm that
could have led to an increase of the fuel flow and of the gas generator speed. Even though the information that we
have in our possession at this point is not sufficient enough to establish a detailled sequence of events, it would
seem as though the increase in the fuel flow could have led to the engine damage.
As soon as the investigations and analyses allow us to validate the sequence of events leading to the engine
damage, TURBOMECA will contact you again to provide you with the appropriate recommendations.
"
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: USA
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Battery Disconnect Switch
France will probably not be much help, might want to talk to the support people at American Eurocopter, they were our source of information for the switch, no STC but I think they had it done on a FAA Form 337.
EC120 running costs
Team
Would like to know from owners operators what one actually costs as I am thinking of replacing one of the 500's with one !
Have heard that FCU's and modules cost a fortune. What is unscheduled maintenance like ?
Thanks in advance
Would like to know from owners operators what one actually costs as I am thinking of replacing one of the 500's with one !
Have heard that FCU's and modules cost a fortune. What is unscheduled maintenance like ?
Thanks in advance
Join Date: Jun 2003
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Stay away from it.Unscheduled Maint all the time and a Alert Service Letter every other week.Pain in the arse checks between 100hr Checks.Cant pull the skin off a rice pudding!!!
Buy a Koala!!!
Buy a Koala!!!
Join Date: May 2005
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There is nothing wrong with a 120 if you fly at sea level. Excellent machine. Struggles at high altitude because it is a bit under powered.. Running costs are about $450.
Fly Safe
Fly Safe