Australia: Training, Licence Conversion, Job Prospects
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So what sort of experience is necessary for mustering? I know a bit about cattle (my Dad keeps a few), so I'd know which end is which , but what specifically are they looking for?
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Fee Help
Gday D-J,
Hope this reply isn't too late for you mate. I'm currently at Chopperline in Caloundra on my way to CPL-H and on Austudy. There's talk of the same benefit for fixed wing CPL students here soon too (if it isn't already happening). Was pretty easy to set-up and obviously a welcome helping hand on a fotnightly basis.
Hope this reply isn't too late for you mate. I'm currently at Chopperline in Caloundra on my way to CPL-H and on Austudy. There's talk of the same benefit for fixed wing CPL students here soon too (if it isn't already happening). Was pretty easy to set-up and obviously a welcome helping hand on a fotnightly basis.
hbj,
I have a bit of spare time & a fresh cup of coffee so I will try to answer most of your questions in one hit -
They are looking for someone who knows how the cattle will behave when confronted by a man on foot, horse, motorbike or helicopter. You need to anticipate what the mob will do & make them do what you want, & you need to do it without stressing the cattle more than you have to. You need to decide if you are going to push the mob or let them go where they want to & take them the long way to the yards. Do you push them out of the river & take them cross country or do you muster them into the river & follow it? You need to be able to decide how much time you should spend trying to get an old cow out from under a tree while the rest of the mob goes wild, after all how much is she worth to the owner? What if it is a bull under the tree, is it a scrub bull that needs to caught or a herd bull that can stay in the paddock? Do you leave a scrub bull if you can't get it or do you call in some ground help? If you have no ground help do you leave the bull & tell no-one or do you shoot it? If you don't have a gun do you think you could find that bull again later in the afternoon if you come back with a shooter? From where you last saw the bull which direction is he most likely to go once you leave him? You may be on your own or you may have 3 or more other helicopters with you, you may have any number of horsemen, motorbikes, bull catchers, trucks etc on the ground to assist, & they sometimes rely on you to guide them to where they are needed, & they need to be there before they are needed. They may have to travel over some pretty ugly country, so your anticipation of what the mob will do will allow you to get them in position in plenty of time. You need to plan ahead based on the terrain you need to cross. Not everyone on the ground will have a radio, but there is a pretty good chance they know what needs to be done & if you start doing something unexpected with the helicopter the whole day can turn to ****. If what the ground crew is doing isn't working or hindering, you need to change it & tell people where to go & what to do. The helicopter pilot has a birds eye view & you need to be working very closely with the head stockman on the ground. If he respects your knowledge & ability he will have his crew move the earth to help you & get done what you need. If he doesn't you may as well go home. You need to speak the language of the people on the ground, because if you tell them "there is a cow under the tree" it had bloody better be a cow, because if it's a pissed of bull they might want to know that beforehand. What sort of tree is it? There's a lot of trees in parts of Australia, & so they know where you are talking about you might want to know the difference between a gum tree & a Bauhinia tree.
Most cattle in Northern Australia have been mustered with helicopters for quite a while now, so they have built up a knowledge base on how to evade capture. If you haven't built up that same knowledge base so you can prevent them from evading capture then it isn't going to be a fair fight. You need to be confident in your decisions regarding the cattle, because you can spend all day & end up with 1500 arseholes looking at you from the mob & in the blink of an eye you have 3000 eyes looking you & they're running under your helicopter faster than you can count them. You can fly around like a wounded banshee trying to get them all back together again, but you need to know when to call it quits & go home. No doubt the cocky(pastoralist) will want to know why he has a bill for 10 hrs of helicopter time & no cattle in the yard, which is where the confidence in your decisions comes in. Cattle are not domestic pets, & sometimes even the best mustering pilots lose a mob for various reasons & regardless of who is to blame it is never a pleasant experience.
Different breeds of cattle behave in different ways. You need to know the difference between a hereford & a brahman, & you need to know how long to persevere with a beast if it is misbehaving. Some animals can be persuaded, but a pissed off brahman cow will pull your helicopter from the sky as she runs underneath you. You need to be able to tell from your helicopter how the cattle are handling the walk. If they are tongueing(imagine your tongue after running a marathon for an explanation of this term) after the first 5 miles of a 15 mile walk then you need to change the plan, as the current one isn't working.
I could go on for many more pages, but suffice to say that I haven't yet spoken about the flying skills needed for mustering. That alone should highlight the point that many other experienced mustering pilots on pprune have said ad-nauseum - Mustering pilots need to have experience on the ground so they can operate effectively in the air. If you want to do it, follow the advice of others & get a job on the ground. If you're good you'll get flying, if you're not you won't. If you meet a mustering helicopter operator over a campfire in the bush while you covered in dust & **** & ask for a job you have a lot more chance than if you walk in to the hangar with a clean shirt & flowery resume in your hand.
Time for another coffee.
I have a bit of spare time & a fresh cup of coffee so I will try to answer most of your questions in one hit -
They are looking for someone who knows how the cattle will behave when confronted by a man on foot, horse, motorbike or helicopter. You need to anticipate what the mob will do & make them do what you want, & you need to do it without stressing the cattle more than you have to. You need to decide if you are going to push the mob or let them go where they want to & take them the long way to the yards. Do you push them out of the river & take them cross country or do you muster them into the river & follow it? You need to be able to decide how much time you should spend trying to get an old cow out from under a tree while the rest of the mob goes wild, after all how much is she worth to the owner? What if it is a bull under the tree, is it a scrub bull that needs to caught or a herd bull that can stay in the paddock? Do you leave a scrub bull if you can't get it or do you call in some ground help? If you have no ground help do you leave the bull & tell no-one or do you shoot it? If you don't have a gun do you think you could find that bull again later in the afternoon if you come back with a shooter? From where you last saw the bull which direction is he most likely to go once you leave him? You may be on your own or you may have 3 or more other helicopters with you, you may have any number of horsemen, motorbikes, bull catchers, trucks etc on the ground to assist, & they sometimes rely on you to guide them to where they are needed, & they need to be there before they are needed. They may have to travel over some pretty ugly country, so your anticipation of what the mob will do will allow you to get them in position in plenty of time. You need to plan ahead based on the terrain you need to cross. Not everyone on the ground will have a radio, but there is a pretty good chance they know what needs to be done & if you start doing something unexpected with the helicopter the whole day can turn to ****. If what the ground crew is doing isn't working or hindering, you need to change it & tell people where to go & what to do. The helicopter pilot has a birds eye view & you need to be working very closely with the head stockman on the ground. If he respects your knowledge & ability he will have his crew move the earth to help you & get done what you need. If he doesn't you may as well go home. You need to speak the language of the people on the ground, because if you tell them "there is a cow under the tree" it had bloody better be a cow, because if it's a pissed of bull they might want to know that beforehand. What sort of tree is it? There's a lot of trees in parts of Australia, & so they know where you are talking about you might want to know the difference between a gum tree & a Bauhinia tree.
Most cattle in Northern Australia have been mustered with helicopters for quite a while now, so they have built up a knowledge base on how to evade capture. If you haven't built up that same knowledge base so you can prevent them from evading capture then it isn't going to be a fair fight. You need to be confident in your decisions regarding the cattle, because you can spend all day & end up with 1500 arseholes looking at you from the mob & in the blink of an eye you have 3000 eyes looking you & they're running under your helicopter faster than you can count them. You can fly around like a wounded banshee trying to get them all back together again, but you need to know when to call it quits & go home. No doubt the cocky(pastoralist) will want to know why he has a bill for 10 hrs of helicopter time & no cattle in the yard, which is where the confidence in your decisions comes in. Cattle are not domestic pets, & sometimes even the best mustering pilots lose a mob for various reasons & regardless of who is to blame it is never a pleasant experience.
Different breeds of cattle behave in different ways. You need to know the difference between a hereford & a brahman, & you need to know how long to persevere with a beast if it is misbehaving. Some animals can be persuaded, but a pissed off brahman cow will pull your helicopter from the sky as she runs underneath you. You need to be able to tell from your helicopter how the cattle are handling the walk. If they are tongueing(imagine your tongue after running a marathon for an explanation of this term) after the first 5 miles of a 15 mile walk then you need to change the plan, as the current one isn't working.
I could go on for many more pages, but suffice to say that I haven't yet spoken about the flying skills needed for mustering. That alone should highlight the point that many other experienced mustering pilots on pprune have said ad-nauseum - Mustering pilots need to have experience on the ground so they can operate effectively in the air. If you want to do it, follow the advice of others & get a job on the ground. If you're good you'll get flying, if you're not you won't. If you meet a mustering helicopter operator over a campfire in the bush while you covered in dust & **** & ask for a job you have a lot more chance than if you walk in to the hangar with a clean shirt & flowery resume in your hand.
Time for another coffee.
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Great post there Heliduck, thanks! Man, there's a lot more to it than I would have thought.....over here it's simply a case of rattling the bucket of ration, and the cows lazily mooch over to the trough!
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US Pilot Flying in Australia
Recently a friend of mine and I were discussing the possibility of flying for a living in Australia. I have always wanted to fly in Australia and am going to research the possibilities of doing so but thought I would appeal to the knowledge of the PPrune gang to point me in the right direction to see whether it would even be worth it.
I have been flying in the states for about 5 year now, first as an instructor and as of the last 3 years as a tour pilot. Am am looking to get into more of the utility side of helicopters and I think might have enough time to be eligible for some sort of job in Australia. I have heard that the market down there is a little better then in the US for gaining employment. I have talked to a couple people and some say that it would take me going down there, getting a license and traveling to a all the companies that I could to explore the employment opportunities and even then there is no guarantee. I know that as as American I would have to get an AU license and receive sponsorship for a work visa from a company before I could be legally able to work in AU. I am just curious, for those of you that work down in the Australian market, if it would be worth pursuing this.
I am interested in what the salaries are and whether the utility field is a viable market to break into down there and if not what different kinds of helicopter services they even have in Australia (EMS, ENG, Utility, Oil, SAR etc.) the might be looking for pilots.
Thanks for any info
MD
I have been flying in the states for about 5 year now, first as an instructor and as of the last 3 years as a tour pilot. Am am looking to get into more of the utility side of helicopters and I think might have enough time to be eligible for some sort of job in Australia. I have heard that the market down there is a little better then in the US for gaining employment. I have talked to a couple people and some say that it would take me going down there, getting a license and traveling to a all the companies that I could to explore the employment opportunities and even then there is no guarantee. I know that as as American I would have to get an AU license and receive sponsorship for a work visa from a company before I could be legally able to work in AU. I am just curious, for those of you that work down in the Australian market, if it would be worth pursuing this.
I am interested in what the salaries are and whether the utility field is a viable market to break into down there and if not what different kinds of helicopter services they even have in Australia (EMS, ENG, Utility, Oil, SAR etc.) the might be looking for pilots.
Thanks for any info
MD
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I have just tried to convert my Aussie (CASA) CPL and m/e instrument rating, to an FAA licen(s)e.
The FAA inspector said Australia has an ICAO system - we can only give you a PPL! WTF!!! If, I want an FAA CPL or Instrument Rating I have to do it all over again.
The FAA inspector said Australia has an ICAO system - we can only give you a PPL! WTF!!! If, I want an FAA CPL or Instrument Rating I have to do it all over again.
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The FAA doesn't do a conversion on CPL licenses. If you meet the requirements for a FAA CPL(H) (150 hrs. min), you have to do three hours of training with a FAA CFI and he will endorse you for the checkride. You will have to take the written exam as well. The CASA CPL(H) requirements are a 105 hours for the CPL as I believe (not sure 100 or 105) that's the ICAO minimum and the FAA minima are thus higher.
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And don't forget the US security clearance must be done and approved before u enter the USA for any commercial aviation training; they will then forward the approval to the flight school for ur training; quite expensive and takes about 3 weeks to get done
WLM
WLM
WLM,
Have you done this security thing?
What is involved?
Any info would be great, I am planning a holiday over there and would like to get my FAA licence whilst I am there. It might come in handy one day but I really only want to flog around and see something other than outback Australia!
Have you done this security thing?
What is involved?
Any info would be great, I am planning a holiday over there and would like to get my FAA licence whilst I am there. It might come in handy one day but I really only want to flog around and see something other than outback Australia!
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Yes I did Matey; here is the link for ur perusal, Can't remember the exact cost as it was back in 2005 lol
https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/student_help.htm
or u can ring them [email protected] or call (703) 542-1222.
and the visa requirement:
You have submitted one portion of your notification of flight training. Based on the information you have submitted, TSA is granting you "Preliminary Approval". THIS DOES NOT GRANT YOU PERMISSION TO RECEIVE TRAINING. If you need a visa to enter the U.S., the issuing authority may use this "Preliminary Approval" in determining whether to issue the appropriate visa to you.
Before you begin training, you must wait for a "Permission to Initiate Training" confirmation notice from the AFSP. Once you and your Flight Training Provider have received a "Permission to Initiate Training" confirmation notice from the AFSP, you may begin training.
Cheers
WLM
https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/student_help.htm
or u can ring them [email protected] or call (703) 542-1222.
and the visa requirement:
You have submitted one portion of your notification of flight training. Based on the information you have submitted, TSA is granting you "Preliminary Approval". THIS DOES NOT GRANT YOU PERMISSION TO RECEIVE TRAINING. If you need a visa to enter the U.S., the issuing authority may use this "Preliminary Approval" in determining whether to issue the appropriate visa to you.
Before you begin training, you must wait for a "Permission to Initiate Training" confirmation notice from the AFSP. Once you and your Flight Training Provider have received a "Permission to Initiate Training" confirmation notice from the AFSP, you may begin training.
Cheers
WLM
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CRICOS registered sydney/melbourne
Hello all,
just after a bit of up to date infomation.
can anyone recommend good training schools in Sydnney and Melbourne to complete a CPL(H) that are CRICOS registered.
Would be good to now of any that are worth steering clear.
Many thanks
just after a bit of up to date infomation.
can anyone recommend good training schools in Sydnney and Melbourne to complete a CPL(H) that are CRICOS registered.
Would be good to now of any that are worth steering clear.
Many thanks
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Converting FAA to CASA Australia
I am considering a move to Australia (I have residency there), and I am trying to figure out what will be involved with converting my FAA Commercial & Instrument ratings over to CASA.
Would there be any benefit to me to obtain my FAA ATP prior to a move to Australia- would the process be any more streamlined? I'm trying to keep it simple, and not waste money or time over there...
The CASA website isn't very clear on the process (it has not been simplified as it is in the FAA regs)
Any help is appreciated. Thank you.
Would there be any benefit to me to obtain my FAA ATP prior to a move to Australia- would the process be any more streamlined? I'm trying to keep it simple, and not waste money or time over there...
The CASA website isn't very clear on the process (it has not been simplified as it is in the FAA regs)
Any help is appreciated. Thank you.
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If you do the ATP before going to Aus you will only have to do the CPL airlaw and the ATP airlaw with no flight test. Although your IR is a defferent ball game. You will have to do the Irex and a flight test in a IFR machine. Most people just do the Irex and wait until their employed and usually the employer will do the flight test.
If you are going the other way from CASA to FAA. If you have a CPL and a CASA IR then forget the CPL conversion, go straight for the FAA ATP. You will have to do the same thing for either. An ATP theory exam and a flight test. You do not need a instructor endorcement to sit the ATP flight test. Although a few hours with an instructor would be very wise.
DT
If you are going the other way from CASA to FAA. If you have a CPL and a CASA IR then forget the CPL conversion, go straight for the FAA ATP. You will have to do the same thing for either. An ATP theory exam and a flight test. You do not need a instructor endorcement to sit the ATP flight test. Although a few hours with an instructor would be very wise.
DT
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Changes to faa cpl(h) conversion:
CHANGES TO FAA CPL(H) CONVERSION:
CASA is now drafting changes to the FAA CPL(H) conversion to the Australian CPL(H) Licence.
Coming shortly, the requirements are to change whereby the FAA convertee will require 300 hours on the FAA CPL(H) Licence before it can be converted to the Australian equivalent.
It has been recognised that the present arragements are not sufficiently meeting the theoretical requirements as set by the present Day VFR Syllabus and this recommended change will
go a long way to alleviating this deficiency and making this short-cut less attractive to people.
The change will also go a long way to securing the future and continued viability of the Australian Helicopter Training Industry.
10/10 for CASA's action in this matter and the support of AHAG in addressing this questionable loophole!
CASA is now drafting changes to the FAA CPL(H) conversion to the Australian CPL(H) Licence.
Coming shortly, the requirements are to change whereby the FAA convertee will require 300 hours on the FAA CPL(H) Licence before it can be converted to the Australian equivalent.
It has been recognised that the present arragements are not sufficiently meeting the theoretical requirements as set by the present Day VFR Syllabus and this recommended change will
go a long way to alleviating this deficiency and making this short-cut less attractive to people.
The change will also go a long way to securing the future and continued viability of the Australian Helicopter Training Industry.
10/10 for CASA's action in this matter and the support of AHAG in addressing this questionable loophole!
They can also give you an FAA CPL + IR, as long as you do the flight test with an ATO, pass the written and have the required flight experience. To convert my Australian ATPL to FAA ATP, all I had to do was a multi-choice exam, oral exam, and flight test. All very straight forward. One thing to be aware of with the FAA ATP you need 100 hours night experience, whereas with the Australian ATPL you don't. So don't expect to convert an Australian ATPL to FAA unless you have the required night experience.
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Which school for best opportunity at employment
Hi
New to this forum. I am asking probably an age old question. Which school in Australia wouldpossible opportunity at gaining work after training. I know there are a lot of factors involved what ifs.
Thanks in advance.
Rastis
New to this forum. I am asking probably an age old question. Which school in Australia wouldpossible opportunity at gaining work after training. I know there are a lot of factors involved what ifs.
Thanks in advance.
Rastis