Australia: Training, Licence Conversion, Job Prospects
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The mustering guys are getting jobs in Canada because they have the right attitude for the Country. Kiwi's same goes. They want to work, Canadian employers want them. I've yet to hear a different story from Oz and Kiwi pilots who go to Ca even with minimal hours.
PA
PA
For Czech: Work permit, Working visa, and licence validation. All in that order, plus a mountain of paperwork and running around. It is a longggg process.
PA, different story to what I was told by a Kiwi who flew there last season. I guess the Canadians on here will tell us the details.
PA, different story to what I was told by a Kiwi who flew there last season. I guess the Canadians on here will tell us the details.
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G’Day Ocker, yes there is ample evidences that the largest percentage of the EMS are as sharp a mob of drivers you’ll ever get, as well as many of the EMS outfits being likewise. Unfortunately possum you brought your own argument undone with the gem,
“What is a potentially risky region of the industry.”
Why is it risky and not merely routine ops? We hear about the pressure of the golden hour, probably no more than an excuse to throw caution and intelligence out the window with baby, bathwater, regs and all. Could you tell us why, with such a low number of machines in the overall fleet, there has ever even been an accident? Please don’t blame ground borne taskers who haven’t the WX training that pilots have to judge such matters. How can EMS ditch your “potentially risky” attitude or are you a loner?
Hi OOGLE, too late mate, been here done that, life’s too short for vitriol, contemplate instead while you dwell over a glass of red, or are you still on lemonade, the philosophy that fulfilment is much more likely from a position of cautious optimism than one of radical pessimism,
CC, they reckon up to ten times the drivers more than machines, I think they are counting all of the OZ pros who are working around the world as well and indeed pro pilots skills are a world currency are they not, the fires season proves that, so supply at the top end should never be a problem as long as the willy is there.
P68, very good point and overlooked, and with no ideas, kids just find other jobs with better cash much more attractive, everything is about lifestyle nowadays at that age!
KP, I should have qualified the cops and robbers a bit more, and the banter in Melbourne is just that, good for a laugh, but all of the state Govt’s have been out of cash, Victoria for the first time for a long while turned 330 million surplus to budget, South oz has only just started looking at black figures after a very long while, WA is stressed, NT, Tas and Qld are all nearly broke and NSW just gets going and along comes the fires and soaks up all the loot for good solid police and EMS work in one big fireball. So I think it’s a matter of lobby as much as possible and keep the reputation of effectualness by getting the frivolous work off the sheets.
Big Mike, that’s right, but hard to believe and onto a 206 or B2 with an endorsement thrown in. seems 1500 is the magic number for insurance and as PA says, attitude is attractive. If you’re younger <30 and someone will pay you 10 to 12g more and you don’t have to live in a swag all year looking at cows backsides, there you go.
Another sector I should have mentioned is the Ag. guys who are also slowly on the way up. Story goes these blokes picked themselves up from under the grinding heel of the insurance companies, joined up with the F/W Ag. mob and became an effective very professional outfit known as AAAA. Old style honest lobbying has got them a rapport with CASA probably unique amongst our fraternity in any country. Their on board gear and chemical science is becoming mind blowing. They have come a long way from not so long ago when one Ag R/W outfit started the year with seven machines and pranged twelve in twelve months, three on badly set up autos, thus vindicating one of Nick Lappos’ points recently on another thread.
TET
“What is a potentially risky region of the industry.”
Why is it risky and not merely routine ops? We hear about the pressure of the golden hour, probably no more than an excuse to throw caution and intelligence out the window with baby, bathwater, regs and all. Could you tell us why, with such a low number of machines in the overall fleet, there has ever even been an accident? Please don’t blame ground borne taskers who haven’t the WX training that pilots have to judge such matters. How can EMS ditch your “potentially risky” attitude or are you a loner?
Hi OOGLE, too late mate, been here done that, life’s too short for vitriol, contemplate instead while you dwell over a glass of red, or are you still on lemonade, the philosophy that fulfilment is much more likely from a position of cautious optimism than one of radical pessimism,
CC, they reckon up to ten times the drivers more than machines, I think they are counting all of the OZ pros who are working around the world as well and indeed pro pilots skills are a world currency are they not, the fires season proves that, so supply at the top end should never be a problem as long as the willy is there.
P68, very good point and overlooked, and with no ideas, kids just find other jobs with better cash much more attractive, everything is about lifestyle nowadays at that age!
KP, I should have qualified the cops and robbers a bit more, and the banter in Melbourne is just that, good for a laugh, but all of the state Govt’s have been out of cash, Victoria for the first time for a long while turned 330 million surplus to budget, South oz has only just started looking at black figures after a very long while, WA is stressed, NT, Tas and Qld are all nearly broke and NSW just gets going and along comes the fires and soaks up all the loot for good solid police and EMS work in one big fireball. So I think it’s a matter of lobby as much as possible and keep the reputation of effectualness by getting the frivolous work off the sheets.
Big Mike, that’s right, but hard to believe and onto a 206 or B2 with an endorsement thrown in. seems 1500 is the magic number for insurance and as PA says, attitude is attractive. If you’re younger <30 and someone will pay you 10 to 12g more and you don’t have to live in a swag all year looking at cows backsides, there you go.
Another sector I should have mentioned is the Ag. guys who are also slowly on the way up. Story goes these blokes picked themselves up from under the grinding heel of the insurance companies, joined up with the F/W Ag. mob and became an effective very professional outfit known as AAAA. Old style honest lobbying has got them a rapport with CASA probably unique amongst our fraternity in any country. Their on board gear and chemical science is becoming mind blowing. They have come a long way from not so long ago when one Ag R/W outfit started the year with seven machines and pranged twelve in twelve months, three on badly set up autos, thus vindicating one of Nick Lappos’ points recently on another thread.
TET
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Mate, I dont think you have the "potential" to learn or relax your anti-EMS vitriol, but for the benefit of others reading this forum, in my orginal reply I used the words "potentially risky" deliberately.
Those of us who are professionals in this industry accept the challenge of making the potentially risky into benign by a combination of training, equipment, knowledge, use of crew resources (from aircrew, medical crew, engineering spt to tasking agencies and head office support staff). A part of this is the ability and backing to say no when the numbers dont add up. Herin there is no need to blame your "ground borne(?)" taskers, because the descision to fly rests with the captain (in what part of the industry does this rule not apply? Yours?).
Unfortunately, as you say, accidents do and have happened. And in a small fleet too (although I cant think of any operators in EMS that could start a year with 7 machines, and end the year having pranged 12!!). No matter how safe a system is, it is a statistical reality that aircraft, if they are flown, will crash a percentage of the time.
I'm sure I'm not alone in taking offence at you smering the professionalism of EMS operators, and more importantly those of friends and collegues who have been caught and killed on the sharp end of this reality for whatever reason. "probably no more than an excuse to throw caution and intelligence out the window with baby, bathwater, regs and all". Not going to grace that sweeping accusation with any more comment. Fool.
Finally, assuming that you could make the definition between "potential risk" and "realised risk", which of the following would you say carry no POTENTIAL risk (and have never suffered any form of accident)?
mustering, spraying, tourism ops, fire bombing, police ops, military ops, EMS, filming, offshore oil support, training or private flight ops?
This is a profession, as the name of this forum suggests. We provide a paying, aviation unqualified public with any a multitude of services that are in essence potentially risky.The reason that its a profession is that those involved, from Aircrew to hangar rats, accept the responsability of managing this risk on behalf of those who place their trust, and lives, in our hands.
Rant over. TET I dont plan to answer whatever further rubish you plan to dump on the industry. Come to think of it, you're probably just an outsider fishing for jollies with inflamatory comments. Hope you enjoyed it.
Those of us who are professionals in this industry accept the challenge of making the potentially risky into benign by a combination of training, equipment, knowledge, use of crew resources (from aircrew, medical crew, engineering spt to tasking agencies and head office support staff). A part of this is the ability and backing to say no when the numbers dont add up. Herin there is no need to blame your "ground borne(?)" taskers, because the descision to fly rests with the captain (in what part of the industry does this rule not apply? Yours?).
Unfortunately, as you say, accidents do and have happened. And in a small fleet too (although I cant think of any operators in EMS that could start a year with 7 machines, and end the year having pranged 12!!). No matter how safe a system is, it is a statistical reality that aircraft, if they are flown, will crash a percentage of the time.
I'm sure I'm not alone in taking offence at you smering the professionalism of EMS operators, and more importantly those of friends and collegues who have been caught and killed on the sharp end of this reality for whatever reason. "probably no more than an excuse to throw caution and intelligence out the window with baby, bathwater, regs and all". Not going to grace that sweeping accusation with any more comment. Fool.
Finally, assuming that you could make the definition between "potential risk" and "realised risk", which of the following would you say carry no POTENTIAL risk (and have never suffered any form of accident)?
mustering, spraying, tourism ops, fire bombing, police ops, military ops, EMS, filming, offshore oil support, training or private flight ops?
This is a profession, as the name of this forum suggests. We provide a paying, aviation unqualified public with any a multitude of services that are in essence potentially risky.The reason that its a profession is that those involved, from Aircrew to hangar rats, accept the responsability of managing this risk on behalf of those who place their trust, and lives, in our hands.
Rant over. TET I dont plan to answer whatever further rubish you plan to dump on the industry. Come to think of it, you're probably just an outsider fishing for jollies with inflamatory comments. Hope you enjoyed it.
Last edited by w_ocker; 19th Mar 2006 at 01:49.
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G'day all,
I think we all need to take a deep breath and settle down a bit...
As is often the case in these forums, people (supposedly professional people) take some pretty cheap shots at each other causing much offence. I'm not sure whether this is as a result of deliberately trying to incite ill feeling or if people simply don't read their posts before firing them off to ensure there is little room for mis-interpretation. Perhaps I'm out of step here but I would prefer not to say something using this medium that I wouldn't say to someone face to face. It's not just professionalism, it's good manners.
With regard to the particular issue at hand, I am in complete agreement with w_ocker with his choice of words and the intent of what he was trying to convey. That is, that EMS does have potentially higher risk than perhaps other sectors of the industry eg. offshore.
I'm not an EMS pilot but I understand EMS operators often work at night, often in marginal (but legal!) weather, single pilot IFR. Compare this with the average offshore pilot who operates mostly by day in the north where the weather is usually CAVOK (cyclone wx not withstanding) with a fellow pilot to keep him/her honest. In addition to this, EMS operators tend to have greater variety in their work where the offshore guys get pretty good at doing much the same thing from day to day.
It would therefore be difficult not to come to the conclusion that the risks involved are POTENTIALLY greater for the EMS operators. It has absolutely nothing to do with professionalism etc but the environment in which they're operating. To suggest that EMS operators are somehow less professional suggests a complete lack of appreciation of what is involved. I can understand joe public coming up with sort of slander but fellow operators ought to know better.
Cheers,
P68
I think we all need to take a deep breath and settle down a bit...
As is often the case in these forums, people (supposedly professional people) take some pretty cheap shots at each other causing much offence. I'm not sure whether this is as a result of deliberately trying to incite ill feeling or if people simply don't read their posts before firing them off to ensure there is little room for mis-interpretation. Perhaps I'm out of step here but I would prefer not to say something using this medium that I wouldn't say to someone face to face. It's not just professionalism, it's good manners.
With regard to the particular issue at hand, I am in complete agreement with w_ocker with his choice of words and the intent of what he was trying to convey. That is, that EMS does have potentially higher risk than perhaps other sectors of the industry eg. offshore.
I'm not an EMS pilot but I understand EMS operators often work at night, often in marginal (but legal!) weather, single pilot IFR. Compare this with the average offshore pilot who operates mostly by day in the north where the weather is usually CAVOK (cyclone wx not withstanding) with a fellow pilot to keep him/her honest. In addition to this, EMS operators tend to have greater variety in their work where the offshore guys get pretty good at doing much the same thing from day to day.
It would therefore be difficult not to come to the conclusion that the risks involved are POTENTIALLY greater for the EMS operators. It has absolutely nothing to do with professionalism etc but the environment in which they're operating. To suggest that EMS operators are somehow less professional suggests a complete lack of appreciation of what is involved. I can understand joe public coming up with sort of slander but fellow operators ought to know better.
Cheers,
P68
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ocker
Hi again ocker,
Steady on with the horses’ old son the leads a’bolting on you.
I ain’t a’smearing as to wit; “yes there is ample evidences that the largest percentage of the EMS are as sharp a mob of drivers you’ll ever get,”
I am happy to attempt a prioritisation of the different disciplines, mostly the records speak for themselves, but explanations are harder. E.G. why has fire-work enjoyed such a brilliant track record under very arduous conditions when plague locust detection has been less than rosy and always operates in good vis.
I read in a crash comic years ago that one locust dude decided that crashing one at a time was not good enough and totalled two together. The story did not relate the temper of the owners.
Recently the Plague Locust Commission has instigated much better procedures. “ABC News story”
Mustering, spraying, military and filming appear rightly lumped together accident rate wise.
Mustering which takes on junior drivers has changed much to the better since the easier to fly R22’s took over. I hear that 75% or so of the R22 SB’s world wide are of OZ origin and 75% of them from North Qld. Well less than half the OZ R22’s reside in NQ. Does that say something?
One only out of four OZ R22 blade failures was proven to be within TBR hours, see latest crash comic. Had the other three not overrun TBR’s there would have been a lot less pain, why did the system let those three over run?
When fail safe wire detection comes in then spraying will take a quantum leap to the safer side.
The military have had some accidents for sure, wire strikes, low level handling, usually during training of the low time pilots that they take on.
Filming!!; I’m told that as long as everyone knows that the one single serviceable component that causes more crashes than any other is a “CAMERA” and heeds it, then safety will increase there.
Tourism takes on juniors too but is a much less demanding profile, so no excuses there.
Offshore / Onshore min-ex should be on top of the pile as far as safety, the next being the Police. Both areas have the higher time drivers and better disciplined tasks.
Police and EMS suffer in many areas from funding problems, as I have said, but energex in Qld who levy all power users in the area of their local EMS have a stable funding base now.
EMS is tarnished needlessly only by a very small minority, as I have also said, E.G. heading off shore to refuel on a reef with a known defect radalt and its all dark outside, sorry ocker; what procedures allowed this?
Training bends more than it should, mostly from errors in autos, but has improved a bit now that instructors who are usually auto-current do the exam tests where before FOI’s were unnecessarily exposed with their lack of currency.
Private flying is always going to be a bit volatile due to independence away from supervision. Once again R22’s and R44’s are easy to fly; the safety courses have good impact here.
On the positive side the military and mustering have injected a strong cadre of highly skilled pilots into the other disciplines, so too has the fire job improved pilot skills.
Victoria is embarking on a major fire prevention program, (ABC news again) if NSW follows suit then Heli-bombing will dry up, which will loosen more funds for EMS and Police work. (Professional lobbyists required there)
I probably am an outsider, there you go, a Pitt St. farmer once told me that he knows all about farming from watching Landline. Me I’ve read nearly all of the crash comics. I watch others in these threads, baiting, biting, but I didn’t expect to catch a groper on the first cast.
Maybe you will have been invigorated to think of more real improvements other than the generalisations above, good luck on that if you do. I guess flying is like truck driving-- ranting to excess only wastes resources.
TET
P.S. Consider changing your pen name sunshine? All other ockers that I know live on the high side of the tracks and, shovel cement!
Thanks P68, point taken and esp. yes the cyclone for interest of rotorheads abroad with loved ones in North Qld, it looks like a fairly wild one at force 4 -5 to be crossing the coast at Innisfail in a few hours. Follow the link. http://www.bom.gov.au/weather/qld/ and if you follow the charts link to 'latest mean sea level map' you will see another one at 990mbs right up larry's ginger. Good wet season's, like back in the 70's.
I guess everyone up there will be greasing the wheels, lots of flood relief, etc, etc. Oh and probably some EMS work !!!!
Steady on with the horses’ old son the leads a’bolting on you.
I ain’t a’smearing as to wit; “yes there is ample evidences that the largest percentage of the EMS are as sharp a mob of drivers you’ll ever get,”
I am happy to attempt a prioritisation of the different disciplines, mostly the records speak for themselves, but explanations are harder. E.G. why has fire-work enjoyed such a brilliant track record under very arduous conditions when plague locust detection has been less than rosy and always operates in good vis.
I read in a crash comic years ago that one locust dude decided that crashing one at a time was not good enough and totalled two together. The story did not relate the temper of the owners.
Recently the Plague Locust Commission has instigated much better procedures. “ABC News story”
Mustering, spraying, military and filming appear rightly lumped together accident rate wise.
Mustering which takes on junior drivers has changed much to the better since the easier to fly R22’s took over. I hear that 75% or so of the R22 SB’s world wide are of OZ origin and 75% of them from North Qld. Well less than half the OZ R22’s reside in NQ. Does that say something?
One only out of four OZ R22 blade failures was proven to be within TBR hours, see latest crash comic. Had the other three not overrun TBR’s there would have been a lot less pain, why did the system let those three over run?
When fail safe wire detection comes in then spraying will take a quantum leap to the safer side.
The military have had some accidents for sure, wire strikes, low level handling, usually during training of the low time pilots that they take on.
Filming!!; I’m told that as long as everyone knows that the one single serviceable component that causes more crashes than any other is a “CAMERA” and heeds it, then safety will increase there.
Tourism takes on juniors too but is a much less demanding profile, so no excuses there.
Offshore / Onshore min-ex should be on top of the pile as far as safety, the next being the Police. Both areas have the higher time drivers and better disciplined tasks.
Police and EMS suffer in many areas from funding problems, as I have said, but energex in Qld who levy all power users in the area of their local EMS have a stable funding base now.
EMS is tarnished needlessly only by a very small minority, as I have also said, E.G. heading off shore to refuel on a reef with a known defect radalt and its all dark outside, sorry ocker; what procedures allowed this?
Training bends more than it should, mostly from errors in autos, but has improved a bit now that instructors who are usually auto-current do the exam tests where before FOI’s were unnecessarily exposed with their lack of currency.
Private flying is always going to be a bit volatile due to independence away from supervision. Once again R22’s and R44’s are easy to fly; the safety courses have good impact here.
On the positive side the military and mustering have injected a strong cadre of highly skilled pilots into the other disciplines, so too has the fire job improved pilot skills.
Victoria is embarking on a major fire prevention program, (ABC news again) if NSW follows suit then Heli-bombing will dry up, which will loosen more funds for EMS and Police work. (Professional lobbyists required there)
I probably am an outsider, there you go, a Pitt St. farmer once told me that he knows all about farming from watching Landline. Me I’ve read nearly all of the crash comics. I watch others in these threads, baiting, biting, but I didn’t expect to catch a groper on the first cast.
Maybe you will have been invigorated to think of more real improvements other than the generalisations above, good luck on that if you do. I guess flying is like truck driving-- ranting to excess only wastes resources.
TET
P.S. Consider changing your pen name sunshine? All other ockers that I know live on the high side of the tracks and, shovel cement!
Thanks P68, point taken and esp. yes the cyclone for interest of rotorheads abroad with loved ones in North Qld, it looks like a fairly wild one at force 4 -5 to be crossing the coast at Innisfail in a few hours. Follow the link. http://www.bom.gov.au/weather/qld/ and if you follow the charts link to 'latest mean sea level map' you will see another one at 990mbs right up larry's ginger. Good wet season's, like back in the 70's.
I guess everyone up there will be greasing the wheels, lots of flood relief, etc, etc. Oh and probably some EMS work !!!!
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Topend
You have just described the failings of the helicopter population in Australia. I think the whole idea of of the thread is to bring out the positives of the Aus industry.
Why do you call yourself "an outsider" when you are the Chief Pilot of an organisation?? Take some pride old mate and give us the good points.
BTW - fix the spelling of your profile to say Chief pilot - Sorry, just being picky!!
You have just described the failings of the helicopter population in Australia. I think the whole idea of of the thread is to bring out the positives of the Aus industry.
Why do you call yourself "an outsider" when you are the Chief Pilot of an organisation?? Take some pride old mate and give us the good points.
BTW - fix the spelling of your profile to say Chief pilot - Sorry, just being picky!!
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Jobs
I have read this article so many times over the last 18months or more and various non flying friends have commented that it must be good news for a low hour pilot... but has anything really changed?
Who has yet to see any real change in the amount of jobs for new pilots or the type and locations change?
Will this "shortage" mean that the way low hour pilots get a start, change?
Who has yet to see any real change in the amount of jobs for new pilots or the type and locations change?
Will this "shortage" mean that the way low hour pilots get a start, change?
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Hi Topend,
Not quite right, Energex have a box on their electricity bills that allow a customer to tick, if they choose to, for a two dollar donation.
The area includes Northern NSW that does not get their services.
Energex do not fund this service to anywhere near what the service uses up.
The Queensland taxpayers are by far the biggest donors.
Energex just about only pay for the advertising that appears on the helicopters. They fly them up and down the beaches below 200' as an advertising banner.
Energex in Qld who levy all power users in the area of their local EMS have a stable funding base now.
The area includes Northern NSW that does not get their services.
Energex do not fund this service to anywhere near what the service uses up.
The Queensland taxpayers are by far the biggest donors.
Energex just about only pay for the advertising that appears on the helicopters. They fly them up and down the beaches below 200' as an advertising banner.
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Texdoc,
Mate, I appreciate the frustration that you (presumably as a low hour pilot) may be experiencing in finding you're way up the ladder.
The article in question does indeed paint a bright future for helicopter pilots and you're wondering "what does it mean for me?" The ABC news ran a story on Jan 31 stating the same sort of thing citing a shortage of pilots and engineers as the main "handbrake" in the expansion of the helicopter industry. The GM of Bristow's Australia was interviewed and said as much and although it dealt particularly with the offshore side of things, I'm sure my colleagues would agree that the industry as a whole should experience good growth and therefore the prospects for suitably qualified and experienced personnel should improve as a result.
For those just starting out, please understand you must have the appropriate QUALIFICATIONS and EXPERIENCE to fullfil the positions in question. There is no shortcut around this that I am aware of.
Just because a shortage of appropriately skilled personnel may be on the cards doesn't mean operators are just going to lower the entry requirements to put bums on seats. However, it does mean that opportunities exist for those who put themselves in an employable position because they'll be movement in the industry as a whole. The trick is to put yourself in the position where you have all the necessary boxes ticked and therefore be eligible for those positions when they inevitably become available.
Good luck,
Papa68
Mate, I appreciate the frustration that you (presumably as a low hour pilot) may be experiencing in finding you're way up the ladder.
The article in question does indeed paint a bright future for helicopter pilots and you're wondering "what does it mean for me?" The ABC news ran a story on Jan 31 stating the same sort of thing citing a shortage of pilots and engineers as the main "handbrake" in the expansion of the helicopter industry. The GM of Bristow's Australia was interviewed and said as much and although it dealt particularly with the offshore side of things, I'm sure my colleagues would agree that the industry as a whole should experience good growth and therefore the prospects for suitably qualified and experienced personnel should improve as a result.
For those just starting out, please understand you must have the appropriate QUALIFICATIONS and EXPERIENCE to fullfil the positions in question. There is no shortcut around this that I am aware of.
Just because a shortage of appropriately skilled personnel may be on the cards doesn't mean operators are just going to lower the entry requirements to put bums on seats. However, it does mean that opportunities exist for those who put themselves in an employable position because they'll be movement in the industry as a whole. The trick is to put yourself in the position where you have all the necessary boxes ticked and therefore be eligible for those positions when they inevitably become available.
Good luck,
Papa68
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A couple comments from yet another low timer (in the US):
1. I forwarded a thread on the PPRUNE helo forum to my most recent CFI, with whom I trained for my CPL (finished last month) - he is not a regular in any of the on-line helo forums. His first reaction was how vicious some of the posts are here. I guess I've become a bit used to/immune to the occasional vitriolic comments but he has a point. I have read the lead-up to the "you're a moron for slamming the EMS industry" a couple times and I don't see the insult on someone's livlihood or manhood or whatever honked that guy off.
2. (This is obvious but I'll mention it anyway.) The industry seems to be in a chicken-and-egg problem. All of the hirers want high timers, who are becoming fewer and fewer every day (esp. in the US) with the military-trained guys from the 60s/70s retiring, and with fewer hours being flown by guys that *are* in the military due to flight hour costs (e.g. AH-64 vs. UH-1). Something has to give, and I think it's silly to expect the low timers to pay >$US300,000 to become "seasoned". I also think the insurance companies are going to have to lower their limits at least a bit, or there won't be enough "warm bodies" to fly the more difficult jobs in a few years.
Note that I am not a career pilot - I am too old and too gainfully employed
and thus fly for fun (though I cannot deny my dream of not having to *pay* to fly someday). That must be why I sign off with my real name - will I regret this some day?
I would encourage forum participants to not do what is so easy on the internet - hide behind their keyboards.
regards to all,
Dave Blevins
1. I forwarded a thread on the PPRUNE helo forum to my most recent CFI, with whom I trained for my CPL (finished last month) - he is not a regular in any of the on-line helo forums. His first reaction was how vicious some of the posts are here. I guess I've become a bit used to/immune to the occasional vitriolic comments but he has a point. I have read the lead-up to the "you're a moron for slamming the EMS industry" a couple times and I don't see the insult on someone's livlihood or manhood or whatever honked that guy off.
2. (This is obvious but I'll mention it anyway.) The industry seems to be in a chicken-and-egg problem. All of the hirers want high timers, who are becoming fewer and fewer every day (esp. in the US) with the military-trained guys from the 60s/70s retiring, and with fewer hours being flown by guys that *are* in the military due to flight hour costs (e.g. AH-64 vs. UH-1). Something has to give, and I think it's silly to expect the low timers to pay >$US300,000 to become "seasoned". I also think the insurance companies are going to have to lower their limits at least a bit, or there won't be enough "warm bodies" to fly the more difficult jobs in a few years.
Note that I am not a career pilot - I am too old and too gainfully employed
and thus fly for fun (though I cannot deny my dream of not having to *pay* to fly someday). That must be why I sign off with my real name - will I regret this some day?I would encourage forum participants to not do what is so easy on the internet - hide behind their keyboards.
regards to all,
Dave Blevins
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Originally Posted by BigMike
Don't worry Dave. This is all childs play compared to the Aussie's and Kiwi's discussing Rugby.
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Solutions Yeah!
Found one tonight, wife cooking, I wanders in, ‘hows it goin luv?’
“Good, get the filo out of the fridge please,”- duh - feelow - phillow, or duh- ‘what’s it look like?’ “F_I_L_O,” ‘Oh yes of course.’ Then it’s, “damm it’s mouldy, bloody wet weather, there is another,” - hmmm - damm it’s mouldy too! Been a long day! Wife is in hover OGE - language or tears? Hart-damm – think, quick!
Who was that last student? yes oogle boy, solutions he said, smart man; I says as I invite wife to sample a Petit Verdot from the house of R.L. Buller and Son, smart man, his shout next.
Real solutions OZ industry not so easy, quad A are leading the way, they are organised.
OZ is anything except organised historically. There was lots of work way back when, Whitlam got in - exploration shut down - everyone bolted.
Mustering got going big time - the big clean up programs finished - everyone bolted. Musterers now between 1500 and 10k experience in OZ, bugger all.
National Safety Council (NSC) started up - good training - it got going - it went broke - everyone bolted. Not so good now.
Dedicated EMS units get going with the new machines just available to do it with – every outfit, almost every machine, has a different company - no collusion – no organisation – no lobby. Standards interpretation?? VMC – IMC ??
The coppers get going – not too bad it seems – now they’re a-shooting each other. I wonder will the nationalising of the road rules lead to the same idea here - one police wing OZ wide. After NSC every one is scared maybe.
P68 advice to Texdoc - yes and now muster outfits look for stock skills first, then they just learn to read and write and - they bolt – to Canada or somewhere. If you are inclined to know cattle take heart and persevere. Another box to tick!
Positives;
Musterers and military have provided skilled pilots. Tourism is an opening – all must have good basics - choose flying schools carefully.
I think back a bit, HAA, Ticehurst, Tyler - very good men - with a few others too, but industry is way too diverse and – tyranny of distance – all that, maybe a new push with the better comms of late? These keyboards??
The only time musterers got together they got one good F/D rule out of it. Some say musterers should have their own organisation like quad A, oh yeah! And what, one for EMS – Offshore –etc –etc? Blarney.
A solution may be - one voice - one country - one language – can a new HAA do it? Industry needs a filter, communicator and a voice, just to be known, before it hammers out procedures, techniques etc.
TET
Thanks deeper, I was wondering about my info, Qld and all.
Oogle - yes, and dyslexic and my glass is empty, and ocker mate reckons I’m an outsider; I’ll play along with anyone until they go outside the curve then lookout!!
Blave, it won’t hurt you, we won’t tell anyone. I work on a theory that if you want someone to learn or do something for themselves, like putting the collective down; you must first have their attention. Turning the engine off is one way- in real recalcitrant cases you can follow that with a nonchalant, hows the RPM doin Einstein?—oh course I don’t suggest this for an R22 but there is issues that will cover them.
.
“Good, get the filo out of the fridge please,”- duh - feelow - phillow, or duh- ‘what’s it look like?’ “F_I_L_O,” ‘Oh yes of course.’ Then it’s, “damm it’s mouldy, bloody wet weather, there is another,” - hmmm - damm it’s mouldy too! Been a long day! Wife is in hover OGE - language or tears? Hart-damm – think, quick!
Who was that last student? yes oogle boy, solutions he said, smart man; I says as I invite wife to sample a Petit Verdot from the house of R.L. Buller and Son, smart man, his shout next.
Real solutions OZ industry not so easy, quad A are leading the way, they are organised.
OZ is anything except organised historically. There was lots of work way back when, Whitlam got in - exploration shut down - everyone bolted.
Mustering got going big time - the big clean up programs finished - everyone bolted. Musterers now between 1500 and 10k experience in OZ, bugger all.
National Safety Council (NSC) started up - good training - it got going - it went broke - everyone bolted. Not so good now.
Dedicated EMS units get going with the new machines just available to do it with – every outfit, almost every machine, has a different company - no collusion – no organisation – no lobby. Standards interpretation?? VMC – IMC ??
The coppers get going – not too bad it seems – now they’re a-shooting each other. I wonder will the nationalising of the road rules lead to the same idea here - one police wing OZ wide. After NSC every one is scared maybe.
P68 advice to Texdoc - yes and now muster outfits look for stock skills first, then they just learn to read and write and - they bolt – to Canada or somewhere. If you are inclined to know cattle take heart and persevere. Another box to tick!
Positives;
Musterers and military have provided skilled pilots. Tourism is an opening – all must have good basics - choose flying schools carefully.
I think back a bit, HAA, Ticehurst, Tyler - very good men - with a few others too, but industry is way too diverse and – tyranny of distance – all that, maybe a new push with the better comms of late? These keyboards??
The only time musterers got together they got one good F/D rule out of it. Some say musterers should have their own organisation like quad A, oh yeah! And what, one for EMS – Offshore –etc –etc? Blarney.
A solution may be - one voice - one country - one language – can a new HAA do it? Industry needs a filter, communicator and a voice, just to be known, before it hammers out procedures, techniques etc.
TET
Thanks deeper, I was wondering about my info, Qld and all.
Oogle - yes, and dyslexic and my glass is empty, and ocker mate reckons I’m an outsider; I’ll play along with anyone until they go outside the curve then lookout!!
Blave, it won’t hurt you, we won’t tell anyone. I work on a theory that if you want someone to learn or do something for themselves, like putting the collective down; you must first have their attention. Turning the engine off is one way- in real recalcitrant cases you can follow that with a nonchalant, hows the RPM doin Einstein?—oh course I don’t suggest this for an R22 but there is issues that will cover them.
.
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Thanks Topend but......
I didn't understand a
thing that you rambled on about.
I will let it go at this point for want of not having to digest something else that you care to write.
I didn't understand a
thing that you rambled on about.I will let it go at this point for want of not having to digest something else that you care to write.
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Yes hmmm...
I'm sure there was some good stuff in there but me thinks the Petit Verdot might have clouded the clarity of the message somewhat.
Fortunately I have plenty of time on my hands so I'll assume the problem lies with me and I'll re-read it another 20 times to ensure I understand the finer detail...
P68
I'm sure there was some good stuff in there but me thinks the Petit Verdot might have clouded the clarity of the message somewhat.
Fortunately I have plenty of time on my hands so I'll assume the problem lies with me and I'll re-read it another 20 times to ensure I understand the finer detail...
P68
How many of those Petit Verdot did you sample before blessing us with that entangled, encrypted load of abselute ****e?
What are you trying to say, that the glory days of the Aus helicopter industry are over?
Where are they all bolting to mate?
Do you think that becuase BTEC is over, the NSC was headed by a snake in the grass and that government policy goes in cycles like everything else in the world that the industry is doomed?
Can you explain that all again in English please.
Have you ever flown EMS in the dark by the way? Do you realize the extra workload and parameters involved when you can't see out the window?
After saying all that I had such a hard time following your post that I may be well off track here. Maybe I will understand a bit better when you are not under the influence of whatever it was that allowed that to make sense to you.
What are you trying to say, that the glory days of the Aus helicopter industry are over?
Where are they all bolting to mate?
Do you think that becuase BTEC is over, the NSC was headed by a snake in the grass and that government policy goes in cycles like everything else in the world that the industry is doomed?
Can you explain that all again in English please.
Have you ever flown EMS in the dark by the way? Do you realize the extra workload and parameters involved when you can't see out the window?
After saying all that I had such a hard time following your post that I may be well off track here. Maybe I will understand a bit better when you are not under the influence of whatever it was that allowed that to make sense to you.
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I'm scared
TET, you actually make some sense! I had to leave it for a while and then come back to it, but you do.
Let's sift out the stuff about you helping the cheese and kisses make dinner...
You are saying that we need to get the attention of those that seem to matter. The insurance companies, the hirers, those that control the dollars. You used the example of turning the engine off and going into 'an auto'. How are you suggesting that we send the industry into an auto? "Check the RPM!!?"
You talked about the time the musters got together, and as a part of the industry had a win for F&D. You talked about a new HAA. You talked about using better comms, maybe our keyboards (Or this forum...) But who do we aim at?
There is a pecking order that pilots know all too well. The student needs to learn. The instructor needs hours, so he teaches. The new pilot goes flying (tourists mostly, b/c city boys don't know one end of a cow from another) and then become instructors. Instructors hope to teach at a company that gets some other contracts (fires, power lines, etc), pick up a NVFR and other ratings and then move onto EMS, ENG, off-shore.
Who wants to upset this delicate balance? Even tourist operators don't like taking pilots at 110 hours b/c they're too big an insurance risk. The industry is controlled by the dollar and the insurance companies.
How do we control insurance companies? As Rob Rich said in a recent heli-news, (not word for word...) the "insurance companies need to understand that student pilots have met the standard and are safe!" Therefore the premiums should be aimed at the role that the helicopter is being used for, not at the experience of the pilot. Maybe we need to show the insurance companies how we earnt our dollars, what jobs we did in the past year and then they can calculate the risks involved, averaged out over the total of the jobs and then charge an appropriate premium.
This means that a low hour pilot, just out of training, being closely supervised by the CP should be a safer prospect than someone working fires or power line inspections. (No insult intended for pilots involved in recent mishaps, just stating that we don't see many incidents involving tourist operators, and we shouldn't.)
When we realise that the cost of the risk is what stifles us, we can then start to work towards fixing it.
CYHeli
Let's sift out the stuff about you helping the cheese and kisses make dinner...
You are saying that we need to get the attention of those that seem to matter. The insurance companies, the hirers, those that control the dollars. You used the example of turning the engine off and going into 'an auto'. How are you suggesting that we send the industry into an auto? "Check the RPM!!?"
You talked about the time the musters got together, and as a part of the industry had a win for F&D. You talked about a new HAA. You talked about using better comms, maybe our keyboards (Or this forum...) But who do we aim at?
There is a pecking order that pilots know all too well. The student needs to learn. The instructor needs hours, so he teaches. The new pilot goes flying (tourists mostly, b/c city boys don't know one end of a cow from another) and then become instructors. Instructors hope to teach at a company that gets some other contracts (fires, power lines, etc), pick up a NVFR and other ratings and then move onto EMS, ENG, off-shore.
Who wants to upset this delicate balance? Even tourist operators don't like taking pilots at 110 hours b/c they're too big an insurance risk. The industry is controlled by the dollar and the insurance companies.
How do we control insurance companies? As Rob Rich said in a recent heli-news, (not word for word...) the "insurance companies need to understand that student pilots have met the standard and are safe!" Therefore the premiums should be aimed at the role that the helicopter is being used for, not at the experience of the pilot. Maybe we need to show the insurance companies how we earnt our dollars, what jobs we did in the past year and then they can calculate the risks involved, averaged out over the total of the jobs and then charge an appropriate premium.
This means that a low hour pilot, just out of training, being closely supervised by the CP should be a safer prospect than someone working fires or power line inspections. (No insult intended for pilots involved in recent mishaps, just stating that we don't see many incidents involving tourist operators, and we shouldn't.)
When we realise that the cost of the risk is what stifles us, we can then start to work towards fixing it.
CYHeli