Which country for training?
ICAO do not issue licences - they are part of the United Nations. Member states (of ICAO) issue licences using the guidelines provided by the Standards and Recommended Practices (SARPs) for Flight Crew Licensing contained in Annexes to the Chicago Convention. Even then, member States do not have to follow the SARPs - the only obligation they have is to notify ICAO of any differences.
There really is no such thing as an "ICAO" licence...
There really is no such thing as an "ICAO" licence...
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Dave
Because to gain a JAA instructor rating you need to have 300 hours!!!!
Plus you will find employment very difficult in the UK with just a JAA CPL and 150 hours......
When I did my licences I choose to do the FAA system and converted at a later date. But many others do choose the UK route because they feel that would better work for their circumstances. Neither route is wrong, the main thing is to have a plan, a goal for when you have your licences.
Unfortunately what you will find is whatever you budget for just won't be enough.
My plan was to gain my licences in 150 hours but you need that many BEFORE you can take your Commercial checkride, add an instrument, CFI and CFII and you have suddenly added 10-20 more hours. Plus whilst I was in training, there was a regulation change and you suddenly needed 200 hours before you could instruct in a Robinson in the US. Then there is the money for the first job search, which might include a cross US drive for a non-existant job.
Keep asking questions and hopefully Pprune can help save you a few thousand pounds or dollars!!!
Because to gain a JAA instructor rating you need to have 300 hours!!!!
Plus you will find employment very difficult in the UK with just a JAA CPL and 150 hours......
When I did my licences I choose to do the FAA system and converted at a later date. But many others do choose the UK route because they feel that would better work for their circumstances. Neither route is wrong, the main thing is to have a plan, a goal for when you have your licences.
Unfortunately what you will find is whatever you budget for just won't be enough.
My plan was to gain my licences in 150 hours but you need that many BEFORE you can take your Commercial checkride, add an instrument, CFI and CFII and you have suddenly added 10-20 more hours. Plus whilst I was in training, there was a regulation change and you suddenly needed 200 hours before you could instruct in a Robinson in the US. Then there is the money for the first job search, which might include a cross US drive for a non-existant job.
Keep asking questions and hopefully Pprune can help save you a few thousand pounds or dollars!!!
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Apologies heliport for not public posting I was trying to avoid a repeat of the "what do you know you punk" gang from turning dave's post into a slagging fiasco.
Others have answered the questions better than I did anyway.
Others have answered the questions better than I did anyway.
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rotorbike (and anyone else), a theoretical question for you...
if i went to the US (with a JAA PPL) and did the FAA CPL course and the FAA CFI course -ONLY-, and with 18 months left on my J1 visa, what chance do i have of getting an instructing job that will enable me to get 800-1000 hours when my J1 expires?
dave
if i went to the US (with a JAA PPL) and did the FAA CPL course and the FAA CFI course -ONLY-, and with 18 months left on my J1 visa, what chance do i have of getting an instructing job that will enable me to get 800-1000 hours when my J1 expires?
dave
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You'ld need to work with someone who has a CFII as its part of the PPL and CPL training, smaller schools need you to be a CFII, have a look on web job sites especially justhelicopter (sorry heliport) they have many adds for Instructors and most require CFII, but yes its possible to work and gain hours with only a CPL and CFI, especially if the J1 visa school hires you
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Dave,
Just cause you attend a flight school, it by absoloutely no means guarantees you a job, it all depends on finshing at the right time, if they need an instructor great, if not, bummer.
As for getting CFI work in the U.S, maybe you will maybe you won't you just can't guarantee anything, some people leave with all the FAA qualifications and no experience and no money left.
Its also worth bearing in mind if you do the frozen JAA Atpl you only have 3 years to get you instrument rating other wise it is a wasted excercise, (A JAA instrument rating costs an extra 30,000 pounds)
Really think about it, with a clear head, its not for those who have to budget, do not under any circumstances think
"Its o.k I will be heading on to a well paid North Sea job soon enough"
Because it is very very unlikely.
Just cause you attend a flight school, it by absoloutely no means guarantees you a job, it all depends on finshing at the right time, if they need an instructor great, if not, bummer.
As for getting CFI work in the U.S, maybe you will maybe you won't you just can't guarantee anything, some people leave with all the FAA qualifications and no experience and no money left.
Its also worth bearing in mind if you do the frozen JAA Atpl you only have 3 years to get you instrument rating other wise it is a wasted excercise, (A JAA instrument rating costs an extra 30,000 pounds)
Really think about it, with a clear head, its not for those who have to budget, do not under any circumstances think
"Its o.k I will be heading on to a well paid North Sea job soon enough"
Because it is very very unlikely.
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Going with the PPL in pocket does put you in theory 10 steps forward towards your FAA CPL but it also means you go with the intent with putting less money to your potential employer. Less time in his face showing how you would fit in as one of his employees.
Plus you will have to check if a JAA PPL will allow issuance of an FAA PPL otherwise you will have to be rated on your JAA PPL in both the R22 and 300CBi so that you can act as PIC towards your FAA Commercial.
Both Slotty and WOB have really answered your chances of gaining employment with just a CFI but I'll try and expand. Firstly check out the HAI webpage for current instructors. There are 16 in Florida only 4 are CFI's the rest CFII.
Also consider that every overseas student goes with the same intent as you and every instructor will be working to get 1000 hours before his J1 visa expires. If every student roles up and flys 80 hours dual with his instructor and the rest solo, that means for every ten students, only one will get employment with the school they train at.
So you stand one in ten of a chance for a job but then only if one of the 25% leave. So now you are seeking a job elsewhere and since 1997 an FAA Commercial includes some Instrument flight instruction which you won't be able to give as you aren't a CFII which as stated above will only probably allow you to work for one of the larger organisation...... which unfortunately is the exact kind of place that you intend to do your training and what do they do...... employ from within.
Don't get me wrong I'm really not trying to convince you to not go ahead with this, just trying to let you head overseas with your eyes open and maybe some extra funds that if you don't gain employment you could call upon.
Another take is that it will take you 6 months to gain the licences..... maybe another 6 months to find a CFI job (not every school has 75% CFII's)...... leaving a year to gain 600-800 hours (you already have about 200 from your commercial). This is easily attainable.
Plus you will have to check if a JAA PPL will allow issuance of an FAA PPL otherwise you will have to be rated on your JAA PPL in both the R22 and 300CBi so that you can act as PIC towards your FAA Commercial.
Both Slotty and WOB have really answered your chances of gaining employment with just a CFI but I'll try and expand. Firstly check out the HAI webpage for current instructors. There are 16 in Florida only 4 are CFI's the rest CFII.
Also consider that every overseas student goes with the same intent as you and every instructor will be working to get 1000 hours before his J1 visa expires. If every student roles up and flys 80 hours dual with his instructor and the rest solo, that means for every ten students, only one will get employment with the school they train at.
So you stand one in ten of a chance for a job but then only if one of the 25% leave. So now you are seeking a job elsewhere and since 1997 an FAA Commercial includes some Instrument flight instruction which you won't be able to give as you aren't a CFII which as stated above will only probably allow you to work for one of the larger organisation...... which unfortunately is the exact kind of place that you intend to do your training and what do they do...... employ from within.
Don't get me wrong I'm really not trying to convince you to not go ahead with this, just trying to let you head overseas with your eyes open and maybe some extra funds that if you don't gain employment you could call upon.
Another take is that it will take you 6 months to gain the licences..... maybe another 6 months to find a CFI job (not every school has 75% CFII's)...... leaving a year to gain 600-800 hours (you already have about 200 from your commercial). This is easily attainable.
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Why oh Why the UK
Can anyone give me an insight as to why you want to train in the UK?
Its expensive, fraught with a web of administartion, and the prospects are next to nothing, if what I have studied is true about the north sea, 9/11, and the general state of the industry in Europe, why would anyone considering jumping in, have any aspirations to go to Aberdeen and where a rubber suit??
Its expensive, fraught with a web of administartion, and the prospects are next to nothing, if what I have studied is true about the north sea, 9/11, and the general state of the industry in Europe, why would anyone considering jumping in, have any aspirations to go to Aberdeen and where a rubber suit??
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I have no desire to wear a rubber suit or move to Scotland.
Been to the States and prefer the Uk (may be mad- but they're my choices and I'm happy)
It seems that few helicopter pilots 'do it' for the money or the job security.
I'm doing it because the machines fascinate me, its the most fun I've ever had (with my clothes on
) and from the outset I knew that I'd never have been satisfied unless I tried.
I have only the CPL course to complete and despite the trauma of the exams and all the red tape if I had the time and money again I'd still make the same choices.
Knew from the outset that getting a job would be the hardest part- I just don't accept that as a reason not to have a go.
Sort of a 'glass half full' attitude
Been to the States and prefer the Uk (may be mad- but they're my choices and I'm happy)
It seems that few helicopter pilots 'do it' for the money or the job security.
I'm doing it because the machines fascinate me, its the most fun I've ever had (with my clothes on
) and from the outset I knew that I'd never have been satisfied unless I tried.I have only the CPL course to complete and despite the trauma of the exams and all the red tape if I had the time and money again I'd still make the same choices.
Knew from the outset that getting a job would be the hardest part- I just don't accept that as a reason not to have a go.
Sort of a 'glass half full' attitude
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Each to their own and all that, but I trained in the UK and would do again if I had my time again. The reason is simple. I couldn't afford to give up my proper job whilst I was training. I chipped away on the self improver route, happy in the knowledge that if it went pear shaped and couldn't get a job flying I still had an income. It wasn't practical to disappear across the pond whenever I wanted to train. Besides I always wanted to work in the UK, and I was told that it was easier to get an instructor's job if you trained in the UK. That I think is true.
As for rubber suits in Aberdeen? I managed to get a goonbag job in Aberdeen and now fly SAR....... Best job in the world.
As for rubber suits in Aberdeen? I managed to get a goonbag job in Aberdeen and now fly SAR....... Best job in the world.
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Well let's have a quick reality check. There are two forces at work that make the UK helicopter market what it is :-
1) Supply and Demand
2) CAA/JAA
For 1) there isn't a great need for helicopter services in the UK since the country is small, well populated and has good infrastructure. What demand there is is filled by those leaving the military and the few civilian pilots who manage to get a JAA license and sufficient hours to work in something other than instruction.
You can probably count the (non-instruction) jobs in the low hundreds if not the 10's. Intruction for heli-flying in the UK seems to be in an een worse state than that for fixed wing too due to the exorbitant costs.
2) The CAA/JAA are too busy worrying about fixed wing regulation harmonisation to really have much time for a niche interest like helicopters - much less to worry about a very few people who are trying to buy their way into the profession.
What this means is that no one is going to kiss your ass and beg you to fly, since they don't need to. Plenty of pilots are available to meet the demand in the UK.
If you want an easier ride, I hear plumbing, nursing and dentistry are all in high demand and the government will even pay you to learn those subjects and you'll get a decent paying job at the end.
If not, then better get that dry suit out and look for a place in Aberdeen.
r.
1) Supply and Demand
2) CAA/JAA
For 1) there isn't a great need for helicopter services in the UK since the country is small, well populated and has good infrastructure. What demand there is is filled by those leaving the military and the few civilian pilots who manage to get a JAA license and sufficient hours to work in something other than instruction.
You can probably count the (non-instruction) jobs in the low hundreds if not the 10's. Intruction for heli-flying in the UK seems to be in an een worse state than that for fixed wing too due to the exorbitant costs.
2) The CAA/JAA are too busy worrying about fixed wing regulation harmonisation to really have much time for a niche interest like helicopters - much less to worry about a very few people who are trying to buy their way into the profession.
What this means is that no one is going to kiss your ass and beg you to fly, since they don't need to. Plenty of pilots are available to meet the demand in the UK.
If you want an easier ride, I hear plumbing, nursing and dentistry are all in high demand and the government will even pay you to learn those subjects and you'll get a decent paying job at the end.
If not, then better get that dry suit out and look for a place in Aberdeen.
r.
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Ryzu,
Thank you for your post, however I am a little confused as to how you can enter the profession without buying your way in.
If u give up your liberty and join the forces, that is the obvious route, however if you know of any other routes to pursue which don’t involve a large commitment of time and money, (and in my case relocation), to chase a dream, that may or may not bear any fruit in respect of employment then please direct me to the genie in the lamp.
I am just intrigued why people opt for training in the UK, and it seems that the prime reason is unavoidable commitments.
Thank you for your post, however I am a little confused as to how you can enter the profession without buying your way in.
If u give up your liberty and join the forces, that is the obvious route, however if you know of any other routes to pursue which don’t involve a large commitment of time and money, (and in my case relocation), to chase a dream, that may or may not bear any fruit in respect of employment then please direct me to the genie in the lamp.
I am just intrigued why people opt for training in the UK, and it seems that the prime reason is unavoidable commitments.
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Why the UK
There is no doubt that training in other countries, such as the USA, will save an appreciable amount of money. No one seriously disputes that. Some people will rubbish training in the USA. As someone with licences in both countries I can tell you there is little difference. You get good and bad in both places.
Good luck wherever you train.
Good luck wherever you train.
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I was advised that for better chances of employment in UK, train in UK. Also, USA great cost savings, until you incorporate living / feeding costs etc. Not many people can afford to just quit work and have the backing to train abroad.
I did hear though that training in NZ is also looked well upon by the UK employment market
I did hear though that training in NZ is also looked well upon by the UK employment market
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Well there goes that fuzzy idea to train as a helicopter pilot, earn big bucks and have lots of adventures.
Back to fixed wing I go
I started fixed wing in Australia and came to the UK where I finished. Why did I finish it here...your not gunna believe me when I say,,,best instructors and far less rules/regulations than Australia. Lots more choice too!
I sort of hoped that helicopter training would be the same
KD
Back to fixed wing I go
I started fixed wing in Australia and came to the UK where I finished. Why did I finish it here...your not gunna believe me when I say,,,best instructors and far less rules/regulations than Australia. Lots more choice too!
I sort of hoped that helicopter training would be the same
KD
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Metch,
Just to follow up. The point about 'buying your way in' was just to say that the CAA consider it an unusual route as does the government who don't offer the same kind of support to trainee pilots that they offer for other professions.
In the past you could also get trained by being sponsored by someone like Bristows. However, those companies are struggling in the current market and as far as I'm aware there are no current sponsored programs available. There was also talk that CabAir would do some kind of sponsorship to CFI level with pay taken from your CFI salary to pay them back. However I'm not sure that program went ahead either.
The last point to make is that companies (when they used to sponsor) sent their students overseas to train anyway - the UK is too expensive even for corporate budgets.
I think someone suggested that UK employers would prefer UK training - personally I think that is a myth used by flying schools to scare up custom.
It seems to me the requirement is a) the right license (i.e. JAA) and b) the right kind of hours (i.e. PIC in changing environments and conditions). Other than that I doubt an employer will care too much about where your hours were gained. Getting that JAA license though is not a small task if you have an FAA or other country license...
r.
Just to follow up. The point about 'buying your way in' was just to say that the CAA consider it an unusual route as does the government who don't offer the same kind of support to trainee pilots that they offer for other professions.
In the past you could also get trained by being sponsored by someone like Bristows. However, those companies are struggling in the current market and as far as I'm aware there are no current sponsored programs available. There was also talk that CabAir would do some kind of sponsorship to CFI level with pay taken from your CFI salary to pay them back. However I'm not sure that program went ahead either.
The last point to make is that companies (when they used to sponsor) sent their students overseas to train anyway - the UK is too expensive even for corporate budgets.
I think someone suggested that UK employers would prefer UK training - personally I think that is a myth used by flying schools to scare up custom.
It seems to me the requirement is a) the right license (i.e. JAA) and b) the right kind of hours (i.e. PIC in changing environments and conditions). Other than that I doubt an employer will care too much about where your hours were gained. Getting that JAA license though is not a small task if you have an FAA or other country license...
r.
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Ryuzu
You may have given me a clue; I’m off to cabair on 7th Feb, to pick some brains at their free seminar on heli training.
Have been warned they have a slick sales operation, what the hell nowt to lose, and they throw in a free lunch.
Must be said I have heard this operation called "scab-air", more than once from some very reliable sources.
It’s got to be worth a look, as they are the biggest outfit in the UK.
I might learn something.
You may have given me a clue; I’m off to cabair on 7th Feb, to pick some brains at their free seminar on heli training.
Have been warned they have a slick sales operation, what the hell nowt to lose, and they throw in a free lunch.
Must be said I have heard this operation called "scab-air", more than once from some very reliable sources.
It’s got to be worth a look, as they are the biggest outfit in the UK.
I might learn something.
Yes, they do have a slick sales operation. But they are also very good at ground and flight training, so are well worth considering.
Check your wallet as you leave, though !
Check your wallet as you leave, though !
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The problem with Aberdeen is mostly the management.
But you earn 737 money.
4 years with the company 2500hrs = £40.000
Fresh comand £60.000
Career advancement is pot luck.
Our lot is strapped for pilot's, only they themselves do not appear to know it.
If you are a contract pilot on the medium fleet you can make a killing at £305 per day co-pilot £325 comander.
We have a whole gaggle of them.
In my base only 10% of the pilot actually look forward to going flying the rest would prefer to stay at home and receive the pay in the post.
Aberdeen is probably the same.
Helicopter pilots generally fly these marvelous maschines because they love them and only because they love them.
This is just me sitting on the fence.
Life is to b**dy short!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But you earn 737 money.
4 years with the company 2500hrs = £40.000
Fresh comand £60.000
Career advancement is pot luck.
Our lot is strapped for pilot's, only they themselves do not appear to know it.
If you are a contract pilot on the medium fleet you can make a killing at £305 per day co-pilot £325 comander.
We have a whole gaggle of them.
In my base only 10% of the pilot actually look forward to going flying the rest would prefer to stay at home and receive the pay in the post.
Aberdeen is probably the same.
Helicopter pilots generally fly these marvelous maschines because they love them and only because they love them.
This is just me sitting on the fence.
Life is to b**dy short!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!