Age Concern: Am I too old?

[Toppled Gyro]

It has been suggested to me that I should include a bit more of the background to my particular case. At this stage, for legal reasons I have to maintain some form of anonymity but to this end I have tried to include a bit more of my details than my original posting showed.

In the non-flying accident that I suffered, I severely banged my head. This has caused irreparable damage to my balance mechanism. My flying licence has been suspended and I am not even permitted to drive any road vehicles. In fact travelling on any means of public transport does induce severe balance disorders, so unless I am able to be very carefully driven I am effectively housebound. It also means that I am frequently bed-bound due to acute vertigo etc. To put it mildly my vestibular system is totally shot.

There is this on going legal situation with an Insurance Company, who to put it mildly, are doing what ever they can to worm out of any liabilities. This has been on going for the last two years. What is currently being debated is what I have lost by way of my loss of earnings due to this accident. In trying to determine what my loss of earnings actually is, it has now reached a point where they are categorically stating that in the current employment market there are no openings for any pilot, in a flying position, over the age of 58. Additionally, they are stating the employment situation is such that I would not even be able to have a non-flying operations or ground training post. They are stating that they have an expert witness’s evidence to this effect. (I hope it is not you Flying Lawyer!)

Apparently, it is so easy to show that there is very little employment in the helicopter industry generally and definitely not for pilots post age 58. It is further stated that no Helicopter Operators are prepared to employ them. In reality, this is known not to be true. This is the hard bit to prove and can only be shown by positive offers of employment. To countermand this expert’s opinion, that I would not be employable post 58, my legal advisors are trying to collate some hypothetical job offers with salary information to show that this is not the definitive case. My original posting on PPrune on this thread, has both directly and indirectly, lead or is leading to obtain four offers of hypothetical employment. Very many thanks to all the PPruners that have helped and made this possible.

There has also been mention to me by a lot of PPruners about self employment status, freelance work, short term contracting and ground/flight instruction. I accept that these are areas that the older pilots tend to move towards. However, to be able to sufficiently demonstrate that there is a market for these pilots is even more difficult. My legal advisors have suggested that if I can obtain statements from individuals that are currently working in these categories this may help my case. To this end they have drawn up a skeleton word document which I could send to anyone who can and is prepared to assist. This statement would have to also include an indication of the remuneration being achieved to relate to the loss of earnings question. If there is anyone out there who is prepared to do this for me it would be greatly appreciated. Please send me a Private Message and I will respond accordingly.

I did send personal emails through the PPrune email system to two of the more prolific elderly PPrune posters to ask if they would be prepared to provide statements. As yet I have not had a reply from either. I only hope that it is the PPrune emailing system at fault and not that they do not wish to help a fellow pilot.

Once again, very many thanks to those that have helped me.

[Nigel Osborn]

Denis,
Many thanks for stating your age. I am now the second oldest pilot I know!!

Toppled
I don't know much about age limits in UK for permanent employment but here in Australia it is not a big issue. Sure most employers prefer 25 year old pilots with 30 years experience but a lot will settle for experience. So much so that in the past 18 months I have been offered 2 chief pilot and several line/training positions but have stuck to doing weekend casual flying. In other words, make sure you have a good legal team because if you were a good pilot/employee before your accident, keep fighting on as insurance companies prefer not to pay up.
Good luck.

[six-sixty]

Too old?

Hi guys/gals, I'm been flying "planks" for a good few yrs privately but recently had my first helo lesson. It was a TOTALLY Life Changing Experience, and I just HAVE to fly them for a living. I am very seriously considering doing CPL(h), prob starting next summer. Trouble is, I'll be 37 at least by the time I'm done (35 now) .... not young in Pilot years.

I've read similar threads from wannabes, know the ridiculous £ numbers, understand I'll have to sell all my wordly possessions and will probably be poor for rest of my days, AND that noone's even hiring right now... and I STILL want to do it.

Having said that I'm prepared to take my chances, as long as my age won't be a terminal handicap.

Anyone else out there made it at these heady years? Any opinions on the N Sea operators preferences (or not) for such "maturity"?

I'm also talking to a few UK schools... I can see the logic in training in the country you want to fly in and will if I can, BUT how much of a disadvantage are those who train abroad? The £ savings are substantial, but false economy if noone will hire me.

I'd be really grateful for any advice especially from anyone who's been in a similar position.

[helimatt]

G'Day Six Sixty
I know a bloke who didnt start flying fling wings until 35. He walked out of flying school into a Jetranger and now flys a Squirrel, he also has a bit of time in the BK 117.
This is definitely the exception and not the rule (by this I mean straight into a kero burner out of flight school) but it shows that guys do get lucky breaks.
So if this is what you really want to do give it a dab, cause if you dont you'll forever wonder what could have been
Personally, if I was an operator I would prefer to employ someone low time a bit older than a bit younger due to the maturity factor.
Hope this helps and good luck

[RW-1]

I'll be 39 in Dec, and will be a CFI in a week or so, not too late at all.

(And my CFI is older than I am).

Go for what you want, just realize that it will take some hours, those stories, while some are exaggerated, have a basis in fact.

[six-sixty]

Thanks very much chaps. All I need to know is that there's a glimmer of a chance, and hopefully let my flying ability and terrier-like tenacity do the talking afterwards.

I'd still be really interested to hear from anyone of my age(ish) who's gone to the North Sea recently?

Now for a booze-free weekend in anticipation of my Class1 next week!

[Helinut]

S-S,

I started when I was 37. Been flying heles for 12-13 years now. A long hard road, but I enjoy every flight still. You need to be pretty determined though and make use of your other assets.


Good Luck!!

[Camp Freddie]

my $0.02 worth,

1) I didnt fly at all until age 32 and got my north sea job age 36,
one of the operators is unlikely to pay for an IR if they were recruiting (which they arent) if you are 40 or more.
the other operator (who also arent recruiting) seem a little more relaxed than this,
however if you have £30k extra to pay for your own IR it will be less of a problem once recruitment picks up, but you will have spent about £40k on the CPL + £30k on the IR i.e £70k wow !!!!!

2) I dont see a problem at all onshore as long as you have the £££'s and accept that you will probably need to do your instructor rating after your CPL at heavy initial cost in order to make the risk worth it

ab-initio to CPL + no insructor rating = £40k + high risk
ab-initio to CPL + instructor rating = £60k + lower risk

if you think you can do your CPL and get a job with 185 hours onshore you are likely to be diaspointed and get dejected about it

[six-sixty]

Many thanks for the encouragement guys.

Anyone know if the lack of recruitment currently is because the the world's economy is messed up generally i.e. at some point it'll get back to normal again? Or is it more to do with the N Sea oil actually running out and operations winding down slowly, albeit over a long period but with a general trend downwards?

What I'm wondering is how long we can depend on it as a launchpad into commercial helicopter flying in the UK. No idea what similar opportunities might exist abroad?

Anyone out there in the know got an opinion?

(Medical still on Thurs, but one drink won't hurt will it)

[Heliman01]

Too Old

I was in a similar situation to Camp Freddie, started flying helos at 32 with a PPL then got CPL by 35, and started work flying the north sea at 37, with a lot of money induced stress. What ever money i planned on spending, there was always more needed !!(and i had a house and family to keep).

I was prepared for a tough time to get up the rotary ladder, but i didnt realise how frustrating it can be, and i'm not sure i would make the journey again.

You are asking the correct questions for a wannabe, but expect the worst and hope for the best i.e possible saying goodbye to £70k +++ (you need the CPL + Instructors rating ) the instructor rating will get you the experience you need, which is what the North sea operators want. But nobody cares where you get the hours from or how much you paid, but get as much P1 as possible.

The future of North sea is grey just like the weather. One operator has just let go of a few of the latest ab-initio cadets complete with free cpl,s. But tomorrow they could be recruiting !! It pays to be one step ahead of the market and position yourself accordingly, but don't forget to write those biggggg cheques out.

Best thing to do is get a big F off motorbike, and take up scuba diving,skiing and you'll still have change for a big boat, cause thats what bored pilots buy.

Best of luck

Forgot to mention friend of mine started work for scotia 2 years at the ripe old age of 42, as a puma copilot after instructing on the sout coast. He sarted flying at 38.

Again best of luck

[Whirlybird]

In November 2001, with 185 hours and a brand new CPL(H), I phoned an acquaintance who's a North Sea helicopter pilot. My plans had always been to instruct part time; I didn't want a new career, just an addition to the old one. But people told me they were recruiting, so why not check it out, I thought. She said they were indeed recruiting, and my age (I'm considerably older than you, but I don't give away my age on PPRuNe ) wouldn't go against me. She invited me to visit and take a couple of trips out to the rigs to see what I thought of the life, and it was arranged for early December.

By the time I got there...December 4th 2001 I think...everything had changed, in the aftermath of 9/11. The North Sea companies now wanted pilots to get their own instrument ratings, and even then there was no guarantee of a job. She apologised for dragging me up to Aberdeen, but I didn't mind; I had a break and a couple of trips out to the rigs...and although I thoroughly enjoyed the experience, I decided I probably wouldn't have liked it long term anyway.

But she said exactly what Heliman01 just has - tomorrow they could be recruiting! Since then things have not improved...but they could. Just don't rely on it.

[mrgogetter]

Age Concern

Hi ppl,


I am 33 at the moment, am I too old to start a career as a pilot, I have already started doing my ppl(h). Hopefully I will have that in the bag by april, I then intend to build hours in both the uk and in the states before doing my cpl. Is this feasible???

Any help and advise would be great, by the way has the job prospects got any better lately.

Again thanks in advance for your help

[B Sousa]

Depends on if you want a retirement at a reasonable age or if your rich enough to support yourself and fly.
Many will tell you go for it if thats what you want, throw caution to the wind.......However they dont mention that when you get into your 50s, 60s etc, how much fun it is to work 14 hour work days and still have little retirement or benefits. Yes there are good jobs that will reward you financially, but most who work in this field are somewhat Nomadic and go from job to job at a variety of times.
30s is not old to start, but the limiting factor may be how long will it take you to build time for a hirable resume. Lots of folks out there with 4000+ hours looking for work...Companies know that and treat you accordingly.
On the other side of the coin, Im just past 60 with a retirement coming in from another life. I have no problem finding part time work. Employers like that as they dont have to pay benefits and I like it as I dont take work away from someone who needs it to live. I just fill in when someone needs a break.
One of my part time jobs just went to a guy who has seperate finances. He is working for FREE to build time, the company loves that. That really hurts the industry.

[Whirlybird]

When I was doing my CPL and instructor's rating, almost everybody I ran into was in their 30s, if not older. Most younger people don't have the money; they can't do it unless they've gone the military route or borrowed tens of thousands of pounds.

So the simple answer to your question is no, you're definitely not too old. But what B Sousa says is also true. Of those people I met, not all now have jobs in the industry, and even less are making a decent living - or probably ever will, unless things change.

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

mrgogetter:

The short answer is "No, you are not too old." But you didn't come here for the short answer, I suppose.

The reality is that you needn't worry about "job prospects" right now. The point at which you are employable is a long, long, long way off. Your first job as a civilian-trained commercial pilot will be as a flight instructor, for that is the only job are open to a freshly-certificated pilot. And those "job prospects" are pretty good. We always need new CFI's.

So how long will it realistically take you to get your CPL, your Instrument Rating, and your CFI? Maybe you'll be a ball of fire and get all the ratings in just over 300 hours. Time flies, no pun intended. Unless you plan on flying full-time (as in, no "real" job, just flying all the time to get your ratings), it's gonna take awhile. Figure two years, maybe three. And that is before you can even think about getting your first "job" as a pilot.

To be truly employable, you must amass somewhere around 1,000 hours of flight time. Employers generally want to see 1,000 hours of r/w PIC (pilot-in-command) time. So don't go thinking that you can spend 600 hours as a copilot somewhere and 250 hours flying yourself around in an R-22, log another 150 hours in puddle-jumping planks and then hop into a 206 as a command pilot doing charters or whatever. Remember, of that 600 hours you'll log as a copilot, what fraction of it is really PIC time? Alternatively, how long will it take you to log 600 hours of actual PIC time as a copilot? SIC time counts...not! in terms of your general employability. Anyway, there are so few helicopter copilot jobs out there that 'tis folly to think you will use that as a way to build flight time. Folly, I tell you!

In helicopters, there is a general pervasive feeling that a pilot is not truly competent until he has 1,000 hours. Whether true or not, this comes from the insurance companies, who've long required that magic number as the ticket to ride. You might be a whiz-bang, crackerjack pilot by 500 hours. Chomping at the bit, you know...you just know that you'd make a damn good charter/ENG/EMS/offshore/whatever pilot if somebody would just give you a chance!

Don't hold your breath.

So. After you've figured out how long it'll take you to get the CPL, IR and CFI, now we have to figure out how long it'll take you to work your way up to 1,000 hours. Perhaps you think that you'll dive in big time. You'll work 24-7 if need be. You'll do anything just to log stick time.

And you'll burn yourself out in short order. I've seen it happen. A young friend of mine came into this business from ground-zero, literally desperate to be an EMS helicopter pilot. He took crappy CFI jobs at a number of crappy operators flying crappy piston equipment. Nearly got himself killed a couple of times, but has an angel or something watching over him. He slept in hangars, in his pickup truck, showered at indulging FBO's...he flew early morning and late into the night, then early morning again. He never flew purely for "fun" anymore, it was work now, although it was sometimes fun.

In all the time I've known him, he's never had a girlfriend. Not because he's gay (at least, I don't think so), and not because he didn't want a significant other, but because involvement in this industry is not conducive to stable, steady relationships. Weirdly, women just can't compete when their guys lust after helicopters. (Hmm, maybe that's why there are so many gay helo pilots...)

By the time my friend had struggled to about 600 hours he was a basket case. And he is still not hireable by a turbine operator! He became very discouraged, for it seemed as though his "dream" job was just as far away as it ever was. In fact, he no longer saw EMS as his career goal. Last time I saw him, he'd begun to question why he got into this in the first place? I said, "Welcome to helicopters! What else is new? Let's go get drunk." And we did. You can always reason things out so much more clearly when you're drunk off your ass. Or so it seems. Hey, me and the bartender and a certain Mr. Jack Daniels have often solved all the world's problems in a single afternoon!

But I digress...

It is possible to have a career flying helicopters without going in the military. I did it. But I started at age 23. The head of the helicopter company I was working for told me it would probably take seven years. And it did. But that was a long time ago. And for that to happen, I had to have some MAJOR breaks along the way. I managed to get hired-on by the company in a non-flying capacity. That outfit had a flight school and some turbine aircraft that I could fly SIC in. I was very, very lucky and it shortened my time from wannabe to PIC considerably. But they were seven very long years. Long years. I lost my hair somewhere along the way (it was those David Clark headsets, I swear!). Oh yeah, and my youth.

So do your homework. Talk to other civilian pilots who've actually done it. Don't think that because one guy did it in some ridiculously short period of time that you'll be able to repeat it. Like I said, it didn't work that way for me. I don't mean to be discouraging - only realistic. Over the years (30+ now) I've seen plenty of starry-eyed guys come into this business, including my friend. You can do it if you stick with it, but do not think it'll be easy. It is a long road, fraught with difficulty and frustration.

Good luck to you!

[Ascend Charlie]

Will the REAL PPrune Fan please stand up? Is somebody else using his tag?

I ask this because i wish to applaud the above post, for being as coldly factual as it is possible to be. No false hope, no rosy glasses, that's the way it generally is.

I don't get much chance to agree with PPF1, but in the last couple of months, you have changed your posting style into a very entertaining read. Well done. Merry late Xmas, and a carton of beer.

For Mr Go-Getter, go getta good-paying job to provide the money so you can fly for pleasure - helicopter flying is the most fun you can have with your clothes on. But it is a mongrel to get a start in.

An employer (and I have been one) looks for somebody who will work hard to fill a position, and over the years, it seems to me that it has been the young ones who have the ability to apply themselves, whereas the older fellas have a little less drive. perhaps it is because they already have a wife and 2.3 kids and a mortgage and a permanent address.

But I am not talking about getting junior pilots to be virtual slaves, I am talking about learning the other aspects of a charter business, which involve telephone sales techniques, having people skills to deal with difficult pax, economic sense for quoting jobs, coping with being based away from home while on tasks, and learning to fly new types of helos.

If you decide to go for it, then as PPF1 says, go for it full time, or your determination might just get eaten away a bit further down the road.

[Red Wine]

I concur......she has been a rambling obnoxious prat, then writes something that is straight down the line.

Maybe it’s a New Year revelation!!!!

[Watchoutbelow]

Now now,

PPFN1 Is always right, its just now that there is no denying he is spot on,
That Speech Should be placed at the top of this board and given as an auto reply to anybody enquiring start up information.
Nothing more could really be added to that.

I am still waiting for that lucky break does not seem to be comming or in the pipeline.
Its a horrible thing, having to rely on luck.
Got a couple of years left before I hit 30 and if I dont have anything by then, will just have be realistic and really think about a job that will let me retire and live a semi comforatable lifestyle, don't want to retire broke!

Some people will say you can go from 0 to CFII in 9 months, (you would be doing very well) add another 11 months for JAA, then get a CFI job, Visa permitting, a couple of years living off pot Noodles and being treated like absoloute **** by employers.
Really gets you thinking.

If you are lucky enough to get a job with a large employer
(Don't count on it) expect to be laid off just before you retire!

Helicopter Flying is great but don't distort your view by aiming for Commercial level.

[Whirlybird]

I haven't been around long enough to be in any way an expert on the helicopter industry, but I do wonder if this isn't becoming a little bit one-sided. Also, mrgogetter lives in the UK, which could make a difference.

When I started helicopter training in 1999, people got a PPL, then did an instructor's rating, then after enough hours got a CPL, and usually a job on the North Sea. That seemed to be the route, and it seemed to work for many.

By a year later it all changed. You had to get a CPL first, BUT the oil companies were taking on pilots with new CPLs and less than 200 hours. Utopia!!! Yes, but only for a bit.

Along came 9/11, airline pilots lost their jobs, duel-qualified ones went back to the North Sea, who then demanded an IR before they'd look at you, and then...haven't been following it, but I think even with an IR you're not guaranteed a North Sea job any more. So new CPLs begged, borrowed, or stole more money, hourbuilt to get 300 hours and an FI(R)...so that now we have a surplus of FI(R)s...and I think a shortage of fully qualified QHIs, but that's no help to the new instructors who can't get work.

Now, that could all change, as quickly as it happened. I've no idea of the likelihood of that, but I doubt if anyone else knows either. Perhaps, again, there could be jobs on the North Sea. It's debatable whether they lead to much else, but when I went up there to visit a friend who's been working there for ten years, and see what I thought of the life (just before things all changed and they weren't taking anyone anyway ), some pilots had been there for years and loved it, while others were bored and told me not to bother. I guess it depends if landing on oil rigs for ever turns you on or not. To say nothing of living in Aberdeen!

Anyway, I realise this doesn't help anyone make a decision. But perhaps the situation is not always, everywhere, at every time, as black as others have made out.

[Camp Freddie]

I think many people look at the situation now and dont have the vision to see how it will change.

When I got onto the north sea in 2001, there was a big recruitment boom and although I did have 2000 hours or so I didnt have an IR, but the company stumped up because they needed people.

sure at the moment even with an IR you aint going to get in, but history suggests there will be another recruitment drive when something changes.

I think it is a problem if you dont have an IR and are over 40, one of the companys dont seem to keen on stumping up for that even when they are recruiting.

but for someone starting now, the situation is bound to have changed by the time you get there.

I guess you do need to factor the cost of an IR if you want a north sea Job. can you believe it a basic CPL now is about £40k i think an instructor rating including hourbuilding another £20k, and an IR £30k or so.

so Mr gogetter, the choice to me is how much do you want to do it ? you need to be totally commited and its just possible you might fail but ultimately most people get there. so do you feel lucky

CPL only = £40k foolish you are v.unlikely to get work
CPL + FI(R) = £60K low risk will get work for unexciting pay
CPL + IR(H) = £70K high risk may get work for high pay maybe