Air Ambulance in Wales
Roundagain - Sorry but "Changing to combined SAR/EMS operations" would make no more sense in this country than combining road ambulances with fire engines! Sure, there are loads of occasions when you require both at an incident but there are loads when only one or the other is required.
While I have always believed that there 'might' be a case for a small number (probably no more than three or four throughout the UK) of multi-role onshore helicopters -winch, stretcher, cutting gear,medic etc. for some remote areas, combining these into a HEMS helicopter would seriously curtail the role that they currently have. Firstly, according to current rules, for every 1 metre increase in helicopter length you inflict on us we have to find a landing space that is 2 metres larger diameter - so we have to land at a location more distant from the scene. Secondly, if you select your medium sized helicopter for us, and it is twice as heavy, then we are going to produce twice the downdraught -hence we have to find a landing site further away from everything.
The reason the Australian system works, I suspect, is that the distances involved make walking the Penine Way seem like a stroll to the local shops.
Regards
TeeS
While I have always believed that there 'might' be a case for a small number (probably no more than three or four throughout the UK) of multi-role onshore helicopters -winch, stretcher, cutting gear,medic etc. for some remote areas, combining these into a HEMS helicopter would seriously curtail the role that they currently have. Firstly, according to current rules, for every 1 metre increase in helicopter length you inflict on us we have to find a landing space that is 2 metres larger diameter - so we have to land at a location more distant from the scene. Secondly, if you select your medium sized helicopter for us, and it is twice as heavy, then we are going to produce twice the downdraught -hence we have to find a landing site further away from everything.
The reason the Australian system works, I suspect, is that the distances involved make walking the Penine Way seem like a stroll to the local shops.
Regards
TeeS
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I would suggest a new way of doing it.
Why don't we create what would effectively be a new armed force.
Basically we remove SAR from the RN/RAF. Remove the Air Ambulances from the CAA. Contract the whole thing to whoever wants to supply aircraft, engineers and aircrew.
The aircrew(as I am aircrew I'll concentrate on them) can then be made up of current serving mil pilopts, current serving civ pilots. They would all get paid the same.
the aircraft would be provided by a contractor and placed onto the miliary register(much like DHFS). This would then allow low flying, it would also not be necessary to worry about sizes of landing sites etc, as you can get away with more in the mil. NVG tasks could be done better.
training can be provided for ab-initio at DHFS/SARTU and then onto the new force for conversion for whatever type they go to fly, be it small Air Amb type things or larger SAR type things. Pilots/crews would have the flex to change between the various types and so on.
The whole shebang could be funded by DoT, MOD and charity so no-one would have to have a massive contribution. The best bit is that the new force could control it's spending and get what it wanted and not what the mil say.
Why don't we create what would effectively be a new armed force.
Basically we remove SAR from the RN/RAF. Remove the Air Ambulances from the CAA. Contract the whole thing to whoever wants to supply aircraft, engineers and aircrew.
The aircrew(as I am aircrew I'll concentrate on them) can then be made up of current serving mil pilopts, current serving civ pilots. They would all get paid the same.
the aircraft would be provided by a contractor and placed onto the miliary register(much like DHFS). This would then allow low flying, it would also not be necessary to worry about sizes of landing sites etc, as you can get away with more in the mil. NVG tasks could be done better.
training can be provided for ab-initio at DHFS/SARTU and then onto the new force for conversion for whatever type they go to fly, be it small Air Amb type things or larger SAR type things. Pilots/crews would have the flex to change between the various types and so on.
The whole shebang could be funded by DoT, MOD and charity so no-one would have to have a massive contribution. The best bit is that the new force could control it's spending and get what it wanted and not what the mil say.
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GG,
No not drinking but just tired of seeing what was once an excellent SAR Force being run down by MOD?Government and I am convinced that if you let it be run by the people who are in it we couldn't do a worse job.
And if you brought in the Air Ambulance then they could all get properly funded, proper SOPs could be worked out between us all and we would end being able to provide a better cover for the people who actually need it.
Hopefully it would prevent situations such as i once saw at Chivenor, where the Exeter Air Ambualnce flew to chivenor Airfield to pick up a woman who had broken her leg nearly 1 mile from the SAR Flight and take her to Barnstable hospital and then come into the SAR Flight for fuel before returning to Exeter. Absolutely ludicrous, wouldn't you agree?
No not drinking but just tired of seeing what was once an excellent SAR Force being run down by MOD?Government and I am convinced that if you let it be run by the people who are in it we couldn't do a worse job.
And if you brought in the Air Ambulance then they could all get properly funded, proper SOPs could be worked out between us all and we would end being able to provide a better cover for the people who actually need it.
Hopefully it would prevent situations such as i once saw at Chivenor, where the Exeter Air Ambualnce flew to chivenor Airfield to pick up a woman who had broken her leg nearly 1 mile from the SAR Flight and take her to Barnstable hospital and then come into the SAR Flight for fuel before returning to Exeter. Absolutely ludicrous, wouldn't you agree?
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North Wales to get an air ambulance
WALES' second air ambulance is set to take off next summer.
Yesterday, the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust gave its support for a dedicated air ambulance service in North Wales.
A fundraising appeal is to be launched early next year, as each helicopter will cost £1m a year to operate.
The North Wales police helicopter, with a paramedic on board, has often been used to airlift casualties to hospital, but its use is restricted to life-saving missions. It can't be used for other purposes such as hospital transfers.
The first Welsh air ambulance, in South Wales, has flown nearly 800 missions since it began operating in March last year. Fundraising for that service has been so successful that seven-day cover is now provided. A charitable trust has raised £986,000 and there's enough cash to ensure the helicopter remains airborne for at least another six months.
Chief ambulance officer John Bottell, chairman of the charity, said the air ambulance service in South Wales had flown nearly four times as many mercy missions as the police helicopter used to.
Don Page, chief executive of the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust, said the North Wales Police Authority had questioned the force's Chief Constable, Richard Brunstrom, about the cost of ambulance work by the force's helicopter.
Asked whether there was a need for the second air ambulance, Mr Bottell said, "A thousand people have benefited from much quicker access to hospital facilities. Clearly that will not have done them any harm."
Well said, that man!
Yesterday, the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust gave its support for a dedicated air ambulance service in North Wales.
A fundraising appeal is to be launched early next year, as each helicopter will cost £1m a year to operate.
The North Wales police helicopter, with a paramedic on board, has often been used to airlift casualties to hospital, but its use is restricted to life-saving missions. It can't be used for other purposes such as hospital transfers.
The first Welsh air ambulance, in South Wales, has flown nearly 800 missions since it began operating in March last year. Fundraising for that service has been so successful that seven-day cover is now provided. A charitable trust has raised £986,000 and there's enough cash to ensure the helicopter remains airborne for at least another six months.
Chief ambulance officer John Bottell, chairman of the charity, said the air ambulance service in South Wales had flown nearly four times as many mercy missions as the police helicopter used to.
Don Page, chief executive of the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust, said the North Wales Police Authority had questioned the force's Chief Constable, Richard Brunstrom, about the cost of ambulance work by the force's helicopter.
Asked whether there was a need for the second air ambulance, Mr Bottell said, "A thousand people have benefited from much quicker access to hospital facilities. Clearly that will not have done them any harm."
Well said, that man!
But when it gets dark or the weather is sh**e, or when you need to transport someone who needs ICU style care in the air...Whoyagonnacall.........Oh yes, a nice yellow Sea King which is already paid for by the taxpayer and frequently gets pushed to the bottom of the callout list by ambulance authorities desperate to improve the callout stats on the air ambulance. The Exeter air ambulance takes 25 mins to reach N Devon but is regularly tasked to jobs in the Bideford area just 5 mins from Chivenor. If the patients need is so urgent then use the nearest asset, if it is not then use a land ambulance.
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Of course there are a lot more people in S Wales than N Wales, which might just mean that there is more demand for air ambulance flights in S Wales. I have seen gross misuse of charitably funded air ambulances by some Ambulance Service Management, so I am very suspicious of simple measures such as the one quoted in the original post. It does no harm to have a critical method of selecting suitable jobs for air ambulances.
I love the way that in life while one part of a group are trying to separate out a perfectly sensible joint use of resources(e.g. Emergency Service Helicopters in N Wales), another bit of essentially the same community are busily being forced to work together (Emergency Services Control Rooms to be combined) against their will.
........ And then in 5 years time someone will have a bright idea to save money in N Wales by combining the air ambulance and police helicopters into one aircraft to make best use of expensive resources.....
Aren't politicians wonderful!
I love the way that in life while one part of a group are trying to separate out a perfectly sensible joint use of resources(e.g. Emergency Service Helicopters in N Wales), another bit of essentially the same community are busily being forced to work together (Emergency Services Control Rooms to be combined) against their will.
........ And then in 5 years time someone will have a bright idea to save money in N Wales by combining the air ambulance and police helicopters into one aircraft to make best use of expensive resources.....
Aren't politicians wonderful!
Last edited by Helinut; 28th Nov 2002 at 22:46.
Have just seen this..the plot thickens, it seems.
The driving for all of this is from the air ambulance authority/health authority. I wish them well obviously, but seriously doubt their understanding of long term support. Methinks it's more a case of PR perhaps?
What worries me is the situation N Wales are left with if this operation runs out of funds say 12-18 months after it starts and shuts down...what then???
Helinut says it all really
The driving for all of this is from the air ambulance authority/health authority. I wish them well obviously, but seriously doubt their understanding of long term support. Methinks it's more a case of PR perhaps?
What worries me is the situation N Wales are left with if this operation runs out of funds say 12-18 months after it starts and shuts down...what then???
Helinut says it all really
It is doubtful that TC and friends can be thinking of hanging up their rescue ideas for some time yet.
The South Wales HEMS has barely got itself out of crisis over funding the first aircraft [if indeed it has!]
The South Wales HEMS has barely got itself out of crisis over funding the first aircraft [if indeed it has!]
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There are advantages for an Air Amb Charity if they share with the police and operate under a police AOC HEMS approval. For a start they get two shifts a day, 7 days a week at a fraction of the cost of even a 5 day single shift dedicated Air Amb unit.It's also a more economic use of the airframe.
As far as I'm aware the only people doing regular night HEMS in UK are the joint units. On the down side they lose the ability to do Air Ambulance work (Inter hospital transfers).
With regard to the number of tasks carried out by Air Ambs when compared to joint units, other than transfers already mentioned I think the difference lies in the way the units are used. Air Ambs seem to often go to jobs that could be dealt with by a conventional ground unit whilst the joint units tend to cherry pick the jobs where the use of a helo will really make a difference.
As an aside, as I understand it when the new Public Services AOC is introduced both police HEMS units and Air Amb units will be working to the same rules and approvals so both will be able to do everything.
As far as I'm aware the only people doing regular night HEMS in UK are the joint units. On the down side they lose the ability to do Air Ambulance work (Inter hospital transfers).
With regard to the number of tasks carried out by Air Ambs when compared to joint units, other than transfers already mentioned I think the difference lies in the way the units are used. Air Ambs seem to often go to jobs that could be dealt with by a conventional ground unit whilst the joint units tend to cherry pick the jobs where the use of a helo will really make a difference.
As an aside, as I understand it when the new Public Services AOC is introduced both police HEMS units and Air Amb units will be working to the same rules and approvals so both will be able to do everything.
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Bearintheair,
I think you are right about the dual use helicopter, especially in ruralish low population density areas. I have never worked in a "pure" HEMS role, but observing what they have done, sometimes the helicopter is used to do things that arguably would be better done by a ground ambulance. An important consideration is to get deployment criteria right; it is wrong to waste money and resources whoever is paying and however much we like to fly. At the same time, it needs to be a reasonable foresight approach rather than the usual hindsight test so often beloved of critics. You can only make a decision on the basis of the information you have.
One reason why PAOC involvement in HEMS is beneficial at present is because of the ability of PAOC holders to do CASEVACs. For those not familiar, the PAOC conditions allow a police helicopter to land at ad hoc sites at night where there is a genuine threat to life to pick up an injured person for delivery to hospital. (Non-police HEMS has to obey the normal UK public transport rules that prohibit landing at unsurveyed unlit sites at night). This is possible because of the rule difference; it is also more sensible and safer because the police helicopter can use its TI, nightsun and NVG to allow its "passengers" to help to check the site for the pilot.
I have not begun to look at the proposals for the Public Service AOC yet. I just hope it is not like most other new regulations in the European arena : more regulation allowing us to do less and less at significantly greater cost.
I think you are right about the dual use helicopter, especially in ruralish low population density areas. I have never worked in a "pure" HEMS role, but observing what they have done, sometimes the helicopter is used to do things that arguably would be better done by a ground ambulance. An important consideration is to get deployment criteria right; it is wrong to waste money and resources whoever is paying and however much we like to fly. At the same time, it needs to be a reasonable foresight approach rather than the usual hindsight test so often beloved of critics. You can only make a decision on the basis of the information you have.
One reason why PAOC involvement in HEMS is beneficial at present is because of the ability of PAOC holders to do CASEVACs. For those not familiar, the PAOC conditions allow a police helicopter to land at ad hoc sites at night where there is a genuine threat to life to pick up an injured person for delivery to hospital. (Non-police HEMS has to obey the normal UK public transport rules that prohibit landing at unsurveyed unlit sites at night). This is possible because of the rule difference; it is also more sensible and safer because the police helicopter can use its TI, nightsun and NVG to allow its "passengers" to help to check the site for the pilot.
I have not begun to look at the proposals for the Public Service AOC yet. I just hope it is not like most other new regulations in the European arena : more regulation allowing us to do less and less at significantly greater cost.
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Just for info there are 3 PAOC units (NWales, Wilts, Sussex) that hold a HEMS approval and are permitted to carry out full day/night single pilot HEMS as long as they operate iaw the PAOM HEMS Supplement. The supplement is basically a copy of the JAROPS 3 HEMS rules.
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before very long, there is going to be another catastrophe. How can the UK bang on about having no cash, when there is such poor coordination of multi million pound assets. It would make more sense if everything came under a central coordination cell.
Additionally, I think some of it is the sexification of the ambulance service. I wonder if anyone else remembers in the mid 90s, when they went from being ambulance drivers to paramedics? Out came the green overalls and sexy batenburg ambulances. You never saw them before that, but suddenly they became demi gods.
Paramedics are tremendous and do not get paid half their worth, but the NHS and ambulance services seem to be too busy looking good, and failing on the basics. HEMS and its benefits are extremely worthwhile (look how many TT riders have benefitted) but perhaps we should be running after learning to walk.
Does anyone remember the fire service trialling a Bolkow in London? Now that WAS a case of too busy looking good!!!
Additionally, I think some of it is the sexification of the ambulance service. I wonder if anyone else remembers in the mid 90s, when they went from being ambulance drivers to paramedics? Out came the green overalls and sexy batenburg ambulances. You never saw them before that, but suddenly they became demi gods.
Paramedics are tremendous and do not get paid half their worth, but the NHS and ambulance services seem to be too busy looking good, and failing on the basics. HEMS and its benefits are extremely worthwhile (look how many TT riders have benefitted) but perhaps we should be running after learning to walk.
Does anyone remember the fire service trialling a Bolkow in London? Now that WAS a case of too busy looking good!!!
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Info on the London Fire Service helicopter can be found here.
http://www.jmccall.demon.co.uk/helitril.htm
http://www.jmccall.demon.co.uk/helitril.htm
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Appeal for second Wales air ambulance
Helicopters can be the difference between life and death
An appeal has begun to finance a second air ambulance for Wales to cover the north of the country. The Welsh Air Ambulance Charity needs to raise £750,000 a year to fund the emergency service.
If £250,000 can be raised by July, a second air ambulance could come into operation in time for the busy summer season.
The first Wales Air Ambulance, which is based at Swansea's Fairwood Airport, was launched on 1 March 2001.
It has already flown more than 800 missions, mainly in south and mid Wales, and has helped more than 400 seriously ill or injured people.
The new project has won the backing of the mother and fiancée of a 26-year-old man killed in a car crash near Harlech in Gwynedd last year.
Kieron Wilkes died at the site of the accident, which was 50 miles away from Ysbyty Gwynedd in Bangor.
His fiancée Nia Evans was taken to the hospital with severe spinal injuries by police helicopter.
Since the tragedy, Kieron's mum Sandra and his home community of Llanaber have raised £22,500 to get the appeal under way.
"The nearest hospital to us is Bangor, which is an hour away by road in the winter and two hours in the summer when the amount of traffic multiplies tenfold," she said.
Chief ambulance officer for the Welsh Ambulance NHS Trust John Bottell said a second helicopter would provide an even better life-saving service for Wales. "It has always been our aim to have two air ambulances responding to emergency calls across the country," he said. "We know there is huge support from the public and we will do our best to ensure the new service will be as successful as the current Wales air ambulance," he added.
An appeal has begun to finance a second air ambulance for Wales to cover the north of the country. The Welsh Air Ambulance Charity needs to raise £750,000 a year to fund the emergency service.
If £250,000 can be raised by July, a second air ambulance could come into operation in time for the busy summer season.
The first Wales Air Ambulance, which is based at Swansea's Fairwood Airport, was launched on 1 March 2001.
It has already flown more than 800 missions, mainly in south and mid Wales, and has helped more than 400 seriously ill or injured people.
The new project has won the backing of the mother and fiancée of a 26-year-old man killed in a car crash near Harlech in Gwynedd last year.
Kieron Wilkes died at the site of the accident, which was 50 miles away from Ysbyty Gwynedd in Bangor.
His fiancée Nia Evans was taken to the hospital with severe spinal injuries by police helicopter.
Since the tragedy, Kieron's mum Sandra and his home community of Llanaber have raised £22,500 to get the appeal under way.
"The nearest hospital to us is Bangor, which is an hour away by road in the winter and two hours in the summer when the amount of traffic multiplies tenfold," she said.
Chief ambulance officer for the Welsh Ambulance NHS Trust John Bottell said a second helicopter would provide an even better life-saving service for Wales. "It has always been our aim to have two air ambulances responding to emergency calls across the country," he said. "We know there is huge support from the public and we will do our best to ensure the new service will be as successful as the current Wales air ambulance," he added.
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This was raised and discussed in a thread a few weeks ago. I don't think my views have changed much. If an air ambulance here is such a good idea, why don't the ambulance service fund the thing themselves on a properly funded basis, rather than relying on charity??
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Letsby
I don't think anybody has suggested a second air ambulance could have helped the man; he died at the scene.
The appeal, launched by the Welsh Air Ambulance Charity, has the support of the bereaved mother and surviving fiancee in a positive, not negative, spirit. ie In gratitude that she was transferred by helicopter instead of a 50 mile journey by road through mountainous terrain whilst suffering from spinal injuries - a journey which takes up to two hours depending upon season.
"How come our ‘Super Moderator’ has posted this appeal?"
I didn't post is as an appeal for contributions, but as a news item which I thought would be of interest to rotorheads. Sorry it "sounds like B*ll***s" to you. It obviously doesn't to many people in North Wales. The existing air ambulance, based at Swansea, covers South and Mid Wales. North Wales relies on the police helicopter.
(As for 'Super Moderator' - just Mod will do thanks. The title, which I didn't choose and dislike, refers to Mods with responsibilities to oversee all PPRuNe forums. I chose to stay on as a Mod of Rotorheads because I like this forum.)
Helinut
I agree, but suspect the Welsh Ambulance Service hasn't got the funds available in the budget they're given. The Welsh Air Ambulance Charity was set up by volunteers. Shame such efforts are necessary when we see how much public money and lottery funds are wasted on other things.
I don't think anybody has suggested a second air ambulance could have helped the man; he died at the scene.
The appeal, launched by the Welsh Air Ambulance Charity, has the support of the bereaved mother and surviving fiancee in a positive, not negative, spirit. ie In gratitude that she was transferred by helicopter instead of a 50 mile journey by road through mountainous terrain whilst suffering from spinal injuries - a journey which takes up to two hours depending upon season.
"How come our ‘Super Moderator’ has posted this appeal?"
I didn't post is as an appeal for contributions, but as a news item which I thought would be of interest to rotorheads. Sorry it "sounds like B*ll***s" to you. It obviously doesn't to many people in North Wales. The existing air ambulance, based at Swansea, covers South and Mid Wales. North Wales relies on the police helicopter.
(As for 'Super Moderator' - just Mod will do thanks. The title, which I didn't choose and dislike, refers to Mods with responsibilities to oversee all PPRuNe forums. I chose to stay on as a Mod of Rotorheads because I like this forum.)
Helinut
I agree, but suspect the Welsh Ambulance Service hasn't got the funds available in the budget they're given. The Welsh Air Ambulance Charity was set up by volunteers. Shame such efforts are necessary when we see how much public money and lottery funds are wasted on other things.
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You would have thought
Yes the country that built railways
Introduced safe navigation, courtesy of Harrison and his clocks.
Brunel.
Built a ship, disassembled said vessel; transported it to South America, in parts small enough to be carried by mules. Rebuilt it 7000 feet above sea level.
Could organise.A nationwide air ambulance service.
Get their act together, they couldn't paint the scenery.
To much paperwork not enough action.
Whisky does not counteract disappointment
Introduced safe navigation, courtesy of Harrison and his clocks.
Brunel.
Built a ship, disassembled said vessel; transported it to South America, in parts small enough to be carried by mules. Rebuilt it 7000 feet above sea level.
Could organise.A nationwide air ambulance service.
Get their act together, they couldn't paint the scenery.
To much paperwork not enough action.
Whisky does not counteract disappointment
