Minimum rest-time in a hotel (Europe)
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Minimum rest-time in a hotel (Europe)
Hope someone can help out with this.
I start a flight from the US at 20:30 US local (06;30) Z land in Europe and the position to another European city (scheduled to arrive at the hotel at 21:50 Z
Total duty time of 15:20
I am then scheduled for a hotel pick up of 11:45 the day after I land for another Europe to US flight.
15:20 added to 21:50 would be a 12:10 report (my actual report time at the airport is 12:15)...so......
What is the actual minimum time I need to spend in the hotel (I heard somewhere they can reduce your rest by one hour....is that with your permission)?
Also if it makes any difference .....we are an augmented crew of three.
Thank in advance.
I start a flight from the US at 20:30 US local (06;30) Z land in Europe and the position to another European city (scheduled to arrive at the hotel at 21:50 Z
Total duty time of 15:20
I am then scheduled for a hotel pick up of 11:45 the day after I land for another Europe to US flight.
15:20 added to 21:50 would be a 12:10 report (my actual report time at the airport is 12:15)...so......
What is the actual minimum time I need to spend in the hotel (I heard somewhere they can reduce your rest by one hour....is that with your permission)?
Also if it makes any difference .....we are an augmented crew of three.
Thank in advance.
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Under which rules are you flying? There is quite a difference between the US rules, EU OPS (still valid in most EU countries) and EASA OPS (some have already adopted it, the rest follows next year).
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One thing is the "rules," but I am seeing a few minutes in difference. Rest time should be minimum the previous duty time is what I am reading from your question, right?
Are you going to make an issue over that, when 15 hours rest will have you ready for the next flight? "They" overworking you again?
Let me ask something else……. Were you off a week before the flights? All rested up and in the local time zone? Are you then settling into a resort for 3-4 days after getting back to US?
Or are "they" running you ragged?
I would consider the totality rather than 20 minutes difference in your calculations to make a point with "them."
But just a few random thoughts when reading your question.
Are you going to make an issue over that, when 15 hours rest will have you ready for the next flight? "They" overworking you again?
Let me ask something else……. Were you off a week before the flights? All rested up and in the local time zone? Are you then settling into a resort for 3-4 days after getting back to US?
Or are "they" running you ragged?
I would consider the totality rather than 20 minutes difference in your calculations to make a point with "them."
But just a few random thoughts when reading your question.
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http://www.pprune.org/medical-health...class-one.html
You say you are 17 on the above post. Are you cabin crew?
You say you are 17 on the above post. Are you cabin crew?
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Ferry pilot, no not had a week off. It is my licence though.....and if I launch having broken a FTL then that is put in jepody. Once you start accepting a few minutes here where do you stop...how about an hour...is that OK with you?
Shouldn't you, as a Professional pilot, be able to work out your duty hours requirements yourself?
And, NO, of course you can't and mustn't accept rostering 20, even 2 minutes inside the minima.
And, NO, of course you can't and mustn't accept rostering 20, even 2 minutes inside the minima.
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Augmented crews in itself do not reduce the required rest time, they simply enable a longer flight duty time depending on the class of the inflight rest facility.
However, according to EASA FTL the travelling time between airport and hotel and back is not part of positioning and therefore duty, it can count into rest time (ORO.FTL.105 (18)).
And yes, EASA FTL has provisions for a reduced rest time as well (ORO.FTL.235 c)), however the certification specifications require a FRMS (fatigue risk management system), see CS.FTL.1.235 c). The minimum rest period for reduced rest out of base is 10 hours, the following FDP is reduced by the difference between reduced rest and full rest and the next rest period is extended by the same difference.
ORO.FTL.235 (rest times) lit b) specifies that one needs, for an out of base rest time, at least 10 hours of rest or the duration of the preceding duty period, whichever is greater. Included must be the opportunity for 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep plus the time for physiological needs and travelling.
The acceptable means of compliance (AMC1 ORO.FTL.235(b)(3)) define the minimum rest period away from home base further by stating that the time for physiological needs is one hour and the travelling time to the hotel of more than 30 minutes (one way) increases the rest time by twice the time over 30 minutes.
Both certification specifications and acceptable means of compliance are considered soft law and may be handled differently by your airline if they have scientifically proven that their own FTL specifications, which may differ completely, assure at least the same level of safety than the soft law to EASA FTL.
And all that doesn't take time zone differences to your acclimatized time into consideration, that would make it even more complicated.
All in all the EASA FTL are a huge step into a world where each operator has its own set of FTL specifications and there is no general rule anymore.
However, according to EASA FTL the travelling time between airport and hotel and back is not part of positioning and therefore duty, it can count into rest time (ORO.FTL.105 (18)).
And yes, EASA FTL has provisions for a reduced rest time as well (ORO.FTL.235 c)), however the certification specifications require a FRMS (fatigue risk management system), see CS.FTL.1.235 c). The minimum rest period for reduced rest out of base is 10 hours, the following FDP is reduced by the difference between reduced rest and full rest and the next rest period is extended by the same difference.
ORO.FTL.235 (rest times) lit b) specifies that one needs, for an out of base rest time, at least 10 hours of rest or the duration of the preceding duty period, whichever is greater. Included must be the opportunity for 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep plus the time for physiological needs and travelling.
The acceptable means of compliance (AMC1 ORO.FTL.235(b)(3)) define the minimum rest period away from home base further by stating that the time for physiological needs is one hour and the travelling time to the hotel of more than 30 minutes (one way) increases the rest time by twice the time over 30 minutes.
Both certification specifications and acceptable means of compliance are considered soft law and may be handled differently by your airline if they have scientifically proven that their own FTL specifications, which may differ completely, assure at least the same level of safety than the soft law to EASA FTL.
And all that doesn't take time zone differences to your acclimatized time into consideration, that would make it even more complicated.
All in all the EASA FTL are a huge step into a world where each operator has its own set of FTL specifications and there is no general rule anymore.
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RMC
The issue is your quoting time at the Hotel in your figures. If you arrive on a pax flight does your Part A have an off duty time in it e.g. STA + 15 mins.
The required rest is the same as duty length. As denti states Airlines with approved FRM have the ability to reduce rest but this has to be on a pre-defined basis e.g. seasonal. At the very minimum rest should be on duty in XXX to the ATA on the pax flight in AAA
Does that make sense?
The issue is your quoting time at the Hotel in your figures. If you arrive on a pax flight does your Part A have an off duty time in it e.g. STA + 15 mins.
The required rest is the same as duty length. As denti states Airlines with approved FRM have the ability to reduce rest but this has to be on a pre-defined basis e.g. seasonal. At the very minimum rest should be on duty in XXX to the ATA on the pax flight in AAA
Does that make sense?
Last edited by Twiglet1; 24th Nov 2015 at 16:35. Reason: correction
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I am then scheduled for a hotel pick up of 11:45 the day after I land for another Europe to US flight.
15:20 added to 21:50 would be a 12:10 report (my actual report time at the airport is 12:15)...so......
15:20 added to 21:50 would be a 12:10 report (my actual report time at the airport is 12:15)...so......
Not exactly clever though, 5 minutes over scheduled on day 1 leads to a 10 minute delay on day 2, 1 hour on day 1 = 2 hours on day 2 etc.
