Wx minima prior to ETOPS entry - has this happened to you

[RMC]

Should not need to be asking this question but can anyone point me to the ICAO/JAA requirements for this.

My current and previous companies all taught that the designated ETOPs alternates had to have at least ACTUAL minima or an another alternate with acceptable minima is found....a/c re-routes or diverts.

Unfortunately my companies Operating Manuals have been written by non native English speakers....are being read by mainly non native English speakers which is leading to "grey areas" where there should be none.

I realise that the chances of this happening (with dispatch planning minima being so high) are slim....but would be interested to know if anyone has ever been in this situation and had to divert/reroute?

[de facto]

Once you release the parking brake,ETOPS minima are not applicable anymore.
Try getting to grip with etops,there is a tonne of info on the WWW.
Your CAA website may also provide guidance on the subject or at least links.

[RMC]

Hi Defacto...I understand ETOPS minima are not applicable once you release the parking brake....my question is once you are in the air....approaching EEP and you find the weather at your nominated ETOPs alternate is below ACTUAL minima...say 200 Mtrs RVR for a cat one runway.
In this case you cannot use that ERA...so would have to find another that was within En route minima limits, reroute or divert is the confirmation I am looking for.

[foxmoth]

It really comes down to Captains judgement, are there other available airfields, is the deteriation in wx only temporary etc.

[RMC]

So the scenario is widespread fog....no other alternates available with ACTUAL planning minima. This may be a rare situation in reality...but my colleague was convinced that weather did not even need to be checked prior to EEP as weather was irrelevant once you had pushed back.

[320goat]

Your colleague is wrong as far as I understand it. We have to check weather prior to EEP, if your current ERA is unsuitable (using actual landing minima) then you must find another and recalculate ETP. If you have no airfields that are suitable then you either turn back or reroute and probably divert for splash and dash.

Regards

[RMC]

320 ...My understanding exactly......anyone have any idea which document this is derived from (ICAO / JAA)?

[320goat]

That is in our PartA. As for the document they take that from, I would have to start trawling the Internet.

Regards

[de facto]

RMC,correct..please download "getting to grips with Etops",check page 176.

[RMC]

DE FACTO....EXCELLENT Will try and find the Airworthiness ref documents which define this.

" Weather update

− before ETOPS Entry Point:
With the support of flight watch or by their own means, the crew must
make every effort to obtain weather forecasts and reports for ETOPS enroute
alternates.

Weather forecasts at the estimated time of arrival at the en-route
alternate airports must be higher than the normal minima.
NOTE:The ETOPS dispatch minima do not apply when airborne.
If weather forecasts are lower than the normal crew minima, then rerouting
is required, or turn back if no route at the authorized distance
from an en-route alternate airport can be used.


− after ETOPS Entry Point:
The crew should continue to update the weather forecasts and reports
for en-route alternates. There is no requirement to modify the normal
course of the flight if the weather degrades below normal minima.
As for a normal flight, the crew must make every effort to keep
themselves informed on the weather at the destination and the
destination alternate.

I believe it is the second area (after ETOPS entry point) where people are getting confused.

[Derfred]

To summarise RMC, every effort must be made to obtain a wx update for ETOPS alterates after takeoff and prior to EEP - and if no good must be acted upon. That is all that is mandated. The rest is only recommended. IMHO.

[c100driver]

The joy's of plain english rules. My Bolding

Prior to EDTO entry point at least above landing minima or re-plan another airport, return home or divert.
After EDTO entry point use safest course of action.

Here is the New Zealand CAA rules covering EDTO after dispatch.

121.973 EDTO en-route
(a) A holder of an air operator certificate who is authorised in accordance with this Subpart to conduct an EDTO must ensure that the pilot-in-command of an aeroplane conducting an EDTO under the authority of the certificate is notified of any significant change in the conditions at any en-route EDTO alternate aerodrome listed in the dispatch release for the flight—
(1) before the aeroplane proceeds beyond the EDTO entry point: and 

(2) after the aeroplane has proceeded beyond the EDTO entry point. 


(b) If the pilot-in-command of an aeroplane performing an EDTO is notified of a significant change in the conditions at an en-route EDTO alternate aerodrome listed in the dispatch release before the aeroplane proceeds beyond the EDTO entry point, the pilot-in-command must ensure that—
(1) the change in the conditions at the aerodrome are evaluated; and 

(2) if any change in the conditions at the aerodrome may preclude a safe approach and landing at the aerodrome during the possible period of use referred to in paragraph (c)(1), an alternative and suitable en-route EDTO alternate aerodrome is selected where a safe approach and landing can be made. 


(c)
not proceed beyond the EDTO entry point unless, for each en-route EDTO alternate aerodrome listed in the dispatch release for the flight or selected under paragraph (b)(2),—

The pilot-in-command of an aeroplane performing an EDTO must
(1) the meteorological forecast for the aerodrome indicates that the meteorological conditions will be at or above the published aerodrome landing minima for the expected approach during the period of possible use; and 

(2) the aerodrome qualifies as an en-route EDTO alternate aerodrome. 


(d)
ensure that the aeroplane complies with the in-flight operational requirements of the CMP standards for an EDTO.
The pilot-in-command of an aeroplane performing an EDTO must

(e) If the pilot-in-command of an aeroplane performing an EDTO is advised of a significant change in the conditions at an en-route EDTO alternate aerodrome listed in the dispatch release after the aeroplane has proceeded beyond the EDTO entry point, and the change in conditions makes the aerodrome no longer usable as an en-route EDTO alternate aerodrome, the pilot-in-command may only continue the flight if the pilot- in-command is satisfied that doing so would be safer than an alternative course of action.

(f) For the purpose of paragraphs (a), (b) and (e), a significant change in the conditions at an en-route EDTO alternate aerodrome includes:
(i) a change in the meteorological aerodrome forecast for the aerodrome that indicates that the weather conditions at the time of expected use will be below the landing minima for the aerodrome:
(ii) a change in the condition of the aerodrome or services at the aerodrome that makes the aerodrome unsuitable as an EDTO alternate aerodrome.