Transferred to the wide body. Line training, and bummed out by "priority left"
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Transferred to the wide body. Line training, and bummed out by "priority left"
Hey guys.
I have been flying the Airbus 320 for the past two years. Lovely airplane, and I have learned quite a lot.
Recently transferred to the 330, and today on my second sector, the instructor took over.
I started a gradual flare at 40, and at around 20 he took over.
I honestly though I was doing okay, but he claims that my ROD was still quite high..
Looking for some input, feedback, helpful techniques, etc.
A lot of my colleagues suggest and also did this when they had transferred to the wide body. Start with a gentle check to break the ROD at around 40 feet to about 300/400 fpm. And then finally flare later at 20 feet.
Any input is appreciated really.
Thank you guys in advance.
I have been flying the Airbus 320 for the past two years. Lovely airplane, and I have learned quite a lot.
Recently transferred to the 330, and today on my second sector, the instructor took over.
I started a gradual flare at 40, and at around 20 he took over.
I honestly though I was doing okay, but he claims that my ROD was still quite high..
Looking for some input, feedback, helpful techniques, etc.
A lot of my colleagues suggest and also did this when they had transferred to the wide body. Start with a gentle check to break the ROD at around 40 feet to about 300/400 fpm. And then finally flare later at 20 feet.
Any input is appreciated really.
Thank you guys in advance.
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Think you better talk a bit to your line trainer. He knows how to land.
He probably did not want to smash the plane on the tarmac.
You publishing this and seeking comfort in a few lines how to put down a 200 tonne plus airliner proves there is a lot to learn.
Two years flying the 320 does not give you "a lot" of experience.
He probably did not want to smash the plane on the tarmac.
You publishing this and seeking comfort in a few lines how to put down a 200 tonne plus airliner proves there is a lot to learn.
Two years flying the 320 does not give you "a lot" of experience.
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Having flown both for a while, obviously the flare has to take place earlier on the big one. The aircraft are quite different and just doing what you did in a 320 won't work. I detect a slight air of aggrievement which isn't necessaril justified.
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What exactly does one mean by the term 'bummed out'?! Curious. Was the other chap aware that you were 'bummed out'.....does one need to see the doctor afterward?
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I suspect that if you were on a standard 3 degree glide with a usual ROD of something like 700fpm and flared at 40ft then anyone in their right mind would be taking over as the 330 would be chewing up runway like there is no tomorrow. Fine if you are landing on a space shuttle recovery runway but not in most civilian airports.
As previous posters, ask the TRE if in doubt and read your fctm.
As previous posters, ask the TRE if in doubt and read your fctm.
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WHAT YOU SEE OUT THE WINDOW
There is nothing wrong with asking others here for some feedback.I have been an instructor on big jets for a long time and it never ceases to amaze me how many "students" havent read the FCTM to give them some guidance on landing technique.You will always, regardless of type, be given a RADIO ALTITUDE where the flare should begin.However you need to back up a bit, and I find this is something that seems to be often forgotten, you are generally focusing your eyes on the aiming point especially below 500 agl.However when the runway passes under the nose, about the 50 foot radio call-out, you must look down to towards the runway end.This gives you a much better understanding of whats happening to the pitch attitude and you can "see" if the airplane is still descending too fast quite easily (pull back a bit more, but not too much).Of course the truth is that the whole flare/landing phase is actually quite complex with any many factors at work all at the same time, but the FCTM methodology is a good starting point until you have some decent time on type to cope with all the factors at work.Pete the Pirate.
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This forum continuously breeds skygods with passive-aggressive sticks up their ar*es. Out of 6 replies, every single one (except one) makes no attempt to answer the OP's original question, which was very humbly asked. Instead they go out of their way to scold him in every way they can think of.
Embarrasing bunch of airmen. Answer the mans question, share your experience, or don't bother to answer at all. Your FSX sim is waiting.
Embarrasing bunch of airmen. Answer the mans question, share your experience, or don't bother to answer at all. Your FSX sim is waiting.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 25th Jun 2015 at 04:02.
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I agree with you Adam. There are several reasons why a professional pilot might seek additional advice via a professional forum, and it's unfortunate to see them flamed as a result.
WST,
I wasn't there during your flight, so I don't know what your specific problem was, if any. I assume you had a debrief. However, here are my thoughts on landing the A330, concentrating on the main A320/A330 differences. Forgive me if I teach you to suck eggs. I'll use a 'standard' ILS in good weather as a starting point.
Assuming that I'm on a stable 3-degree glide path, I start a smooth and continuous flare about one potato after hearing the 40ft call-out. Assuming I'm on speed, I select idle thrust a potato after starting the flare, aiming to have the thrust levers at idle just before touch down.
As mentioned above, look deep down the runway for sink rate cues, but...
Now the gotchas!
Like any long-body, a last-second attempt to salvage a high sink rate in the flare may make things worse. Raising the nose will generate a higher AoA and thus more lift, but the aircraft has more inertia than a 320 and you are unlikely to see a significant reduction in the sink rate of the aircraft before touchdown. However, the aircraft will rotate nose-up around its cg, which is forward of the main wheels. Therefore, you may actually push the main gear down onto the runway, giving a heavier landing than might otherwise have occurred.
So what's the answer? Enter the flare from a consistent 'gate', crossing the threshold at the right height (50ft) on the correct glide slope. This will greatly reduce the likelihood of needing to make emergency corrections in the flare itself. To achieve this gate, you need accurate glide path tracking down to that point and this is another point of difference to the 320.
The A330 does not reward 'high-gain' active stick inputs for glide path tracking. Constant high-frequency pushing and pulling on the stick gives the horizontal tail a lot of work to do keeping up with you. An aircraft of this size and inertia will not respond quickly enough to generate useful changes of flightpath, but it will try to follow with the trim. Rest a finger on the trim wheel to see what I mean. If you tend to be 'high gain', adjust to this new, larger aircraft by consciously reducing the frequency of your pitch inputs whilst maintaining glide path accurately. You'll find it's more effective and you won't have a feeling of constantly working against an out of trim aircraft. You'll also arrive at 50ft feeling nicely 'in trim' and ready for a consistent flare.
Once into what we might call the visual landing phase, below, say, 200ft, maintain the glide path by aiming the aircraft at your chosen landing point (but stay smooth on the stick!). This should leave you crossing the threshold at 50ft, and then you're into the flare as above.
A final point; a smooth landing will give 3 touch downs! The 330 has trailing bogie main gear, so the aft wheels will touch, then the forward wheels and then finally the nose gear. In my experience, many 330 sims do not mimic this, giving a single main gear touch down. A common early error is to assume that the second main gear touch down was the nose wheels, relax on the stick and allow the nose gear to slam down. This is more likely because the 330 sits more nose-down on the three points than the 320 (well, except for the freighter).
Oh, and enjoy yourself.
WST,
I wasn't there during your flight, so I don't know what your specific problem was, if any. I assume you had a debrief. However, here are my thoughts on landing the A330, concentrating on the main A320/A330 differences. Forgive me if I teach you to suck eggs. I'll use a 'standard' ILS in good weather as a starting point.
Assuming that I'm on a stable 3-degree glide path, I start a smooth and continuous flare about one potato after hearing the 40ft call-out. Assuming I'm on speed, I select idle thrust a potato after starting the flare, aiming to have the thrust levers at idle just before touch down.
As mentioned above, look deep down the runway for sink rate cues, but...
Now the gotchas!
Like any long-body, a last-second attempt to salvage a high sink rate in the flare may make things worse. Raising the nose will generate a higher AoA and thus more lift, but the aircraft has more inertia than a 320 and you are unlikely to see a significant reduction in the sink rate of the aircraft before touchdown. However, the aircraft will rotate nose-up around its cg, which is forward of the main wheels. Therefore, you may actually push the main gear down onto the runway, giving a heavier landing than might otherwise have occurred.
So what's the answer? Enter the flare from a consistent 'gate', crossing the threshold at the right height (50ft) on the correct glide slope. This will greatly reduce the likelihood of needing to make emergency corrections in the flare itself. To achieve this gate, you need accurate glide path tracking down to that point and this is another point of difference to the 320.
The A330 does not reward 'high-gain' active stick inputs for glide path tracking. Constant high-frequency pushing and pulling on the stick gives the horizontal tail a lot of work to do keeping up with you. An aircraft of this size and inertia will not respond quickly enough to generate useful changes of flightpath, but it will try to follow with the trim. Rest a finger on the trim wheel to see what I mean. If you tend to be 'high gain', adjust to this new, larger aircraft by consciously reducing the frequency of your pitch inputs whilst maintaining glide path accurately. You'll find it's more effective and you won't have a feeling of constantly working against an out of trim aircraft. You'll also arrive at 50ft feeling nicely 'in trim' and ready for a consistent flare.
Once into what we might call the visual landing phase, below, say, 200ft, maintain the glide path by aiming the aircraft at your chosen landing point (but stay smooth on the stick!). This should leave you crossing the threshold at 50ft, and then you're into the flare as above.
A final point; a smooth landing will give 3 touch downs! The 330 has trailing bogie main gear, so the aft wheels will touch, then the forward wheels and then finally the nose gear. In my experience, many 330 sims do not mimic this, giving a single main gear touch down. A common early error is to assume that the second main gear touch down was the nose wheels, relax on the stick and allow the nose gear to slam down. This is more likely because the 330 sits more nose-down on the three points than the 320 (well, except for the freighter).
Oh, and enjoy yourself.
Last edited by Tester78; 26th Jun 2015 at 12:00.
