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Pan Mayday

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Old 14th Dec 2014, 18:32
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I thought for a moment you might have had a point on a technicality there Cosmo. However I can't find any specific reference to "distress" in the context of PIC emergency authority. Both FAA and ICAO refer to "emergency". Now I will grant you that ICAO annex 10 does lack some specifity, but taken in it's apparent intended context bith MAYDAY and PAN PAN are recognized methods of declaring an emergency. I believe your interpretation is flawed.


U.S. FAA and ICAO pilot in command regulations[edit]
Serving as pilot in command[edit]
Under U.S. FAA FAR 91.3, "Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command", the FAA declares:[4]

The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.
ICAO and other countries equivalent rules are similar. In Annex 2, "Rules of the Air", under par. "2.3.1 Responsibility of pilot-in-command", ICAO declares:[1]

The pilot-in-command of an aircraft shall, whether manipulating the controls or not, be responsible for the operation of the aircraft in accordance with the rules of the air, except that the pilot-in-command may depart from these rules in circumstances that render such departure absolutely necessary in the interests of safety.

In Annex 2, par. "2.4 Authority of pilot-in-command of an aircraft", ICAO adds:[1]

The pilot-in-command of an aircraft shall have final authority as to the disposition of the aircraft while in command.

Both FAR 91.3(b) and ICAO Annex 2, par. 2.3.1, specifically empower the PIC to override any other regulation in an emergency, and to take the safest course of action at his/her sole discretion. This provision mirrors the authority given to the captains of ships at sea, with similar justifications. It essentially gives the PIC the final authority in any situation involving the safety of a flight, irrespective of any other law or regulation.
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 18:44
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I thought for a moment you might have had a point on a technicality there Cosmo. However I can't find any specific reference to "distress" in the context of PIC emergency authority.
For PIC to take provisions under emergency authority, there has to be imminent danger - would you not agree?

5.3.1.1 Distress and urgency traffic shall comprise all radiotelephony messages relative to the distress and urgency conditions respectively. Distress and urgency conditions are defined as:
a) Distress: a condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance.
b) Urgency: a condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but which does not require immediate assistance.
Mayday = imminent danger = emergency = PIC can do whatever he deems necessary.

E.g. if not deviating from the cleared SID, single engine, it would cause a crash into a mountain.

Or

E.g. if not descending immediately, following a rapid decompression, it would mean the occupants onboard the aircraft would die from oxygen deprivation.
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 19:53
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[QUOTE]Mayday = imminent danger = emergency = PIC can do whatever he deems necessary./QUOTE]

I understand you are tying captains emergency authority to the concept of "imminent danger" and hence to MAYDAY on the basis of the inclusion of this phrase in the annex definition, and therefore any deviation from a clearance is a mandatory MAYDAY. I think you are extrapolating across two rules in a manner not necessarily intended by the writers. However it is not a bad interpretation in principle.

Your original post stated that you cannot declare an emergency with a PAN call. Allowing you the benefit of the doubt in the deviation from clearance case, there is nothing in the PAN call definition which would exclude it from being used to declare an emergency in other situations.


I don't suggest I wouldn't use a MAYDAY without the slightest hesitation. My point is that pilots should not feel any inhibition in using whichever phrase they think is most appropriate for their situation. After all an engine failure on a twin does not necessarily mean you will have to deviate from a clearance. In that case the preceding arguments would not be relevant.

Last edited by HPSOV L; 14th Dec 2014 at 20:13.
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Old 15th Dec 2014, 01:46
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Actually the Qantas 380 Captain out of SIN used a PAN call. Later stating "at no time did I feel our lives were in danger".
I stand corrected. And I am not about to question that captain or crew's abilities and judgement.

Interesting that, in that case, they did deviate from their flight plan (leveled off instead of continuing assigned climb) without seeing a need for a Mayday call.
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Old 15th Dec 2014, 02:52
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Aviate!
Navigate!
Communicate!

In that order!

In an emergency situation you as PIC may do whatever you need to do to ensure safety, including deviating from flight plans if required.

You are NOT required to first "declare an emergency", say "MAYDAY" or "PAN PAN", etc., to exercise your authority as PIC. That comes later (if ever).
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Old 15th Dec 2014, 12:34
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Well said peekay4
Indeed in some emergencies (ie ones which result in complete radio failure) it may not be possible to 'declare' an emergency at all - even though one exists.
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Old 15th Dec 2014, 12:36
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cosmo kramer, actually a PAN call WILL get priority over other traffic, whereas "we've a bit of a problem" "we're a bit tight on fuel" etc will NOT. In London FIR anyway.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 02:59
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Your original post stated that you cannot declare an emergency with a PAN call. Allowing you the benefit of the doubt in the deviation from clearance case, there is nothing in the PAN call definition which would exclude it from being used to declare an emergency in other situations.
Yes, the very definition of what a pan call is:

ICAO Annex 10 vol 2, 5.3.1.2
The radiotelephony distress signal MAYDAY and the radiotelephony urgency signal PAN PAN shall be used at the commencement of the first distress and urgency communication respectively.
Keyword "respectively":

distress signal MAYDAY = at the commencement of the first distress communication
urgency signal PAN PAN = at the commencement of urgency communication

So you can't "declare an emergency" (distress) using PAN PAN...

After all an engine failure on a twin does not necessarily mean you will have to deviate from a clearance. In that case the preceding arguments would not be relevant.
Yes, say you can stick with your departure route initially, no need for a MAYDAY call. But:
- Would you like vectors ahead of the arriving traffic?
- Can you give ATC "2000 fpm or greater", due to inbound traffic?
- Can you accept to join a hold for 45 mins until an approach slot is ready for you?
- Would you like to have fire brigade on standby (perhaps hot brakes due to approach speed)?
- Etc.

So basically you might not be able to accept a later request: "Please enter holding for the next 45 min", "unable", "are you declaring an emergency?", "ahhh, yes, MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY". Of course you can postpone the mayday call, until necessary. I see it a courteous to ATC to give them advance warning. And in the end of the day, a firetruck would still be nice?

You want priority right? An urgent messages doesn't give you any priority (in theory), though:

Not Long Now,
I am aware that UK handles it differently (non ICAO standard). And in practice, I am sure you will get priority in most parts of the world too, when combining a PAN+"technical problem" (no guaranties though). But it still doesn't make it correct. If ATC will treat you as en emergency trafic anyway, why use the wrong call, when it can be done right? What is the big problem about calling MAYDAY?

My philosophy is:
If I wan't/need something out of the ordinary from ATC = MAYDAY
If I don't, I keep quiet.

For an engine failure, I for sure want full co-operation and HELP (m'aidez) from ATC.

P.s.
peekay4
Of course the mayday call should be done when things are under control, I am not suggesting you have to give a mayday call before deviating - thought that was obvious. But thereafter as soon as possible... anyway ATC will probably enquire if you forget, when you miss the turn on the SID for you company contingency procedure.

Last edited by cosmo kramer; 21st Dec 2014 at 03:24.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 07:40
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Cosmo - is there an occasion you'd actually use a PAN call?!

The fact is that "Emergency" is not referred to in the ICAO document. It simply refers to two conditions: Distress and urgency.

This lack of precision is unfortunate because it leaves a degree of interpretation, and leads to these circular arguments that pop up on forums regularly.. one can make inferences and extrapolate meanings from adjacent definitions, and you can assert opinions about the most prudent course of action. But at the end of the day none of it is absolute, because the people who wrote the rules didn't finish the job. How you interpret it is not necessarily down to the specifics of the wording but as much your own background and conditioning.


To go back to the original question: Engine failure on a twin: PAN or MAYDAY?

Answer: The rules are debatable,it depends on the circumstances, but PAN is going out of fashion.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 11:38
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Cosmo - is there an occasion you'd actually use a PAN call?!
Yes:
"PAN PAN x3, we just saw a ship on fire at position x,y"
"PAN PAN x3, we picked up a mayday call on 121.5, didn't seem anyone copied, I will relay:.."

Basically, stuff that doesn't have anything to do we me. But is an urgent message and can't wait in cue to be transmitted.

If it has to do with me, I can either call MAYDAY or if no assistance required explain in plain word what my problem is.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 13:18
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As for the question about priority. Here officially:

PANS-ATM Doc 4444:
15.1.2 Priority
An aircraft known or believed to be in a state of emergency, including being subjected to unlawful interference, shall be given priority over other aircraft.
Since a PAN call is not a distress call, you can't expect priority (again real ATC may threat you as an emergency anyway).
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 13:25
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Interesting read. Here an example of a PAN call from Doc 4444:

15.2.3 Weather deviation procedures
15.2.3.1.1 When the pilot initiates communications with ATC, a rapid response may be obtained by stating “WEATHER DEVIATION REQUIRED” to indicate that priority is desired on the frequency and for ATC response. When necessary, the pilot should initiate the communications using the urgency call “PAN PAN” (preferably spoken three times).
Another good example of an "urgent message" that needs to be passed, concerning safety of own craft.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 14:10
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It's not that black and white, Cosmo.

Consider a twin just took off, and the tower hears any of these three calls from the aircraft:

a. "Mayday. ABC123 one engine out, can't maintain altitude!"
b. "Pan Pan. ABC123 one engine out, can't maintain altitude!"
c. "ABC123 one engine out, can't maintain altitude!"

Which of the three must be treated as an emergency?

Under ICAO rules, all three.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 14:49
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peekay4,
Yes that was never the question. But which one in your example made the correct transmission (question of original poster)?

Besides it may (in other more ambiguous situations), lead to confusion:
a. MAYDAYx3, fuel
b. PAN PANx3, fuel (Note: PAN calls for fuel are no longer allowed)
c. ehhh we are getting quite low on fuel

Another (real life example), which I overheard recently, west of Cairo during cruise:

1) Cairo cairo, Austrian XXX, PAN PAN PAN PAN PAN PAN, we need to divert to Cairo due to a medical emergency
C) Station calling?
1) It's Austrian XXX
C) Ehh Austrian XXX?
1) Yes
C) Confirm you wish to divert to Cairo?
1) Affirm
C) Ehhh standby
C) Egyptair XXX descent and maintain FL190
2) Cairo goodmorning Reach XXX, overhead ANTAR FL 350
3) Transavia XXX, request descend
4) Descending FL190, Egyptair XXX
1) AUSTRIAN XXX, WE NEED TO DIVERT TO CAIRO NOW!
C) Standby!!
2) Cairo goodmorning Reach XXX, overhead ANTAR FL 350
?) XYYYSSSSSXXX
?) Blocked!
etc.

We got a frequency change before those guys got a diversion to Cairo!

I was cringing in embarrassment, there is a passenger possibly DYING, and these guys don't have MAYDAY in their vocabulary. How hard can it be:

"MAYDAY x3 Austrian XXX, medical emergency, request diversion to Cairo"

and second call, with no clearance obtained:

"MAYDAY x3 Austrian XXX, medical emergency, turning inbound Cairo VOR. Require diversion to Cairo. Standing by for descent..."

Last edited by cosmo kramer; 21st Dec 2014 at 15:19.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 17:57
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If we're going to be pedantic, a passenger "medical emergency" is normally not a MAYDAY call. PAN PAN would suffice.

A distressed aircraft in grave and imminent danger (MAYDAY) receives immediate assistance at the highest ATC priority (priority 1). The aircraft will be marked DETRESFA ("distress phase") and emergency procedures are activated. The definition of distress phase can be found in PANS-ATM (ICAO Doc. 4444). An aircraft in distress has right of way over all other traffic.

A distressed passenger with medical illness may receive priority 2 service, as necessary, if the pilot declares PAN PAN or formally declares an emergency. This is a higher level of priority than normal traffic, but does not meet the distressed aircraft criteria. Heavy traffic may preclude controllers from providing immediate assistance. This is similar to priority given to MEDEVAC flights, for example.

Last edited by peekay4; 21st Dec 2014 at 18:08.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 18:17
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A medical may be either...

1) In case it is not that serious, that you don't need to divert, I would call PAN too. Like taking place at the end of a flight, PAN call to have medical personal available after arriving. Or maybe even it can be handled directly with the handling agent, without informing ATC.

2) A passenger is having a heart attack and DYING and a matter of minutes of touching down may make the difference between life and death:

a) Distress: a condition of being threatened by serious and/or IMMINENT danger and of requiring IMMEDIATE assistance.
= MAYDAY


You are making a classical mistake and mixing up phases of an emergency (uncertainty, alert and distress phases), with when a pilot should use emergency communication and which. Those 2 things are not connected. These phases has not necessarily to do with how ATC will handle emergency traffic, but rather the things surrounding it (when to launch SAR, roll fire brigade etc.).
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 18:45
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No, it has to do with Operational Priority.

An aircraft with a sick passenger on board, even one nearing death, does not get unlimited operational priority (meaning, right of way over all other traffic).

So in your Cairo example, even if the pilot had said PAN PAN or even MAYDAY, the nature of the emergency does not rise to the level where the ATC must drop everything else to handle the flight.

See for example FAA 7110.65V, specifically 2-1-4 (a) and (b).
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 19:38
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I do not fly in FAA land, neither is Egypt.

I sure hope that an aircraft, that experiences a medical emergency will get communication priority over routine stuff like frequency handoffs etc... even in the great North America.

Can you provide a link to this local regulation of yours?
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 19:41
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ICAO Doc 4444:
6.5.6.1.1 The approach sequence shall be established in a manner which will facilitate arrival of the maximum number of aircraft with the least average delay. Priority shall be given to:
a) an aircraft which anticipates being compelled to land because of factors affecting the safe operation of the aircraft (engine failure, shortage of fuel, etc.);
b) hospital aircraft or aircraft carrying any sick or seriously injured person requiring urgent medical attention;
c) aircraft engaged in search and rescue operations; and
d) other aircraft as may be determined by the appropriate authority.
Note.— An aircraft which has encountered an emergency is handled as outlined in Chapter 15, Section 15.1
I recommend reading Chapter 15, it's an interesting read.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 20:30
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The rules are essentially same whether FAA or ICAO.

FAA Order 7110.65V Air Traffic Control

2−1−4. OPERATIONAL PRIORITY

Provide air traffic control service to aircraft on a “first come, first served” basis as circumstances permit, except the following:

a. An aircraft in distress has the right of way over all other air traffic. 14 CFR Section 91.113(c).

b. Provide priority to civilian air ambulance flights (call sign “MEDEVAC”). Use of the MEDEVAC call sign indicates that operational priority is requested. When verbally requested, provide priority to AIR EVAC, HOSP, and scheduled air carrier/air taxi flights. Assist the pilots of MEDEVAC, AIR EVAC, and HOSP aircraft to avoid areas of significant weather and turbulent conditions. When requested by a pilot, provide notifications to expedite ground handling of patients, vital organs, or urgently needed medical materials.

NOTE−
It is recognized that heavy traffic flow may affect the controller’s ability to provide priority handling. However, without compromising safety, good judgment must be used in each situation to facilitate the most expeditious movement of a MEDEVAC aircraft.

c. Provide maximum assistance to SAR aircraft performing a SAR mission. ...
You seem to view things in black & white and think that just because you used the word "MAYDAY" on a passenger medical emergency, that gives you the right to ignore ATC instructions, bust clearances, deviate your flightpath, and do whatever you want.

Sorry, but doing so would be exceeding your authority as PIC, putting others at risk, and might even delay care for the passenger in distress.

Not all emergencies are equal. Consider:

- Aircraft A calls ATC with "MAYDAY, passenger medical emergency, request immediate diversion to Cairo"

- Aircraft B also calls ATC with "MAYDAY, fire on board, losing power on both engines, request immediate diversion to Cairo"

By law, which aircraft has priority? Which pilot may deviate from ATC clearances?

PIC authority to deviate under emergencies are limited by statutes only "to the extent required to meet that emergency".

The pilot of Aircraft B would be well within his rights immediately "turn inbound Cairo VOR" and do whatever it takes to get his aircraft safely on the ground, ATC clearances be damned.

But the pilot of Aircraft A would NOT have the same right to also bust clearances, turn into the Cairo VOR, and do "whatever" to land at Cairo without permission. Such actions would be out of the norm for an in flight medical emergency, and might be considered well in excess of what is required given the nature of the emergency.
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