Diversion without approach after short hold
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Hi
I have one more question if you don't mind:
If you hold at your destination does it mean that you had more fuel than planned(minimum) for the trip(let say contingency fuel has already been consumed by headwind)? Otherwise as I understand if you have to divert final reserve fuel will be used???
As I understand everybody now flies with minimum fuel only. How holding can be possible then???
I have one more question if you don't mind:
If you hold at your destination does it mean that you had more fuel than planned(minimum) for the trip(let say contingency fuel has already been consumed by headwind)? Otherwise as I understand if you have to divert final reserve fuel will be used???
As I understand everybody now flies with minimum fuel only. How holding can be possible then???
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I think you are one of those nice people with a little knowledge and it is now becoming confusing to you.
if you look at a flight plan (airline), you will see all sorts of fuel, taxi fuel, delay fuel, fuel to destination, contingency fuel, holding fuel, diversion fuel, reserve fuel and even more if you want to get into it.
some airlines even dispatch with fuel to one destination (not the one you have on your ticket) and if things are going well, declare a new destination enroute. (the one you have on your ticket).
flying on min fuel in nice weather is not a bad thing, (we all really want so much fuel we would be terrible at making money for the airline...;-) )
so, unless you are running out of fuel, you probably have enough.
But there are situations in which you might have to leave payload (passengers or cargo) behind if you took all the fuel you really need. So you might takeoff and have to stop for more fuel. I've had to do that in order to take all passengers, even though a fuel stop is bothersome.
What you should have done is politely ask the captain, "what happened?".
so. sit back, relax and leaving the driving to us. if you are inconvenienced somehow, try another airline or buy your own plane or airline and really learn the in and out of it.
Can anyone think of the last time a western airline ran out of fuel in the sky and put down anywhere but a decent airport? (and not the gimli glider or the azores oops...those were odd fuel problems)
About 20 years ago, one major airline in the USA would go min fuel and declare min fuel going into SFO. (not a great airport when foggy). Min fuel is nothing illegal, but they were doing it all the time, so ATC finally said: ROGER MIN FUEL, Standby for vectors to OAKLAND airport or any airport you want to divert to. The airline started taking more fuel.
Airplanes fly because of one thing...MONEY> Sorry to make you sad.
if you look at a flight plan (airline), you will see all sorts of fuel, taxi fuel, delay fuel, fuel to destination, contingency fuel, holding fuel, diversion fuel, reserve fuel and even more if you want to get into it.
some airlines even dispatch with fuel to one destination (not the one you have on your ticket) and if things are going well, declare a new destination enroute. (the one you have on your ticket).
flying on min fuel in nice weather is not a bad thing, (we all really want so much fuel we would be terrible at making money for the airline...;-) )
so, unless you are running out of fuel, you probably have enough.
But there are situations in which you might have to leave payload (passengers or cargo) behind if you took all the fuel you really need. So you might takeoff and have to stop for more fuel. I've had to do that in order to take all passengers, even though a fuel stop is bothersome.
What you should have done is politely ask the captain, "what happened?".
so. sit back, relax and leaving the driving to us. if you are inconvenienced somehow, try another airline or buy your own plane or airline and really learn the in and out of it.
Can anyone think of the last time a western airline ran out of fuel in the sky and put down anywhere but a decent airport? (and not the gimli glider or the azores oops...those were odd fuel problems)
About 20 years ago, one major airline in the USA would go min fuel and declare min fuel going into SFO. (not a great airport when foggy). Min fuel is nothing illegal, but they were doing it all the time, so ATC finally said: ROGER MIN FUEL, Standby for vectors to OAKLAND airport or any airport you want to divert to. The airline started taking more fuel.
Airplanes fly because of one thing...MONEY> Sorry to make you sad.
I diverted once whilst others were landing. How they landed I do not know because the visibility was way below the legal required to even start an approach, let alone see the runway. However on landing at our alternate, guess what, the gentleman in row 3 agressively declared us to be third rate pilots since his iPhone showed that other carriers were landing, thereby pitching other passengers against the crew as well. Sure, the reasonable majority listened and understood our explanation of the reason for the divert, but about 30 passengers decided to get off there and then, at the alternate station, because they lost confidence in us. Needles to say this caused another hour of added delay to find their bags. Note again: this is after we safely followed every rule in the book.
Do you now understand why some of us are a bit impatient when our judgement is questioned by a passenger? Anyway, many possible reasons have been given for the actions of your crew.
- ATC tells them the runway is open again but they are number ten for the approach and the pilots subsequently judging that they do not have enough fuel left after holding to wait that long, especially considering the nearby thunderstorms
- other airlines/pilots accepting greater risk with weather in the approach/airport/go around area
- any other thing on the crew's mind that told them Naples was a better option to spend their precious fuel on
Next time come forward to the cockpit once landed at destination, declare yourself to be an aviation enthousiast, and I bet the pilots out of themselves will tell you the whole story of how they dealt with the challenging situation.
Do you now understand why some of us are a bit impatient when our judgement is questioned by a passenger? Anyway, many possible reasons have been given for the actions of your crew.
- ATC tells them the runway is open again but they are number ten for the approach and the pilots subsequently judging that they do not have enough fuel left after holding to wait that long, especially considering the nearby thunderstorms
- other airlines/pilots accepting greater risk with weather in the approach/airport/go around area
- any other thing on the crew's mind that told them Naples was a better option to spend their precious fuel on
Next time come forward to the cockpit once landed at destination, declare yourself to be an aviation enthousiast, and I bet the pilots out of themselves will tell you the whole story of how they dealt with the challenging situation.
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Yes sometimes reading all the regulations can be confusing without the practice. And getting flying job is difficult nowadays. I assume for different declared destination you speak about contingency fuel rule if en route replaning is used.
EU OPS doesn't talk about any holding fuel only final reserve fuel. And it's not ok to use it. All I wanted to ask what happens if you fly in dreadful weather with absolute legal minimum?
EU OPS doesn't talk about any holding fuel only final reserve fuel. And it's not ok to use it. All I wanted to ask what happens if you fly in dreadful weather with absolute legal minimum?
Hi
I have one more question if you don't mind:
If you hold at your destination does it mean that you had more fuel than planned(minimum) for the trip(let say contingency fuel has already been consumed by headwind)? Otherwise as I understand if you have to divert final reserve fuel will be used???
As I understand everybody now flies with minimum fuel only. How holding can be possible then??
I have one more question if you don't mind:
If you hold at your destination does it mean that you had more fuel than planned(minimum) for the trip(let say contingency fuel has already been consumed by headwind)? Otherwise as I understand if you have to divert final reserve fuel will be used???
As I understand everybody now flies with minimum fuel only. How holding can be possible then??
-you did not use your 5% contingency fuel
-you got route short cuts along the way
-ATC cleared you to a more optimum level than planned
-taxi fuel that is usually not fully used on a normal day
-you were ahead of scheduled and slowed down conserving fuel
-etc
When the conditions are right, and that is about 75% of my flights, minimum fuel is carried. However due to a combination of the reasons I gave I usually still land with about ten minutes of fuel above the legal minimums. Fuel which could be used for ad hoc holding. (although I don't think this is the reason why your flight was able to hold)
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...but about 30 passengers decided to get off there and then, at the alternate station, because they lost confidence in us. Needles to say this caused another hour of added delay to find their bags.
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All I wanted to ask what happens if you fly in dreadful weather with absolute legal minimum?
In other words, apply common sense.
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Hi
I have one more question if you don't mind:
If you hold at your destination does it mean that you had more fuel than planned(minimum) for the trip(let say contingency fuel has already been consumed by headwind)? Otherwise as I understand if you have to divert final reserve fuel will be used???
As I understand everybody now flies with minimum fuel only. How holding can be possible then???
I have one more question if you don't mind:
If you hold at your destination does it mean that you had more fuel than planned(minimum) for the trip(let say contingency fuel has already been consumed by headwind)? Otherwise as I understand if you have to divert final reserve fuel will be used???
As I understand everybody now flies with minimum fuel only. How holding can be possible then???
Piltdown Man, sadly on that day our ops department did not allow us to keep the bags of the disembarking passengers on board. I asked, since I agree with you that no harm is done flying to destination with all the hold bags.
By the way turbarvykas,
I hold up my hand: I am guilty of diverting when moments later everyone was landing. It was a personal judgement at the time. We were all holding because of multiple thunderstorms and after about fifteen minutes with no improvement I called it quits, electing a no-stress divert over holding till the last possible moment and risk diversion chaos when everyone else starts diverting. However on our way to our alternate we heared over the radio that some brave soul found a 'hole' in the weather and they all landed...
happens! A week later I was able to play the hero when I found that 'hole' and the rest followed. That's how the game is played.
The other alternative is to load at least an hour holding fuel everytime thunderstorms are forecast, but if you do that the whole summer season that ends up costing more than a simple diversion.
By the way turbarvykas,
I hold up my hand: I am guilty of diverting when moments later everyone was landing. It was a personal judgement at the time. We were all holding because of multiple thunderstorms and after about fifteen minutes with no improvement I called it quits, electing a no-stress divert over holding till the last possible moment and risk diversion chaos when everyone else starts diverting. However on our way to our alternate we heared over the radio that some brave soul found a 'hole' in the weather and they all landed...
happens! A week later I was able to play the hero when I found that 'hole' and the rest followed. That's how the game is played.The other alternative is to load at least an hour holding fuel everytime thunderstorms are forecast, but if you do that the whole summer season that ends up costing more than a simple diversion.
Last edited by PENKO; 19th Sep 2014 at 10:32.
