Logging IFR time
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Logging IFR time
Quick question,
Can someone clarify can i log IFR time for example; on a normal vfr flight as long as I stick to the IFR rules? I am a flight instructor so thinking of using some of my hours to help build the time. I ask this because I need to build some IFR time for a position. If so can someone please find me the legislation that says I can do so.
Cheers in advance.
Can someone clarify can i log IFR time for example; on a normal vfr flight as long as I stick to the IFR rules? I am a flight instructor so thinking of using some of my hours to help build the time. I ask this because I need to build some IFR time for a position. If so can someone please find me the legislation that says I can do so.
Cheers in advance.
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Where are you?
In general, if you are not instrument rated, you cannot legally log ANY instrument time when solo in an aircraft. Also, if you are not IFR, how could you log instrument time without a safety pilot?
In the US, FAR 61.51. says:
and FAR 91.109.c says:
Of course, a competent flight instructor would know where to find the applicable regulations...
In general, if you are not instrument rated, you cannot legally log ANY instrument time when solo in an aircraft. Also, if you are not IFR, how could you log instrument time without a safety pilot?
In the US, FAR 61.51. says:
(b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:
(1) General—
(i) Date.
(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.
(iii) Location where the aircraft departed and arrived, or for lessons in a flight simulator or flight training device, the location where the lesson occurred.
(iv) Type and identification of aircraft, flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device, as appropriate.
(v) The name of a safety pilot, if required by §91.109 of this chapter.
(2) Type of pilot experience or training—
(i) Solo.
(ii) Pilot in command.
(iii) Second in command.
(iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor.
(v) Training received in a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device from an authorized instructor.
(3) Conditions of flight—
(i) Day or night.
(ii) Actual instrument.
(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device.
(1) General—
(i) Date.
(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.
(iii) Location where the aircraft departed and arrived, or for lessons in a flight simulator or flight training device, the location where the lesson occurred.
(iv) Type and identification of aircraft, flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device, as appropriate.
(v) The name of a safety pilot, if required by §91.109 of this chapter.
(2) Type of pilot experience or training—
(i) Solo.
(ii) Pilot in command.
(iii) Second in command.
(iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor.
(v) Training received in a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device from an authorized instructor.
(3) Conditions of flight—
(i) Day or night.
(ii) Actual instrument.
(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device.
(c) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—
(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.
(2) The safety pilot has adequate vision forward and to each side of the aircraft, or a competent observer in the aircraft adequately supplements the vision of the safety pilot; and
(3) Except in the case of lighter-than-air aircraft, that aircraft is equipped with fully functioning dual controls. However, simulated instrument flight may be conducted in a single-engine airplane, equipped with a single, functioning, throwover control wheel, in place of fixed, dual controls of the elevator and ailerons, when—
(i) The safety pilot has determined that the flight can be conducted safely; and
(ii) The person manipulating the controls has at least a private pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings.
(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.
(2) The safety pilot has adequate vision forward and to each side of the aircraft, or a competent observer in the aircraft adequately supplements the vision of the safety pilot; and
(3) Except in the case of lighter-than-air aircraft, that aircraft is equipped with fully functioning dual controls. However, simulated instrument flight may be conducted in a single-engine airplane, equipped with a single, functioning, throwover control wheel, in place of fixed, dual controls of the elevator and ailerons, when—
(i) The safety pilot has determined that the flight can be conducted safely; and
(ii) The person manipulating the controls has at least a private pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings.
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I am based in the UK, I am instrument rated and reasonably competant 
I am aware of the IFR rules but my question is if I book out vfr can i legally log IFR time if I adhere to the IFR Rules?
I am only posting here because I can't find a definitive answer myself.
I am aware of the IFR rules but my question is if I book out vfr can i legally log IFR time if I adhere to the IFR Rules?
I am only posting here because I can't find a definitive answer myself.
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Yes, of course you can. But are we talking about flight with sole reference to instruments vs IFR? The two are different. And then there's the issue of logged hours vs performance. A potential employer will expect to see an ability commensurate with logged hours. If you log 100 hours of flight by sole reference to instruments, they'll expect to see you performing as a 100 hour pilot. Remember, the guys doing the assessments really know how you should fly vs hours logged - it's their job. If you under perform you won't get the opportunity to explain why.
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What do the UK regulations say about logging "IFR" time? In the US, there is no such thing in a log -- only actual or simulated Instrument Time ("sole reference to instruments" as Pitdown noted).
Under US rules, in general, IFR and VFR are mutually exclusive. You can fly under one or the other. When flying under VFR, you CANNOT legally fly actual IMC, so the only way to log Instrument Time is Simulated Instrument Time with a Safety Pilot on board. When flying solo under IFR, you cannot log actual Instrument Time when you are VMC, because you still have "see and avoid" responsibility.
Bottom line is: Either actual IFR + IMC, or have a Safety Pilot on board.
Under US rules, in general, IFR and VFR are mutually exclusive. You can fly under one or the other. When flying under VFR, you CANNOT legally fly actual IMC, so the only way to log Instrument Time is Simulated Instrument Time with a Safety Pilot on board. When flying solo under IFR, you cannot log actual Instrument Time when you are VMC, because you still have "see and avoid" responsibility.
Bottom line is: Either actual IFR + IMC, or have a Safety Pilot on board.
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Intruder,
IFR and VFR might be mutually exclusive, but IFR and VMC aren't. If you are actually flying IFR then you do not need a safety pilot, you only need a safety pilot (UK rules anyway) whenever you are simulating/practicing flying IMC but are actually VFR.
In my Jepp JAR logbook there is no provision for logging of Actual IF time, just for IFR time. Whilst doing air taxi work 90% of my flights were IFR, but a lot less was spent in IMC.
I am relatively new to the game, but I think it used to be the case that IFR time didn't matter, and honestly this makes more sense, because in the UK it was (or still is for a while) legal to log IFR time without any instrument qualifications or training, as long as you were VMC. Under EASA regs they don't seem to care about how long you have spent flying with sole reference to instruments, but ask you to log time spent IFR. This is either already or will soon be illegal in the UK (I think other countries in Europe already state this) unless you hold an IR of some sort.
IFR and VFR might be mutually exclusive, but IFR and VMC aren't. If you are actually flying IFR then you do not need a safety pilot, you only need a safety pilot (UK rules anyway) whenever you are simulating/practicing flying IMC but are actually VFR.
In my Jepp JAR logbook there is no provision for logging of Actual IF time, just for IFR time. Whilst doing air taxi work 90% of my flights were IFR, but a lot less was spent in IMC.
I am relatively new to the game, but I think it used to be the case that IFR time didn't matter, and honestly this makes more sense, because in the UK it was (or still is for a while) legal to log IFR time without any instrument qualifications or training, as long as you were VMC. Under EASA regs they don't seem to care about how long you have spent flying with sole reference to instruments, but ask you to log time spent IFR. This is either already or will soon be illegal in the UK (I think other countries in Europe already state this) unless you hold an IR of some sort.
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One instructor of mine, about 10 years ago, told me that if you fly commercially you can log your block time -15 minutes in the IFR column. (Back then it was under JAR rules. Don't know how that holds wrt EASA)
Never given it any thought since.
Never given it any thought since.
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Looks like another aspect where the rules are WAY different in the US and the UK (or maybe you misunderstand them). Of course, I have no idea what the UK rules are, because though the OP asked for "the legislation", the only ones posted so far are the US rules I posted.
In the US, there is no logging "IFR" time; only Actual or Simulated Instrument time (i.e., that time flying solely by reference to instruments).
Please post the UK rule that says you are relieved of "see and avoid" responsibilities (i.e., can fly "head down" so you can legally meet the Simulated Instrument Time requirements) when flying solo IFR and VMC.
In the US, there is no logging "IFR" time; only Actual or Simulated Instrument time (i.e., that time flying solely by reference to instruments).
Please post the UK rule that says you are relieved of "see and avoid" responsibilities (i.e., can fly "head down" so you can legally meet the Simulated Instrument Time requirements) when flying solo IFR and VMC.
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Please post the UK rule that says you are relieved of "see and avoid" responsibilities (i.e., can fly "head down" so you can legally meet the Simulated Instrument Time requirements) when flying solo IFR and VMC.
In my logbook (I'm not a commercial pilot by the way) the two columns are 'Instrument Flying' and 'Simulated Instrument Flying'.
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They are trapped by EASA which means he needs IFR time to operate single crew commercially IFR.
Its been tried before to get hours counted IFR while teaching a PPL nav ex.
Its all rather dodgy to be honest. And pretty transparent what you are up to.
I know one person that managed it and another 2 that it didn't work for and one that got removed from flying after 4 months when the FOI audited the training files.
I can't give you any references though to say you can't.
Its been tried before to get hours counted IFR while teaching a PPL nav ex.
Its all rather dodgy to be honest. And pretty transparent what you are up to.
I know one person that managed it and another 2 that it didn't work for and one that got removed from flying after 4 months when the FOI audited the training files.
I can't give you any references though to say you can't.
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Please post the UK rule that says you are relieved of "see and avoid" responsibilities (i.e., can fly "head down" so you can legally meet the Simulated Instrument Time requirements) when flying solo IFR and VMC.
The rule that says that you must have a safety pilot if you are flying VFR but heads down simulating instrument flight still applies in the UK.
I don't recall coming across a requirement (in Europe) for simulated instrument time (nor do I remember seeing a requirement from it to be differentiated from actual instrument time. The definition I remember was along the lines of "flight be sole reference to instruments" which could apply in either simulated or actual).
to go back to this statement:
When flying under VFR, you CANNOT legally fly actual IMC, so the only way to log Instrument Time is Simulated Instrument Time with a Safety Pilot on board
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Originally Posted by Fifty Seven
I am based in the UK, I am instrument rated and reasonably competant
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OhNoCB:
The OP's whole purpose is to log "IFR time".
First, I'm not sure what he means by that any more, given mad_jock's post re EASA.
Second, I agree with your statement that you do not need a safety pilot for VMC portions of IFR flight. However, technically you cannot log "Actual Instrument" or "Simulated Instrument" time for those VMC portions. I will grant that few (if any) of us time it to the minute, but I'm discussing the "big picture" of the rules here. Even when you are IFR, there is NO requirement for ATC to provide separation from VFR traffic -- that is still your (and the other pilots') responsibility, hence the requirement to look outside the cockpit.
AFAIK, Actual and Simulated Instrument time in aircraft are treated the same for purposes of experience requirements. There is no "requirement" to have Simulated Instrument time, but it is widely used when flight in actual IMC is not available. For whatever reason, all logbooks I have seen break them down into the 2 types.
As to your last question, my statement as quoted is prefaced by "When flying under VFR..."
flydive1:
The only way to legally (in the US; still no UK or EASA rules posted) log Simulated Instrument time while VMC is to fly "head down" -- referring solely to instruments while using a "hood" or other vision-restricting device.
You can practice instrument procedures (e.g., fly an ILS approach procedure) all you want when solo and VFR and VMC. However, you cannot legally log those approaches or the time as actual or simulated approaches or instrument time for the purpose of satisfying regulatory minimums (e.g., minimum time or approaches to apply for an IR, or recency of experience requirements). I fly instrument procedures on over 90% of my flights in the 747, but I often log them as visual approaches because I am not IMC and use a VMC scan.
The OP's whole purpose is to log "IFR time".
First, I'm not sure what he means by that any more, given mad_jock's post re EASA.
Second, I agree with your statement that you do not need a safety pilot for VMC portions of IFR flight. However, technically you cannot log "Actual Instrument" or "Simulated Instrument" time for those VMC portions. I will grant that few (if any) of us time it to the minute, but I'm discussing the "big picture" of the rules here. Even when you are IFR, there is NO requirement for ATC to provide separation from VFR traffic -- that is still your (and the other pilots') responsibility, hence the requirement to look outside the cockpit.
AFAIK, Actual and Simulated Instrument time in aircraft are treated the same for purposes of experience requirements. There is no "requirement" to have Simulated Instrument time, but it is widely used when flight in actual IMC is not available. For whatever reason, all logbooks I have seen break them down into the 2 types.
As to your last question, my statement as quoted is prefaced by "When flying under VFR..."
flydive1:
The only way to legally (in the US; still no UK or EASA rules posted) log Simulated Instrument time while VMC is to fly "head down" -- referring solely to instruments while using a "hood" or other vision-restricting device.
You can practice instrument procedures (e.g., fly an ILS approach procedure) all you want when solo and VFR and VMC. However, you cannot legally log those approaches or the time as actual or simulated approaches or instrument time for the purpose of satisfying regulatory minimums (e.g., minimum time or approaches to apply for an IR, or recency of experience requirements). I fly instrument procedures on over 90% of my flights in the 747, but I often log them as visual approaches because I am not IMC and use a VMC scan.
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EASA stipulate that we log IFR time in a separate entry.
They then require certain amounts of it for different reasons for certain things single crew ops IFR commercial flights is one of them.
So heading off down the what is and isn't and do you require a safety pilot isn't really helpful.
What the guy wants to do is go off with a student on a nav-ex fly it at IFR levels etc then claim the flight as IFR to get his numbers up.
The plane more than likely isn't IFR fitted and legal and he will be looking out the window the whole time more than likely never touching the controls.
But he wants the time to get a job. The fact that he more than likely isn't qualified to teach instrument flying and will also be logging the flight as instructor just complicates things further.
Any post holder in a AOC should laugh at it. If a flight ops inspector see's it they certainly won't laugh.
But the op isn't the first and won't be the last to try and get round that regulation.
They then require certain amounts of it for different reasons for certain things single crew ops IFR commercial flights is one of them.
So heading off down the what is and isn't and do you require a safety pilot isn't really helpful.
What the guy wants to do is go off with a student on a nav-ex fly it at IFR levels etc then claim the flight as IFR to get his numbers up.
The plane more than likely isn't IFR fitted and legal and he will be looking out the window the whole time more than likely never touching the controls.
But he wants the time to get a job. The fact that he more than likely isn't qualified to teach instrument flying and will also be logging the flight as instructor just complicates things further.
Any post holder in a AOC should laugh at it. If a flight ops inspector see's it they certainly won't laugh.
But the op isn't the first and won't be the last to try and get round that regulation.
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flydive1:
The only way to legally (in the US; still no UK or EASA rules posted) log Simulated Instrument time while VMC is to fly "head down" -- referring solely to instruments while using a "hood" or other vision-restricting device.
You can practice instrument procedures (e.g., fly an ILS approach procedure) all you want when solo and VFR and VMC. However, you cannot legally log those approaches or the time as actual or simulated approaches or instrument time for the purpose of satisfying regulatory minimums (e.g., minimum time or approaches to apply for an IR, or recency of experience requirements). I fly instrument procedures on over 90% of my flights in the 747, but I often log them as visual approaches because I am not IMC and use a VMC scan.
The only way to legally (in the US; still no UK or EASA rules posted) log Simulated Instrument time while VMC is to fly "head down" -- referring solely to instruments while using a "hood" or other vision-restricting device.
You can practice instrument procedures (e.g., fly an ILS approach procedure) all you want when solo and VFR and VMC. However, you cannot legally log those approaches or the time as actual or simulated approaches or instrument time for the purpose of satisfying regulatory minimums (e.g., minimum time or approaches to apply for an IR, or recency of experience requirements). I fly instrument procedures on over 90% of my flights in the 747, but I often log them as visual approaches because I am not IMC and use a VMC scan.
The OP is in EASA land, where you log IFR everytime you fly according to the IFR rules, being IMC or VMC does not matter.
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The OP is in EASA land, where you log IFR everytime you fly according to the IFR rules, being IMC or VMC does not matter.
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Yes, but you are again talking about the US.
The OP is in EASA land, where you log IFR everytime you fly according to the IFR rules, being IMC or VMC does not matter.
The OP is in EASA land, where you log IFR everytime you fly according to the IFR rules, being IMC or VMC does not matter.
So far, nobody else has posted any of the relevant EASE regulations, so simply consider all my posts as being based on US regulations.
Apparently I am not the only one who believes the OP is trying to justify padding his logbook with instrument (or "IFR") time without following the relevant regulations. Assuming that there is some relevant regulation about logging "IFR" time, his initial post is telling...
Can someone clarify can i log IFR time for example; on a normal vfr flight...
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fifty seven, can i log aerobatic time? I am imagining myself doing loop de loops right now.
Please do some research for me and find out why or why not. And attach full links to all applicable regulations; JAA, FAA, ICAO.
I'm about to playing 18 holes of golf shortly. I look forward to a full report.
Please do some research for me and find out why or why not. And attach full links to all applicable regulations; JAA, FAA, ICAO.
I'm about to playing 18 holes of golf shortly. I look forward to a full report.