Logging IFR time
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Not really because the easa regs are made by a bunch of lawyers.
I think the reg is that you need 750 hours IFR time before you can operate a SPA commercially.
Those that are flying multi crew don't care about it because it doesn't effect them. And those that already have it don't care either.
Multicrew jobs are hard to come by.
There is also a requirement for IFR time before becoming a instrument instructor.
So for your vfr ppl instructor with sub 100 hours under thier belt IFR its virtually impossible to go to single pilot commercial ops. And once someone is in multi crew ops they have no interest going back to single pilot ops or for that matter instrument instructing.
So there is now openings in spa operations but no real supply of fresh meat to sit in the seat.
I think the reg is that you need 750 hours IFR time before you can operate a SPA commercially.
Those that are flying multi crew don't care about it because it doesn't effect them. And those that already have it don't care either.
Multicrew jobs are hard to come by.
There is also a requirement for IFR time before becoming a instrument instructor.
So for your vfr ppl instructor with sub 100 hours under thier belt IFR its virtually impossible to go to single pilot commercial ops. And once someone is in multi crew ops they have no interest going back to single pilot ops or for that matter instrument instructing.
So there is now openings in spa operations but no real supply of fresh meat to sit in the seat.
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Copy from OM pt.A which is most likely a direct or paraphrased version of the regs (to show the requirement MJ is talking about):
The Operator shall ensure that a Commercial Pilot Licence (CPL) holder shall not operate as a commander of an aircraft certified in the AFM for single pilot operations unless:
1. When conducting passenger carrying operations under VFR rules outside a radius of 50 nm from an aerodrome of departure, the pilot has a minimum of 500 hours total flight time on aircraft or holds a valid instrument rating; or
2. When operating on a multi-engine type under Instrument Flight rules (IFR), the pilot has a minimum of
700 hours total flight time on aircraft which includes;
400 hours as pilot-in-command (in accordance with JAR-FCL)
of which 100 hours have been under IFR, including
40 hours multi-engine operation
Note 1 The 400 hours as pilot-in-command may be substituted by hours operating as co-pilot on the basis of two hours as co-pilot is equivalent to one hour as pilot-in-command, provided those hours were gained within an established multi-crew system.
1. When conducting passenger carrying operations under VFR rules outside a radius of 50 nm from an aerodrome of departure, the pilot has a minimum of 500 hours total flight time on aircraft or holds a valid instrument rating; or
2. When operating on a multi-engine type under Instrument Flight rules (IFR), the pilot has a minimum of
700 hours total flight time on aircraft which includes;
400 hours as pilot-in-command (in accordance with JAR-FCL)
of which 100 hours have been under IFR, including
40 hours multi-engine operation
Note 1 The 400 hours as pilot-in-command may be substituted by hours operating as co-pilot on the basis of two hours as co-pilot is equivalent to one hour as pilot-in-command, provided those hours were gained within an established multi-crew system.
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Its not asmuch as i thought i knew there was a 700 ish requirement in there somewhere. As you might of guessed i come from a multicrew enviroment and have far in excess of the hours required.
But i am also prevented by hours requirements from being a multi engine instrument instructor under easa. There is a requirement for 30 hours pic in a mep to be a class rating instructor on them. The fact i have thousands of hours in turboprops PIC counts for nothing.
Appraently mixture levers, cowl flaps and suction pumps require 30 hours to master properly.
But i am also prevented by hours requirements from being a multi engine instrument instructor under easa. There is a requirement for 30 hours pic in a mep to be a class rating instructor on them. The fact i have thousands of hours in turboprops PIC counts for nothing.
Appraently mixture levers, cowl flaps and suction pumps require 30 hours to master properly.
The EASA requirement, in Part-ORO, has a couple of significant difference from CB's Ops Manual, which reflects the EU-OPS requirement:
1. The experience requirements must have been gained in aeroplanes and not any other category of aircraft.
2. The 40 hours in multi-engine operations does not have to be part of the 100 hours under IFR (i.e. it may be gained under VFR)
ORO.FC.A.250 Commanders holding a CPL(A)
(a) The holder of a CPL(A) (aeroplane) shall only act as commander in commercial air transport on a single-pilot aeroplane if:
(1) when carrying passengers under VFR outside a radius of 50 NM (90 km) from an aerodrome of departure, he/she has a minimum of 500 hours of flight time on aeroplanes or holds a valid instrument rating; or
(2) when operating on a multi-engine type under IFR, he/she has a minimum of 700 hours flight time on aeroplanes, including 400 hours as pilot-in-command. These hours shall include 100 hours under IFR and 40 hours in multi-engine operations. The 400 hours as pilot in command may be substituted by hours operating as co-pilot within an established multi-pilot crew system prescribed in the operations manual, on the basis of two hours flight time as co-pilot for one hour of flight time as pilot-in-command.
(b) For operations under VFR by day of performance class B aeroplanes (a)(1) shall not apply.
(a) The holder of a CPL(A) (aeroplane) shall only act as commander in commercial air transport on a single-pilot aeroplane if:
(1) when carrying passengers under VFR outside a radius of 50 NM (90 km) from an aerodrome of departure, he/she has a minimum of 500 hours of flight time on aeroplanes or holds a valid instrument rating; or
(2) when operating on a multi-engine type under IFR, he/she has a minimum of 700 hours flight time on aeroplanes, including 400 hours as pilot-in-command. These hours shall include 100 hours under IFR and 40 hours in multi-engine operations. The 400 hours as pilot in command may be substituted by hours operating as co-pilot within an established multi-pilot crew system prescribed in the operations manual, on the basis of two hours flight time as co-pilot for one hour of flight time as pilot-in-command.
(b) For operations under VFR by day of performance class B aeroplanes (a)(1) shall not apply.
2. The 40 hours in multi-engine operations does not have to be part of the 100 hours under IFR (i.e. it may be gained under VFR)
Perhaps some EASA definitions may help to resolve the confusion surrounding the OP's question (SERA = Standardised European Rules of the Air).
Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) Conditions of visibility and distance from cloud equal to or greater than the minima detailed in SERA.5001
Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) Conditions of visibility and distance from cloud less than the minima described in SERA.5001
Visual Flight Rules (VFR) Rules under which flight may take place in VMC as detailed in SERA.5005
Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) Rules under which flight may take place in VMC and must take place in IMC as detailed in SERA.5015
Instrument Flight Time (IFT) The time during which a pilot is controlling an aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments
Note:
Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) Conditions of visibility and distance from cloud equal to or greater than the minima detailed in SERA.5001
Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) Conditions of visibility and distance from cloud less than the minima described in SERA.5001
Visual Flight Rules (VFR) Rules under which flight may take place in VMC as detailed in SERA.5005
Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) Rules under which flight may take place in VMC and must take place in IMC as detailed in SERA.5015
Instrument Flight Time (IFT) The time during which a pilot is controlling an aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments
Note:
Flight under IFR does not necessarily imply flight by sole reference to instruments. A pilot may elect to fly visually but under IFR in VMC
Flight by sole reference to instruments does not necessarily imply flight under IFR. Instrument training may be conducted under VFR in VMC using a means of simulating IMC (simulated IF)
Flight under IFR in any flight conditions requires the pilot to hold an instrument rating
For issue of an ATPL, a pilot must have at least 45 hours instrument flight time, beyond this there is no point in trying to pad the IF hours. For instrument instructional privileges, for example, it is not instrument flight time that is important but flight time under IFR, hence the OP's question. A flight may be conducted wholly under IFR (as are most commercial air transport flights) in which case IFR is logged from off blocks to on blocks, or partly under VFR and partly under IFR, in which case only that proportion of the flight spend under IFR may be logged (obviously). The decision to operate under IFR in VMC (and clear of controlled airspace) is entirely that of the pilot-in-command
Flight by sole reference to instruments does not necessarily imply flight under IFR. Instrument training may be conducted under VFR in VMC using a means of simulating IMC (simulated IF)
Flight under IFR in any flight conditions requires the pilot to hold an instrument rating
That it is the mark of a person who lacks the moral integrity to hold an instructor certificate (or, indeed, a pilot licence). However, provided that an IR is held, the selection of flight rules in VMC is entirely at the pilot's discretion. Nevertheless, these things do get checked when application is made for certificates and the competent authority is likely to question the validity of any hours they're not convinced about.
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its not for a certificate its a requirement for EU-OPS SPA commercial transport.
So as such its just a QA check by the AOC post holder that the regulations have been complied with.
You can't blame these pilots though been instructing for years, and the only jobs they have had a sniff at requires these IFR hours.
To be perfectly honest quite what 100 hours prove IFR I don't know. Its a bit like the PICUS logging as a FO some get their knickers in a right twist about it. Me I never logged a single hour of it as I had PIC time instructing in a tommy VFR. Which there is very little comparison to a pref A multi crew airline operation.
So as such its just a QA check by the AOC post holder that the regulations have been complied with.
You can't blame these pilots though been instructing for years, and the only jobs they have had a sniff at requires these IFR hours.
To be perfectly honest quite what 100 hours prove IFR I don't know. Its a bit like the PICUS logging as a FO some get their knickers in a right twist about it. Me I never logged a single hour of it as I had PIC time instructing in a tommy VFR. Which there is very little comparison to a pref A multi crew airline operation.
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NB: Under EASA an FI requires 200 Hours IFR before they can undertake the course to teach for the IR.
So long as a PIC is qualified to fly IFR (under EASA some form of IR is required) then any flight which happens to meet both VFR and IFR criteria may be logged as either.
It is not you who sticks to the IFR rules. The flight must be flown in accordance with IFR - therefore all crew members (including the student) on board would Log IFR.
This is a problem if you are not qualified to teach IFR, especially if the student is actually being taught VFR Nav. You cannot both Log different rules for the same flight.
The one time I think it is permissible for a PPL Instructor to Log IFR time is when they wish to momentarily fly IMC in order to better teach the lesson required by the student. In this case you can only Log as IFR the time (a few minutes) you were actually IMC.
Eg: Climbing through a low cloud layer to VMC on top (with a good horizon) in order to teach turning.
Can someone clarify can i log IFR time for example; on a normal vfr flight as long as I stick to the IFR rules?
I stick to the IFR rules? I am a flight instructor
This is a problem if you are not qualified to teach IFR, especially if the student is actually being taught VFR Nav. You cannot both Log different rules for the same flight.
The one time I think it is permissible for a PPL Instructor to Log IFR time is when they wish to momentarily fly IMC in order to better teach the lesson required by the student. In this case you can only Log as IFR the time (a few minutes) you were actually IMC.
Eg: Climbing through a low cloud layer to VMC on top (with a good horizon) in order to teach turning.
I note that some States permit logging of instrument flight time while the aircraft is on autopilot. Why is this so? The original history of logging of instrument flying time was "in cloud" or simulated instrument flight time (under the hood) - the proviso being it all had to be manual flight on instruments and by default became reasonably reliable as a measure of a pilots instrument flying skill. In other words if he had survived a couple of hundred hours hand flying in IMC he must be fairly safe.
That all was changed when some States (following ICAO?) decided that pilots could also log instrument flight time (IMC) while the automatic pilot was doing all the flying. Clearly there was no personal instrument flying skills needed for that. So the whole historical point of logging instrument flight time which in turn was used as a measure of a pilots hand flying experience in cloud, became nullified. And thus it is to this day. It is also not possible to audit instrument flight time because it relies totally on the honesty of the pilot who claims the instrument hours in his log book. The only time an audit is proof positive is during dual instruction, where the instructor can vouch for and certify the fact in the pilots log book. That happens during instrument flying training for initial issue of the candidate's instrument rating.
After that, the system relies completely on the integrity of the pilot who logs instrument flight time in his log book. Not all pilots log honest I/F hours.
IFR logged time is a different animal altogether but is often logged to satisfy some operator's recruiting requirements. It is not an indication of a pilots instrument flying hand flying skills.
IMHO, once a new pilot leaves his flying school audited instrument rating training and has passed his initial instrument rating test, there should be no legal requirement to further log any instrument time - either hand flying or on autopilot. The reason for this is that serves no purpose since future claimed instrument flying hours in the pilots log book cannot be audited - thus leaving it wide open to fraudulent practices. We are talking about an ideal situation, but of course individual State legislative rules differ leaving the system wide open to wholesale forgery of claimed instrument flight time in order to satisfy State rules. And that happens all the time.
That all was changed when some States (following ICAO?) decided that pilots could also log instrument flight time (IMC) while the automatic pilot was doing all the flying. Clearly there was no personal instrument flying skills needed for that. So the whole historical point of logging instrument flight time which in turn was used as a measure of a pilots hand flying experience in cloud, became nullified. And thus it is to this day. It is also not possible to audit instrument flight time because it relies totally on the honesty of the pilot who claims the instrument hours in his log book. The only time an audit is proof positive is during dual instruction, where the instructor can vouch for and certify the fact in the pilots log book. That happens during instrument flying training for initial issue of the candidate's instrument rating.
After that, the system relies completely on the integrity of the pilot who logs instrument flight time in his log book. Not all pilots log honest I/F hours.
IFR logged time is a different animal altogether but is often logged to satisfy some operator's recruiting requirements. It is not an indication of a pilots instrument flying hand flying skills.
IMHO, once a new pilot leaves his flying school audited instrument rating training and has passed his initial instrument rating test, there should be no legal requirement to further log any instrument time - either hand flying or on autopilot. The reason for this is that serves no purpose since future claimed instrument flying hours in the pilots log book cannot be audited - thus leaving it wide open to fraudulent practices. We are talking about an ideal situation, but of course individual State legislative rules differ leaving the system wide open to wholesale forgery of claimed instrument flight time in order to satisfy State rules. And that happens all the time.
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Why do you call it fraudulent if it's recorded according to the regulations?
In EASA is IFR time, time flown according to the IFR rules not IMC and in Europe(mostly I believe) has been so well before EASA/JAA.
If FAA decided to go another way, well so be it.
Do you log flight time(TT, PIC, etc) only when manually flying?
In EASA is IFR time, time flown according to the IFR rules not IMC and in Europe(mostly I believe) has been so well before EASA/JAA.
If FAA decided to go another way, well so be it.
Do you log flight time(TT, PIC, etc) only when manually flying?
