Still some horrible landings every now and then..

[WhySoTough]

Now with about 1300 hours TT, with 900 on the airbus 320 (first jet), I still seem to be having pretty inconsistent landings.
I have the usual nice and sometimes on the firmer side landing, but every once in a while I really do hit the ground hard.

Had a 1.46 G landing yesterday which felt horrible.
Was on a heavy 321 (not justifying it).

Any tips, advice, or honesty on weather this is normal or not?

Would appreciate. Thank you guys.

[LNIDA]

Where are looking when preparing to flare? In my experience its either trying to do it by numbers or RAD ALT call outs, but more probably you need to look further along the runway, that prospective is what you look for, try a couple of auto lands and watch the computers, but there is a reason auto land need more runway length !!!

[casablanca]

I don't know, but when you figure it out let me know!
I have over 12,000 hours with close to 5000 widebody command, and all I have learned is nobody is immune to a bad landing now and then. In big jets being smooth is really not the goal or most important thing, ( but I know having a bad landing seems to haunt you for days).
Your experience level is still low and it will get better......try and be a sponge and absorb as much good knowledge as you can from those you fly with and you will be fine.

[Fursty Ferret]

...welcome to the club.

3000 hours on A320 series and I can pretty much guarantee that I've left an Airbus shaped dent in every runway in Europe. It'll get better but never perfect.

[WhySoTough]

Thank you guys for the quick and honest responses, I appreciate.
LNIDA:
I'm honestly not looking too far ahead, definitely not at the end of the runway.
I used to ask my instructors often, and almost all of them don't look too far down the runway. I will try to look a little further down and see how goes.

Some of my instructors would advice to break the ROD at 50 feet to about 400/500 FPM when on a 321 especially if it were on the heavy side..

Again thanks guys.

[misd-agin]

Actually do land the A321 heavy you need to reduce the sink rate to 425-430 FPM. Light it can handle 450-487 FPM.




If someone told me at 50' that I need to correct the sink rate to ANY specific number I'd laugh in their face.


People often do a small pitch correction in the 30-50' range. Let's call it a 'pre flare'. If you do it at 50'(typical approach) you do slightly less than you do if you make a change at a lower altitude.


If the sink rate is higher you do slightly more. If the sink rate is less you do slightly less or delay making an inputs.

[Capt Scribble]

Do you make sure that there are 5kts between VLS as given on the PFD and Vapp? If there is not, make it so in the FMGC. Another tip is to check the actual speed as you approach the flare, sometimes the IAS is a little below magenta, in which case do not take the power off until the wheels touch.

[Good Business Sense]

LNIDA is absolutely spot on - I used to teach 250 hour guys/girls on their first commercial aircraft/jets and these were the issues every time.

Not being disrespectful but a quick reread of "Exercise 13" can really help - they all fly the same way give or take. When we get into the bigger stuff we tend to, initially, rely too much on the numbers

Keep working on feel and whilst the numbers can help i.e. rad alt call outs etc, it's feel that will help on the dark, horrible, rainy night stuff.

- I'd add, without getting into performance discussions, think about the weight of the aircraft and, therefore, how fast you close the thrust levers (all other things being equal e.g being on speed, sink rate et all). For example, with a heavy weight aircraft consider closing the thrust levers just a Little (capital L) bit slower.

[AirRabbit]

I'm going to go out "on a limb" here and risk the almost inevitable criticisms and retorts from some here - but, with all due modesty, this is what I've used and what I've taught for nearly 4 decades ... and, if done correctly, will result in consistently good landings in all weather conditions ... but you must understand that a "good" landing is not necessarily the proverbial "greased-on" touchdown ... in fact, trying for such a touchdown may compromise safety. So, with that said, please take the following for whatever you believe it may be worth...

How to Land an Airplane
(This primarily addresses transport category or commuter category airplanes … but the basic premise is applicable to every airplane with wings.)

On short final with wings level and the airplane configured for landing, the airspeed should be at the recommended approach speed – which should be VREF plus any appropriate additive. If VREF speed is not stated, 1.3Vso should be used (where Vso is the calibrated power-off stall speed of the airplane in the landing configuration … usually with a forward CG). However, and importantly, the airspeed flown on the final approach, starting at the Final Approach Fix (FAF), should be above VREF … more specifically, the pilot should add ½ of the headwind component value (… but never less than 5 knots – for safety considerations) … plus all of any wind-gust value reported. As the runway threshold is approached, the added headwind component should be allowed to bleed off while retaining the wind-gust value, such that when crossing the threshold the airspeed should be VREF plus only that wind-gust value. From over the threshold the position toward which the pilot should fly the airplane is a point on the runway surface about 2/3 of the way between the threshold and the painted “aiming point markings” at the 1000 foot point down the runway – we used to call these painted blocks, the “fixed distance markers.” For reference, the pilot should know that the point to which the airplane is actually being flown is that point that does not move “up” or “down” in the windscreen.

The “flare” should be initiated at a point above the runway that will allow a continuously increasing back pressure on the elevator controls to move the nose up to a level flight attitude … and, in case you didn’t already know, the landing attitude I’m describing is the attitude it would take if continued flight down the runway was desired at THAT height above the runway … without accelerating, without decelerating, without climbing, and without descending. This “level flight attitude” should be achieved with the main landing gear between one (1) and five (5) feet above the runway surface (1 foot for the smaller machines and 5 feet for the bigger machines). Yeah, I know. That’s not much height. But, after all, you ARE striving to be a professional … right? The change in the attitude from when you initiate the flare to reaching the flare attitude should take just about 3 seconds (about 2 seconds for the smaller machines and about 4 seconds for the larger machines). Also, the main gear touchdown should occur within the first 3,000 feet OR within the first 1/3 of the runway length, whichever is shorter! If the pilot recognizes that the landing may not occur within these parameters, immediate consideration for executing a “go-around” must be made.

Additionally, in the event a crosswind is present, as the flare altitude is approached, the airplane should be in an “angled” position relative to the runway surface, sometimes called a “crab,” such that a point on the belly of the airplane exactly between the main gear (between the body gear the larger machines) is over the runway centerline and the airplane is tracking to maintain this lateral position. In anticipation of landing, power reduction may begin as early as crossing the threshold, and power reduction should begin no later than achieving the “flare” attitude prior to touchdown. Most pilots start the power reduction AS the flare is initiated … and is the same point any crab alignment with the runway centerline is initiated. The rate of power reduction is entirely up to you (and/or your company) … but once started, power reduction should be continued all the way to the flight idle position. This will reduce the likelihood of having to increase or decrease the rate of back pressure control on the column/stick to continue the flare and subsequently to achieve “level flight” attitude as the power reduction is continued. The power should be in the idle position no later than upon main gear touchdown – simply because with some airplanes equipped with auto-spoiler activation/deactivation, having the throttles physically positioned ahead of the spoiler auto-retract position may initiate spoiler extension when the landing gear contacts the runway surface, and then experience immediate spoiler retraction due to that throttle position … which is certainly not something you want at this point.

As you pull the throttle(s) back, you will notice the nose getting heavier – don’t let the nose move down. You will notice the necessity to continually, but slightly, increase the back pressure on the elevator controls … initially to move the nose from the position in which you have been holding it while approaching the flare initiation point, up to that level flight position (more on that in a moment), and once that attitude has been achieved, you will notice the necessity to continue that back pressure increase – no longer to move the nose up – but now, since the level flight attitude has been reached, in order to maintain that level flight attitude as the airspeed decreases – and the more the airspeed decreases, the more back pressure will be required to keep that level flight attitude. Of course you would recognize that because you have been reducing the throttle(s) position AND you’ve been raising the pitch attitude, the airspeed will be decreasing. Because you will have been reducing the power (maybe to idle) the airspeed will continue to decelerate, and the airplane will continue to descend, going from just above the runway to ON the runway. When performed precisely and accurately, the touchdown will occur exactly AS the airplane reaches that level flight attitude. BUT, and very importantly – humans are rarely perfect – and performing this task to that degree of accuracy is not regularly accomplished – but it IS accomplished – and the more you practice doing this, the more you will be successful in doing it perfectly. Your touchdown should be firm but not hard. The kinetic energy of the airplane should be moving in the right direction, and the nose should be able to be flown to the runway rather quickly as the attitude will not be unnecessarily high to arrest an unwanted high sink rate. You should be over the center of the runway, with the controls already properly positioned for the landing run. Also, you should be acutely aware of the fact that the longer the power is maintained above the idle position, the farther down the runway it will be that the main gear will actually touch the runway surface.

If you had been carrying a crab angle to counter a crosswind, the crab should be removed in exactly the same time as the flare takes – i.e., approximately 3 seconds – and should be done AS the airplane is being flared. This is done by applying pressure to the rudder pedal to pressure (do not "kick") the nose around to line up the airplane centerline with the centerline of the runway while simultaneously increasing the back pressure on the control column to flare. As you probably know, because of the forward sweep of the upwind wing when removing the “crab” will tend to make that wing rise, it may be necessary to counter with some “into-the-wind” aileron to counter that … but, unless the wind is quite strong, you won’t be in the air long enough to have the wind blow you downwind off the centerline. Of course, if the wind IS quite strong, you may have to add a bit more aileron to slightly (very slightly) dip the up-wind wing into that wind.

I probably do not need to say that once all the landing gear are on the ground and the airplane is tracking down the runway, immediately ensure the throttle(s) is(are) in idle, extend ground spoilers, apply appropriate wheel brakes, and use reverse thrust as your operations manual dictates.

Let me offer a quick “aside” … if I was your instructor … for practice … I would probably have you “fly down the runway … at THAT flare altitude … no climb, no descent, no acceleration, no deceleration;” and I’d tell you that “we’ll go around at the end of the runway.” If there had been a crosswind present, I would have you keep the crab angle you established and tell you to fly down the runway with no climb, no descent, no faster, no slower, keeping that point on the belly of the airplane exactly over the runway centerline – and to do that with whatever crab angle you need to do it. Of course, with or without a crosswind present … you’d have to add a bit of power – since you likely would have had the throttles back, but I would allow you to do that since we wouldn’t be landing anyway. I’d have you do this exercise as many times as was necessary to get you comfortable with the timing as to when to initiate the flare, how quickly to flare, and to what attitude you need to stop the flare with the main gear just off the runway surface – and the key point would be to have you use whatever cues made sense to YOU to accomplish all these things. This would enable you to recognize and become familiar with your position … know how to recognize when to start the flare … and get comfortable with how quickly you need to adjust the elevator controls to achieve the flare you desire … and, perhaps most importantly, have you recognize what attitude you should have at the end of the flare … using whatever cues are important and understandable … to YOU – and again, the attitude we are discussing is called the LEVEL FLIGHT ATTITUDE – which is THE attitude from which all airplanes should be landed – and I mean ALL airplanes! One more thing ... this exercise can be successfully accomplished in most higher level simulators ... and because of the inevitable deficiencies (regardless of how minor) that exist in the simulated environment, there may be some slight modification required to the cues you will use when landing the airplane as opposed to the simulator - and if it is necessary, go ahead and make that/those adjustment(s) ... with the practice you've had in the simulator, it should be a reasonably easy adjustment to your recognition processes.

Clearly, while I stand by what I’ve said here, and I’ve practiced it throughout my career, as you probably have heard me say, over and over, all of the above is my opinion, and does not reflect the position of any other individual, any company, any enterprise, or any agency … despite whatever desire I may have to the contrary.

[Oakape]

Look as far down the runway as you can. This will improve depth perception.

To try & get the correct 'picture' in your mind, get in the habit of having a look down the far end of the runway as you line up for take off. This will show you what the picture out the window will look like when the aircraft is on the runway. (a bit different from touch down due to the nose high attitude, but close enough).

Then get your eyes down the end of the runway during the flare when the skipper is doing the landing. Decide from the picture you are seeing if he/she is going to roll it on, bang it on, or float. Then see what actually happens & mentally adjust your picture.

Finally, always remember that when it comes to nice landings, you will 'win' a few & 'lose' a lot!

[glendalegoon]

maybe you should ask yourself how many landings you have actually made in 1300 hours total time.

and if you are flying a jet for a good portion of that, I'll bet your hand flying time is actually pretty low. 900 hours on a jet, half goes to the captain, so that's 450 hours and with 5 hour legs maybe you have done 90 landings?

ask, check your log book, wonder.

and with 400 hours before that, maybe another 500 total landings?

so, my guess is you have less than 800 landings.

it takes time. it takes experience.

one thing is that ground effect seems to happen at half the wingspan above the runway and that is where the flare is about the right place.

take some advice from the other guys here, look far down the runway, read some good books about flying and be precise

[Uplinker]

WST, you keep asking this question. You have been told many times by many people how to do it.

You need to read again what has been said then APPLY it when you fly, and use the method which works for you.

The overall most important and significant thing to do is look at the FAR end of the runway as you approach it - not the tarmac 100m ahead of the aircraft, but the FAR end of the runway. Eyes outside the cockpit now.

When the rad alt says 30' start to flare and OBSERVE by looking outside how your rate of descent decreases by reference to the FAR end of the runway - you will get a different perspective and you will be able to see the runway 'coming up to meet you' and you can easily see the ROD.

Forget all the cockpit instruments, your eyes should be outside now. You need to reduce the rate of descent but not completely - pull up until you can see just a slight residual ROD and you will settle onto the runway nicely. Don't reduce power too soon, and don't pull reverse until all the mains are down.

When my landings are getting 'crunchy' or 'floaty' I usually find it's because I am not looking at the far end of the runway.

Using this visual method will take into account differing landing weights, because you will automatically adjust ROD until it is the same for all landings.

Out of interest, what flying experience and which types have you flown prior to medium/big jets?

[Exaviator]

WhySoTough, you have been given lots of advice in the previous posts, much of which is valid. However, some aircraft due to the undercarriage geometry require a slightly different landing technique.

The Airbus A-300 (B4) was a classic example. After arresting the decent and flaring in the normal manner a slight forward movement of the control column was required to achieve that smooth touch down. The Boeing 727-200 was another example.

Another consideration is seating position, you maybe sitting too low. Most large jets have height of eye indicators which are there for a good reason, and don't be shy of asking for advice from the captains that you fly with, or better still talk to your company instructors.

[Doors to Automatic]

1.46G isn't that bad is it? I heard of some 5 or 6G landings in the past - mind you they did tend to write off the aircraft!

And the A321 is prone to hard landings if I am not mistaken?

[Rick777]

A lot of good ideas here. That said everybody plants one occasionally. I usually found that I was not looking down the runway far enough when I didn't get my usual greaser.

[BARKINGMAD]

Good landing definition: EVERBODY walks away from it.

Great landing definition: If the company can use the plane again, without engineering checks/repairs required!!

I read somewhere the 'bus pitches down 2 degrees at 30' radio, in order to give the pilots that warm wet feeling they're flying a real aircraft. Would this be the source of some of your perceived difficulty?

[snorton]

"Look as far down the runway as you can. This will improve depth perception."

I agree with that! Anticipation is very important and underrated here