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Old 27th Dec 2012, 19:52   #1 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: UK
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Logging of T/O and Landings

Hi

Just curious more than anything else as I believe the logging of the number of take offs and landings is not a requirement but the Jeppesen logbook I use has a column for it, so I have done ever since I started flying and is useful when I'm instructing to see how many circuits I had done with a student at PPL level.

A captain I flew with mentioned that I shouldn't log the T/O or landing if it's not my sector and should only record this when I'm acting as PICUS.

I think he's correct thinking about it logically but can't find any reference to this anywhere?
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 22:27   #2 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: UK
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You need a record of your T/Offs and Landings so you can easily check,
or prove if you have to, your currency (3 x T/O and 3 x Landing in previous
90 days) to legally carry passengers.

In Multi-Crew both PIC and P2 have to be current.

I don't believe it matters if you were PIC, PICUS or P2 - what does matter
is were you "Pilot Flying"? You Log all T/Offs and Landings when you were
"PF".

It is a good idea for a Student to record, not only the number of T/Offs
and Landings, but also what sort ie: Glide, Flapless, Short Field, X-Wind,
T&G or FS.

Because of above, it is also good practise for Instructor to also record the
same details.
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 00:07   #3 (permalink)
 
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Never in 30 years professional flying have I ever heard of anyone recording t/o - landings, nor of any requirement to do so or even seen a log book in which you could do so (though there are evidently some out there). How do landings have anything to do with P1u/s? A conceptual problem there I think. I suppose in long haul it might be something to keep an eye on but for most pilots its a non issue. Anyway, recency in professional aviation is the company's job, surely?

In a PPL or single pilot operation every landing is yours.

Never heard of a requirement for students to do this either - an appropriate remark is usually put in the remarks column describing the ground covered in the sortie but listing numbers/types of landings is a bit ott.
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 08:52   #4 (permalink)
 
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Several years ago a Swiss flight to TLV had to be delayed/cancelled because the F/O did not have the necessary number of takes off on that particular aircraft type.
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 09:18   #5 (permalink)
 
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Landing currency can be a problem, not only on pure long-haul operation. For example we have a fleet that does MFF on both A320 and A330, they have to maintain currency on both types, not only in general. So having to visit the simulator just to do an A320 landing is kinda stupid, therefore it has to be tracked.

JAA logbooks usually do have a column for landings and take off. One can only log those on his PF sectors, if one switches roles on flights take care to only log the relevant part (either take off or landing). It is usually a non-issue for shorthaul pilots except if working part time. PF shouldn't be confused with PICUS, although the brits tend to do that due to their extremely lax CAA view on that thing.
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 09:21   #6 (permalink)
 
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As long as you have the same number of landigs as take-offs all should be well !!
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 12:09   #7 (permalink)
 
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Ever since JAR came into existance the AMC for JAR-FCL 1 has carried an example of logbook format, which Jeppesens European logbook has emulated.

Same format exists in EASA FCL as a means of compliance.

But yes you need to log T/O and LDG otherwise how can you comply with the 90 day rule? or night currency if you dont have an IR?

Its all in the regulations if you look hard enough.
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 12:56   #8 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Aberdeen,Scotland,UK
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If your license is issued by theUK CAA you are governed by CAP393.

PArt 8 section 79 gives you what to record and T/O and landings isn't one of the requirements.

Thats not to say you can't log them if you feel like it.

There is a requirement to record landings for certain ratings and tests eg night ratings and base checks. But thats about it for a Brit license holder.

And this PICUS nonsense don't go near it with Captains unless its brought up by them and then just agree with them. I have just had to set up 3 different processes for PICUS logging for different NAA's license holders.

I have 1 NAA that requires them to be on a command upgrade course flying in the LHS.

1 That requires it to be done only with a TRI/TRE.

1 That it can be done with a line trainer.

And of course the easy Brit option which we never know what the FO logs and a letter from OPS saying the hours are correct is good enough.

BTW I have never logged PICUS I got my PIC hours in a spam can VFR instructing which taught me sweet FA about operating a commercial airliner. So I really can't get my knickers in a twist about FO's logging PICUS when handling.
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 11:39   #9 (permalink)
 
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Decades past it was a regulatory requirement to log instrument flight time as actual or simulated. By simulated it meant under a hood so you cannot see outside. We all cheated occasionally by tilting the hood if the instructor didn't see you. Instrument flight time was only logged if you were in IMC (in cloud or pitch black night). It was considered extremely bad form if you logged instrument flying while on automatic pilot. What is the point in doing that, anyway. Logging of automatic pilot time in IMC has no meaning as instrument flying skill is not involved in any way.

In later years the tail started wagging the dog and it became legal to log automatic flight in IMC and this degraded the original principle of logging of instrument flight time which was meant to be a reliable measure of instrument flying ability. Not anymore of course. Going a step further some regulatory authorities I am told approve logging of all IFR flight plan flights as instrument flying.

As with all instrument flight time, it is left to the integrity of the pilot to log instrument flight time honestly. Frequently that does not occur and wholesale forging of instrument flight time is quite common especially as only the pilot knows if he is cheating. There is no audit trail which means the whole idea behind logging of instrument flight time is shot to pieces. It is meaningless in reality but regulatory authorities still insist on it. But logging of a take off and a landing? Seems a bit of a leg-pull?

Last edited by Centaurus; 31st Dec 2012 at 11:54.
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 14:03   #10 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: uk
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mad_jock: from your posts I asume that you are still quite involved with light aviation? As an examiner did you never have to ensure that a PPL SE rated pilot who wished to revalidate his rating by way of hours flown had also met the requirements with respect to the 12 landings required in the final 12 months of the two year period?

With regard to the matter of "co-pilot" handling on larger aircraft - in the days of the "Atlantic Barons" it was quite possible to log thousands of hours as P2 without ever being allowed to touch the flying controls. Thus P1ucs was established as one means of getting at least some idea of how much "polling" time a tyro co-jo was getting.

The youngsters these days...................

Have you never heard of BOAC's infamous Landing Card for F/Os?

Last edited by Meikleour; 31st Dec 2012 at 14:04.
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Old 1st Jan 2013, 11:38   #11 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Aberdeen,Scotland,UK
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FI rating just lapsed.

You have to be a martyr to light aviation to become a PPL examinor these days the cost is stupid and most are lucky to see any return on getting it so I never bothered.

I was only JAR never knew the old system.

Thankfully those days are gone now with Pilots and flap operators. I am happy to say that my PNF sectors are more than my PF sectors. The only thing PICUS is any use with is for the zero to heros gaining an ATPL.

If there was a requirement for ever pilot upgrading to do a number of hours of it I could see the point of getting wound up about it. But there are many like myself who got the PIC requirement by banging out 4-8 hours a day vfr instructional flights. Which teach you nothing about instrument flying or for that matter how to operate and manage a commercial flight.

The students using log books without the TO and landings columns when doing circuits just put the number in the remarks bit and every other flight is just counted as 1 of each.

Best thing for a FO is to keep there log book away from Captains eyes its theirs and they can log what they like it and its got sod all to do with the Captain. What they put in it is between them and there National Authority.
A FO could be loging all their flights as PIC while flying with me. I will mention that its wrong and refuse to sign the hours off if requested but it is really none of my buisness what they put in there own log book.
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Old 4th Jan 2013, 12:11   #12 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
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Quote:
Best thing for a FO is to keep there log book away from Captains eyes its theirs and they can log what they like it and its got sod all to do with the Captain. What they put in it is between them and there National Authority.
A FO could be loging all their flights as PIC while flying with me.
Tell me it's a wind up? Please!

Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 4th Jan 2013 at 18:07.
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Old 4th Jan 2013, 21:58   #13 (permalink)
 
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Nope i am at spelling and grammar but do ok throwing a lump of metal at some sort of surface which you can land on.

I have also an engineering degree and survived 10 years without anything breaking when I didn't predict it would including stuff which included a precise number of neutrons keeping the heat up. And quite a few of my co workers had issues with spelling and grammar as well.
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Old 5th Jan 2013, 07:47   #14 (permalink)
 
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Agaricus Bisporus

You show a typical minor public school attitude.

Some of the guys in this industry had to slum it in education battling with the poor and underfunded state education system and a bunch of classmates that actively tried to disrupt the school day making any type of learning very difficult.

The fact that guys with this poor start in life have got onto the flight deck of a commercial aircraft tells a lot about their determination and basic intelligence, just as your post shows the petty negative and insulting attitude that you have.
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Old 5th Jan 2013, 08:37   #15 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
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Sure, anyone can make mistakes or not be good at grammar (though there is little sign of that ), but at least be consistent, even with short and simple words like their and there.

A & C, do you screw up like that on fuel or performance calculations - and have the gall to defend it? Oh dear... What's school got to do with it? You are just a bigot and that's plain nasty.
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Old 5th Jan 2013, 09:38   #16 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Mad Jock: I suspect you are of a much younger generation than a lot of the posters on here. In order to do my engineering degree in Scotland in the 60,s one had to first matriculate. This required a pass at higher level in English. This ensured that graduates could at least express themselves clearly and correctly in their mother tongue!

By the way, I have never found this ability to be a hindrance during my engineering and 47 year flying career!
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Old 5th Jan 2013, 16:47   #17 (permalink)
 
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I was in the thickies class at english and failed O grade first time got it the second and that was required for Uni. I was of the generation when they put your Left hand in a sling to make you write with your right hand if you showed any tendency's in that direction.

My other subjects maths sciences etc I was more than fine with.

As for the numerical side of things I definately don't have any problems with load sheets performance etc. Its usually me picking up the stupid mistakes which are as glaring to me as my mistakes in English are to you.

Actually one of the reasons for leaving professional engineering was to get away from report writing. I only have problems with rereading what I have written just after I have wrtten it, not reading what is written by others.

And actually one of the career choices for dislexics who have reasonable numerical skills is actually being a pilot or airtraffic controller. Apparently we have very good 3D visulisation.

And actually the current pilot training system although not by design is about perfect for dislexics.

Its funny being rubbish at maths and clueless in science is socially acceptable in fact some seem proud of the fact.
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