Flight - Should airline pilots have more/better/different upset recovery training?
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Two contracts ago, I had the pleasure to fly with pilots from all over the world. Probably at least 30 countries, if not more. I learned a lot.
Training and "habits" are very standard in the west, including N and S America, and Europe. Even the way most of us flew. Even on the A320, most pilots would take off and hand fly until stabilized at climb speed on an assigned heading, or to a fix. On approach if the wx was bad, or we were busy, we would use the AP a lot, but usually would turn it off between 1-5000' agl if the weather was good.
Most pilots from Asia are taught to use the autopilot to the maximum extent possible. 100' agl on takeoff, AP on. 500' agl on landing. Every single flight. There are a lot of old TRE's on airbuses that still teach this, and to fly "Managed" descents almost exclusively. When they get a vector off the arrival, they have no idea how to calculate and monitor a descent.
I believed Airbus has changed their tune, and recommend hand flying for the past few years.
A lot of airlines in Asia require the use of autothrottles as SOP. Even a few big ones where the flight department is run by expats.
UA training in a sim should be required, but I fully agree that it is not enough. You need some initial training to get the spatial stimulus. AF447 should have never happened.
At the end of the day, the companies are always trying to reduce costs, including training costs. In the US, we had 4 hull losses at regional airlines in the last decade that should never have happened, including one high altitude stall to a crash. The response at the FAA was to require airlines to raise the minimums for FO's to 1500 hours. Great, but in 2014 when that law kicks in, they will soon find that they cannot fill their cockpits.
For pilots, it is our responsibility to maintain our own basic handling skills. When I flew long haul on 767 and 777's a lot of us would take off and hand fly to final cruising altitude, as we only got a few legs a month. We had to take the opportunity we had. Can't go all the way now because of RVSM (AP required).
Training and "habits" are very standard in the west, including N and S America, and Europe. Even the way most of us flew. Even on the A320, most pilots would take off and hand fly until stabilized at climb speed on an assigned heading, or to a fix. On approach if the wx was bad, or we were busy, we would use the AP a lot, but usually would turn it off between 1-5000' agl if the weather was good.
Most pilots from Asia are taught to use the autopilot to the maximum extent possible. 100' agl on takeoff, AP on. 500' agl on landing. Every single flight. There are a lot of old TRE's on airbuses that still teach this, and to fly "Managed" descents almost exclusively. When they get a vector off the arrival, they have no idea how to calculate and monitor a descent.
I believed Airbus has changed their tune, and recommend hand flying for the past few years.
A lot of airlines in Asia require the use of autothrottles as SOP. Even a few big ones where the flight department is run by expats.
UA training in a sim should be required, but I fully agree that it is not enough. You need some initial training to get the spatial stimulus. AF447 should have never happened.
At the end of the day, the companies are always trying to reduce costs, including training costs. In the US, we had 4 hull losses at regional airlines in the last decade that should never have happened, including one high altitude stall to a crash. The response at the FAA was to require airlines to raise the minimums for FO's to 1500 hours. Great, but in 2014 when that law kicks in, they will soon find that they cannot fill their cockpits.
For pilots, it is our responsibility to maintain our own basic handling skills. When I flew long haul on 767 and 777's a lot of us would take off and hand fly to final cruising altitude, as we only got a few legs a month. We had to take the opportunity we had. Can't go all the way now because of RVSM (AP required).
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The young Kennedy, not qualified in IMC, unable to interpret his instruments, dove into the sea off Martha's Vinyard. The rare accidents attributable to loss of control in major public transport aircraft take place at night or in IMC, possibly because the ASI is unreliable, or the pilot, startled, takes inappropriate action on the controls. Or the pilot is unable to understand what the instruments are telling him.
Training on the simulator in full motion is so hard on the hydraulics that the engineers would rather shut the function down. Managing a big jet with all that inertia is not really as easy as speed/bank/pitch in a smaller craft. How can new pilots be given the right training so that even when startled, they don't pull instead of push.....
Training on the simulator in full motion is so hard on the hydraulics that the engineers would rather shut the function down. Managing a big jet with all that inertia is not really as easy as speed/bank/pitch in a smaller craft. How can new pilots be given the right training so that even when startled, they don't pull instead of push.....
I posted the reference to Handling the Big jets circa 1967 because it was as relevant then as it is now. I flew the Trident with trainers who used the autopilot as much as possible and auto throttle was mandatory except with an engine failure when it was not allowed to be used as uncertified.
Our chief instructor had a reputation which was enhanced during his 1011 transition as he used the autopilot as much as possible. Basically the guy who wrote the manual either couldn't fly or was frightened of flying manually.
Until you educate or change those at the top it will still be talked about in another 45 years....fortunately I won't be about to say I told you so.
Our chief instructor had a reputation which was enhanced during his 1011 transition as he used the autopilot as much as possible. Basically the guy who wrote the manual either couldn't fly or was frightened of flying manually.
Until you educate or change those at the top it will still be talked about in another 45 years....fortunately I won't be about to say I told you so.
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Mary,
Please contact ICATEE direct. It is possible via the website.
Glad to find somone who is interested in a positive training outcome.
Please contact ICATEE direct. It is possible via the website.
Glad to find somone who is interested in a positive training outcome.
Last edited by 4Greens; 27th Nov 2012 at 18:43. Reason: wrong name
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For pilots, it is our responsibility to maintain our own basic handling skills. When I flew long haul on 767 and 777's a lot of us would take off and hand fly to final cruising altitude, as we only got a few legs a month. We had to take the opportunity we had. Can't go all the way now because of RVSM (AP required).
Actually, I believe in RVSM AP is only required to be engaged during cruise flight.
Actually, I believe in RVSM AP is only required to be engaged during cruise flight.
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Why any airline would require autopilot being on during 98 % of the flight only says their pilots can't fly without it. I flew with three airlines and none required it to be on at all. I guess I am lucky to be retired now and not have to deal with it. 95% of my flying is with an airline that has not hired in 10 years so don't have to worry about it yet. Yes, I know about the new separation rules.
For pilots, it is our responsibility to maintain our own basic handling skills. When I flew long haul on 767 and 777's a lot of us would take off and hand fly to final cruising altitude, as we only got a few legs a month. We had to take the opportunity we had
It was 52 years ago when David Davies wrote his book "Handling the Big Jets" yet it remains arguably one of the most readable books on airmanship for airline pilots ever written. One memorable paragraph in the book that has always struck a chord with this reader, is where Davies wrote: "Airline flying really is money for old rope most of the time; but when things get hairy then you earn your pay. As we get older we all become slightly jaded, slightly more tired - and this is a bit of a trap. The demand of jet transport flying can best be met by enthusiasm. Personal enthusiasm for the job is beyond value because it is a self-productive force, and those who have it do not have to be pushed into practice and the search for knowledge. Enthusiasm generates its own protection. This is the frame of mind which needs to be developed for the best execution of the airline pilot's task."
D.P Davies added: "Finally, do not be lazy in your professional lives. The autopilot is a great comfort, so are the flight director and the approach coupler. But do not get into the position where you need these devices to complete the flight. Keep in practice in raw ILS, particularly in crosswinds. Keep in practice in hand-flying the aeroplane at altitude and in making purely visual approaches"
When that was written the automatics were not nearly as sophisticated as they are now. But his words of advice still stand the test of time. Although some companies require their crews to engage the automatic pilot soon after take off and leave them engaged until short final, not every chief pilot feels that is really necessary. Some leave the automatics decision to the captain; in other words, flexibility is encouraged. That enlightened attitude is unfortunately quite rare nowadays.
The problem being, the more brain-washed into automatics some pilots may become, the less confident they have in their own ability to hand fly without the crutch of the flight director or other goodies. This leads to what we now know as automatics addiction or automatics dependency - just what David Davies warned against. I suspect that was happening in his day as well - hence his words of caution. The inevitable downhill slide occurs causing some captains to rationalise their own lack of handling confidence by also discouraging their young enthusiastic first officers against practicing hand flying in general. Soon the first officers lose their manual flying confidence.. One day they become captains and the inevitable vicious circle starts again Which is now the current situation in airlines large and small around the world.
I believe if pilots were actively encouraged through company SOP to practice their hand flying skills on instruments within commonsense parameters, the bogey of Loss of Control accidents would reduce over time. That said, there will be rare events requiring superb handling skills and this is why the vital importance of training in the simulator for unusual attitude recoveries will always remain.
D.B. Davies sage advice should be framed and displayed in every crew room..
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Flight - Should airline pilots have more/better/different upset recovery training?
I believe, and practiced, getting to know your aircraft in good and bad situations, leading to confidence building trust in the recoverability of any unusual attitudes it instills in pilots....is of paramount importance in
piloting aircraft (or driving cars in adverse conditions etc)
I am afraid that automisation has lulled the aviation community in a sense of submission to leave it to the computers to handle the flying. No wonder that some pilots don't even qualify to fly a Tiger Moth (well, that is...) !
piloting aircraft (or driving cars in adverse conditions etc)
I am afraid that automisation has lulled the aviation community in a sense of submission to leave it to the computers to handle the flying. No wonder that some pilots don't even qualify to fly a Tiger Moth (well, that is...) !
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We aren't the same breed of pilots that flew the DC3 and 707 types. It is sad but that is where we are at with the new pilots. I don't think we can change this because management looks at the bottom line.
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Management doesn't care if you can recover from an upset because the computer doesn't have that input. Air France lost an Airbus a couple of years ago because of two pilots that couldn't fly without automation. They still don't care.
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Quote:
"Air France lost an Airbus a couple of years ago because of two pilots that couldn't fly without automation. They still don't care."
May I try to differ from that statement (respectfully, I understand your anger, and share it, too): they do care, but they do not know how to solve the training issue.I have read this thread and I share most of the thoughts expressed...although I do not like to play the old warrior, I come from a generation that was trained at things which would scare the young modern pilots to death...flying aerobatics at very low altitude and at night (training in the french navy 1969) training at aerobatics under the hood with needle and ball ,the speed, and nothing else etc...But even if you are at ease with unusual attitudes, even if your experience enables you to stay cool when suddenly wake turbulence you should have avoided sends you at 80° bank on final approach...you have to keep in mind the fact that you no longer fly the solid, simple aircrafts we knew. All the things I have read in this thread seem to imply that when you act on the yoke, or sidestick, the plane will respond. Take the Air France A330, and its crash, since you speak of that company. I will certainly not reopen the thread here, all has been said elsewhere. Let us not even think of "they did not do this, or that"...let us just look at what they did, right or wrong, and the result on the flight controls:
they did not trim the aircraft...it trimmed itself UP to the very end of the THS capabilities, silently. When the pilot (time 02H12'35'') decides to use forward stick, not long I admit, and then neutral stick...the elevator goes from 30° up to 20° up and stays there! Seeking for an accelaration, and not responding directly to the stick command. It is all very well to ask for aerobatic training, but you will not win aerobatic competitions in a plane which keep the elevator up when you push the stick forward. Let us face it, on our new planes, you must avoid dire situations, because once really out of the normal operating envelope, your piloting skills may not be enough. the Perpignan pilot was experienced and competent, but he never could get in phase with his aircraft...
"Air France lost an Airbus a couple of years ago because of two pilots that couldn't fly without automation. They still don't care."
May I try to differ from that statement (respectfully, I understand your anger, and share it, too): they do care, but they do not know how to solve the training issue.I have read this thread and I share most of the thoughts expressed...although I do not like to play the old warrior, I come from a generation that was trained at things which would scare the young modern pilots to death...flying aerobatics at very low altitude and at night (training in the french navy 1969) training at aerobatics under the hood with needle and ball ,the speed, and nothing else etc...But even if you are at ease with unusual attitudes, even if your experience enables you to stay cool when suddenly wake turbulence you should have avoided sends you at 80° bank on final approach...you have to keep in mind the fact that you no longer fly the solid, simple aircrafts we knew. All the things I have read in this thread seem to imply that when you act on the yoke, or sidestick, the plane will respond. Take the Air France A330, and its crash, since you speak of that company. I will certainly not reopen the thread here, all has been said elsewhere. Let us not even think of "they did not do this, or that"...let us just look at what they did, right or wrong, and the result on the flight controls:
they did not trim the aircraft...it trimmed itself UP to the very end of the THS capabilities, silently. When the pilot (time 02H12'35'') decides to use forward stick, not long I admit, and then neutral stick...the elevator goes from 30° up to 20° up and stays there! Seeking for an accelaration, and not responding directly to the stick command. It is all very well to ask for aerobatic training, but you will not win aerobatic competitions in a plane which keep the elevator up when you push the stick forward. Let us face it, on our new planes, you must avoid dire situations, because once really out of the normal operating envelope, your piloting skills may not be enough. the Perpignan pilot was experienced and competent, but he never could get in phase with his aircraft...
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In the 80's B732 we flew to the most major & minor airfields: those with all the aids, those with almost nothing; no radar, no DME, perhaps only an NDB & VASI. If really necessary an NDB let down on time and altitude, but usually it was a day time visual. This was the most common into small Greek islands. If you were lucky the larger ones had an ILS. However, on a clear day a visual was the norm; even into LGW, LTN, MAN etc. The a/c had only 1 DME as a range aid. The whole descent had all been done on 1 DME from FL350 and if you spooled up before 1500' you bought the beers. I'm not hankering for the good old days; it was hard work, but satisfying. A visual was the norm using Mk.1 eyeball and knowledgeable control of the parameters necessary to make it work. One of my last airlines, there've been a few, dissuaded against visuals. If necessary it could not be flown shorter than 4nm and a VNAV LNAV route had to be constructed to 4nm to aid the profile. Good god! Every medical you have your eyes tested; every 6 months you have your skills tested. You pass and then you are not allowed to use them. No wonder there are some out there who can not do the basics and do not know how to in any case. Shame on such a philosophy. It was all about saving money due to avoiding G/A's. So when the poo hits the propellor the crew will be hard pushed to sort it out. Trained robotic button pushing monkeys; not pilots. True pilots can do both in their sleep. Even the button pushing is done as per rigid SOP's rather than understanding exactly what is going on and allowing you to chose the best method for the job in hand: even down to what CDU page you have for every phase of flight. Good God almighty. Pontious would turn in his grave never mind Ernest K. G. I fear the pendulum has swung fully to one side. What will take it to swing back to a more sensible centre? sadly too many smoking holes. Every time I watch Air Crash investigation I cringe and wonder how many times something similar has 'nearly' happened. I do not suggest we all fly like Bush Pilots or Flying Alaska jockies, but we should be able to do the basics. There are some things about flying a jet which are basic principles and don't change from a cherokee. We learnt it on the job. It was the norm. Now the HOT says there is not enough simulator time to teach these skills. Ouch! I fear not enough out there can do those; and whose fault is that? CAA's or the airline?
I do not believe flying manually at constant power and speed upto FL XYZ is keeping manual flying skills honed. It is the idle descent to a CDA LDA to a visual or visual to ILS/VOR/NDB finals manually flying through flap extension while keeping on profile that will keep your skills honed. You need to manage speed, power, attitude and configuration to a LDA/CDA. It is that which is discouraged for commercial reasons. A sad day. The saddest thing is if you want to enjoy flying don't become an airline pilot.
I do not believe flying manually at constant power and speed upto FL XYZ is keeping manual flying skills honed. It is the idle descent to a CDA LDA to a visual or visual to ILS/VOR/NDB finals manually flying through flap extension while keeping on profile that will keep your skills honed. You need to manage speed, power, attitude and configuration to a LDA/CDA. It is that which is discouraged for commercial reasons. A sad day. The saddest thing is if you want to enjoy flying don't become an airline pilot.
Last edited by RAT 5; 29th Nov 2012 at 12:52.
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Agree entirely with the previous post. As an old fogey with military and airline experience, I have consistenly argued for a guarded switch that when activated turns the machine back into a real aircraft that flies normally.
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Never mind 'Handling the Big Jets', the problems seem to be at a more basic level. A more suitable bit of bedtime reading, despite its dated graphics, is that classic, 'Stick & Rudder'. Understand what Langewiesche says and all will be well.
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unusual attitudes in a fighter/trainer capable of high G operations, with an ejection seat, is light years apart from doing unusual attitudes in an airliner.
I wish each airliner required or offered acrobatic training. Learning to control your fear level is a huge positive from acro training.
I wish each airliner required or offered acrobatic training. Learning to control your fear level is a huge positive from acro training.
Last edited by misd-agin; 29th Nov 2012 at 16:26.
upset training
Well, actually they are not THAT different, in fact quite similar. Earlier, I quoted DP Davies advice on recovering from an upset is fundamentally the same as taught in jet trainers and fighters in the RAF:
Deal with speed and trend.
Use aileron to roll wings level.
Pitch to nearest (up or down) horizon.
Stay off the rudder !
We did it, under the hood, with turn indicator and pressure instruments only because the AH could/would topple. I guess the modern ADIs are untopplable so recovery should be straightforward with modern equipment
I still remember that training both as student and instructor as clear as day and I passionately believe that ALL pilots should have the training and knowledge to recover from ANY recoverable upset.
I would also argue that a pilot trained to recover from upsets is more likely to be able to avoid them in the first place. !!
and 4 greens isn't it actually TWO switches, AP and AT disconnect !
Deal with speed and trend.
Use aileron to roll wings level.
Pitch to nearest (up or down) horizon.
Stay off the rudder !
We did it, under the hood, with turn indicator and pressure instruments only because the AH could/would topple. I guess the modern ADIs are untopplable so recovery should be straightforward with modern equipment
I still remember that training both as student and instructor as clear as day and I passionately believe that ALL pilots should have the training and knowledge to recover from ANY recoverable upset.
I would also argue that a pilot trained to recover from upsets is more likely to be able to avoid them in the first place. !!
and 4 greens isn't it actually TWO switches, AP and AT disconnect !
Last edited by RetiredBA/BY; 29th Nov 2012 at 16:48.
