No Engine Taxi
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No Engine Taxi
So I want to hear from everybody on where there thoughts and feeling are in respect to the future of taxiing aircraft. Electric taxi is coming into the market on a number of airlines and on both boeing and airbus and soon. Retraining, new habits and new flows.....what do you think?
Snowball
Not a snowball's chance in hell. There are pages and pages of this on another thread.
Weight of electric motors if you go down that route. Cost of extra tugs/drivers/ training/taxiways/beefing up the nosegear if you go down that route.
Do some research (search button), stop clogging up the forum with junk and let's discuss something meaningful that's not straight out of Harry P .
Weight of electric motors if you go down that route. Cost of extra tugs/drivers/ training/taxiways/beefing up the nosegear if you go down that route.
Do some research (search button), stop clogging up the forum with junk and let's discuss something meaningful that's not straight out of Harry P .
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S,
Not only have I done my research but it is my full time career! You obviously do not have much current knowledge of whats is going on in the industry and where developments have been made. I appreciate your response but it was unwarranted and disrespectful. There is no extra personnel or equipment nor any upgrades to taxi ways. These systems will be on aircraft in the next 2 years. Training for such systems can be built into the recurrent training cycle.
Not only have I done my research but it is my full time career! You obviously do not have much current knowledge of whats is going on in the industry and where developments have been made. I appreciate your response but it was unwarranted and disrespectful. There is no extra personnel or equipment nor any upgrades to taxi ways. These systems will be on aircraft in the next 2 years. Training for such systems can be built into the recurrent training cycle.
Barking
Not disrespectful at all. Go and have a read of this-search for: Tugs versus aircraft engines: a ground handling question.
An electric motor might just work on a turbo prop, but where's the fuel saving there. If a bloody great tug can't manage a fully laden 777/747/380/340/330 (and can just cope with an unladen one) you will have to have a pretty big electric motor to do what the tug can't. And how will you power the motor-don't tell me-by running the engines to provide generated power. Wow, I wish I'd thought of that. If the electric motor reduces the payload by one seat due to it's weight (and I suspect it will be rather heavier than that) then the beancounters will have none of it in the first place. Bear in mind that you will have to carry this piece of equipment everywhere, attached somehow to the gear, and retract with it. Electric motors are essentially copper windings and heavy. Concorde didn't even have an APU due to weight problems and she guzzled gas like no other.
If you travel on the London Underground district line you can go to Dagenham East, which is where you should get off. That's two stops past Barking (mad).
No disrespect intended of course...just my thoughts....which you invited.
An electric motor might just work on a turbo prop, but where's the fuel saving there. If a bloody great tug can't manage a fully laden 777/747/380/340/330 (and can just cope with an unladen one) you will have to have a pretty big electric motor to do what the tug can't. And how will you power the motor-don't tell me-by running the engines to provide generated power. Wow, I wish I'd thought of that. If the electric motor reduces the payload by one seat due to it's weight (and I suspect it will be rather heavier than that) then the beancounters will have none of it in the first place. Bear in mind that you will have to carry this piece of equipment everywhere, attached somehow to the gear, and retract with it. Electric motors are essentially copper windings and heavy. Concorde didn't even have an APU due to weight problems and she guzzled gas like no other.
If you travel on the London Underground district line you can go to Dagenham East, which is where you should get off. That's two stops past Barking (mad).
No disrespect intended of course...just my thoughts....which you invited.
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"The "green" taxiing system will be offered as an option on the Airbus A320neo, a version of the Airbus A320 with more fuel-efficient engines that Airbus plans to bring to market in 2015. Fuel is a major portion of an airline's operating costs, and with the price of fuel on the rise carriers are struggling to reduce consumption wherever possible.
The system consists of electric motors inside the wheels of an aircraft's main landing gear that will be powered by the aircraft's auxiliary power unit while taxiing, Safran Chairman and Chief Executive Jean-Paul Hertemann said. As the planes will be able to move around autonomously, it will eliminate the need for airport tugs to maneuver planes. The system will allow planes to move backwards as well as forwards, for example, when leaving their boarding gate."
Looks to me like Honeywell are already well on the way to having it developed...
The system consists of electric motors inside the wheels of an aircraft's main landing gear that will be powered by the aircraft's auxiliary power unit while taxiing, Safran Chairman and Chief Executive Jean-Paul Hertemann said. As the planes will be able to move around autonomously, it will eliminate the need for airport tugs to maneuver planes. The system will allow planes to move backwards as well as forwards, for example, when leaving their boarding gate."
Looks to me like Honeywell are already well on the way to having it developed...
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The market for these aircraft is substantially larger than most anticipate. Airbus currently has orders for over 600 new A320 Neos and the electri taxi systems will be coming to market for narrow body aircraft both new and retrofit. Safran Honeywell are making a model for the main gear assembly and Wheeltug is making one for the nose gear. Safran currently has made no ground on the development since last year at Farnborough where they showed the same display as this year in Paris. WheelTug is already conducting on aircraft testing with development in the final stages. Both systems are designed to pushback from the gate and taxi all the way to the runway via an electric motor in the wheel powered by the APU. The wieght on the system is nuetral when considering the amount of fuel saved from carrying on board for taxi time. You can literaly depart the gate with min fuel for the flight and carry more bags and pax for a longer haul carrying 45 minutes less worth of fuel.
This system is becoming such a big hit with the number crunchers everywhere because of many reasons. The Eco reason on emissions while on the ground is greatly impacted and the life of engines is extended. Also, time is a big cost for airlines and when you consider the time between push back and spin up of the engines, the time saved adds up quick.
This system is becoming such a big hit with the number crunchers everywhere because of many reasons. The Eco reason on emissions while on the ground is greatly impacted and the life of engines is extended. Also, time is a big cost for airlines and when you consider the time between push back and spin up of the engines, the time saved adds up quick.
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Tests were done in 2005 using a 767 and were successful. More tests were done on a fully weighed down 737-800 in november of last year and were successful through 6 inches of snow and ice.
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Sorry Sygyzy..
.. but your first reply was factually wrong ..and a tad abrupt!
Those DC motors will have to incorporate reduction gearboxes to substantially reduce the motor's speed to the desired mainwheel speed ... and with such substantial reduction will come the benefit of hugely increased torque .. DC power from the APU (sipping fuel!) will be more than adequate. In any case, there is more than just fuel consumption here; there is a continuing need to satisfy the environmentalists and Greens that the reduction in air pollution which results from long taxy-runs (before take-off and after landing) .. is being reduced as far as practically possible. My single concern would be commencing a take-off roll just a minute or two after engine-start.. even with all Ts and Ps in the green; but I guess the engine manufacturers know best about that. Almost silent taxying then..rabbits and hares beware! TP
Those DC motors will have to incorporate reduction gearboxes to substantially reduce the motor's speed to the desired mainwheel speed ... and with such substantial reduction will come the benefit of hugely increased torque .. DC power from the APU (sipping fuel!) will be more than adequate. In any case, there is more than just fuel consumption here; there is a continuing need to satisfy the environmentalists and Greens that the reduction in air pollution which results from long taxy-runs (before take-off and after landing) .. is being reduced as far as practically possible. My single concern would be commencing a take-off roll just a minute or two after engine-start.. even with all Ts and Ps in the green; but I guess the engine manufacturers know best about that. Almost silent taxying then..rabbits and hares beware! TP
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WheelTug is running prototype tests in Prague this week. The plan is to enter service late 2013.
preview snippet of today's tests. The full video will appear in a couple of weeks.
Come & see WheelTug at Farnborough.
Come & see WheelTug at Farnborough.
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neat idea...until the motor catches on fire
neat idea, except at our airline the first flight of the day has to have 5minutes of engine running at idle/taxi prior to takeoff (warm up)
great idea except for the weight
great idea except when the APU is on MEL
great idea except I'd rather have internal stairs as weight instead of electric motors
great idea except for ice on the runway/taxiway and the need for reverse thrust to stop
neat idea, except at our airline the first flight of the day has to have 5minutes of engine running at idle/taxi prior to takeoff (warm up)
great idea except for the weight
great idea except when the APU is on MEL
great idea except I'd rather have internal stairs as weight instead of electric motors
great idea except for ice on the runway/taxiway and the need for reverse thrust to stop
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AC motors fail to open circuit, not closed circuit. Naturally there is thermal overload protection.
It weighs no more than the fuel that won't need to be carried.
The system will be fully FAA certified.
For performance on snow, see
& it was run on one wheel too!
To stop, apply the brakes...
It weighs no more than the fuel that won't need to be carried.
The system will be fully FAA certified.
For performance on snow, see
To stop, apply the brakes...
Last edited by rahosi; 21st Jun 2012 at 01:00.
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This system looks fuly external, the battery cart it is pulling has to have a signifant weight and to mention if placed internal would have a significant impact on performance. I would like to see more, what sort of electrical load is expected? Can the APU of the test vehicle handle it? As we se now it is nothing more than an external tug, not driven by a ground operator.
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You are referring to the 2010 test which was just that - for the purpose of gathering data and trying out various components.
This weeks tests are a massive step forward, (although not flight capable). integral with the wheel & powered off the APU.
Naturally the final version will be FAA certified & integrated - giving the pilot autonomous control.
It wasn't a battery cart. It contained the inverter & measuring equipment. A STANDARD APU has sufficient spare capacity for WheelTug's twin Chorus Motors. The detail is commercially sensitive.
The weight of the system is not more than the weight of the fuel that won't need to be loaded. The WheelTug system controls and data flow will not interface with any other aircraft systems.
The savings to be made come to about US$600,000 (or more) per year per aircraft. But the benefits don't stop there. Time, engine wear, safety & environmental. Imagine being almost at the runway when curfew hours end & in the air 5 minutes later!
WheelTug is planned to enter service late 2013. More detail is on the WheelTug Website There is also a benefits calculator.
This weeks tests are a massive step forward, (although not flight capable). integral with the wheel & powered off the APU.
Naturally the final version will be FAA certified & integrated - giving the pilot autonomous control.
It wasn't a battery cart. It contained the inverter & measuring equipment. A STANDARD APU has sufficient spare capacity for WheelTug's twin Chorus Motors. The detail is commercially sensitive.
The weight of the system is not more than the weight of the fuel that won't need to be loaded. The WheelTug system controls and data flow will not interface with any other aircraft systems.
The savings to be made come to about US$600,000 (or more) per year per aircraft. But the benefits don't stop there. Time, engine wear, safety & environmental. Imagine being almost at the runway when curfew hours end & in the air 5 minutes later!
WheelTug is planned to enter service late 2013. More detail is on the WheelTug Website There is also a benefits calculator.
We'll see
Still not convinced, and to date your customer line-up shows no interest by the 'big boys', nor the locos, who stand to gain most from this I'd have thought with their short turnaround times. Since I doubt that Jet nor Alitalia have any real money I suppose they could be considered your loss leaders-if it provides the savings as shown on paper.
Certfication/SOP's will be interesting too, as (eg) flaps on the pre departure checks have been brought nearer and nearer to leaving the gate as crews kept forgetting them. (Somewhat fundamental, that). How long before we hear of a 'wheeltug' equipped a/c trying to get airborne with just 3 of the 4 BRTs turning. Regulators just might insist that engines are started before taxi or 10/15mins before potential take off. Crews might do that anyway. Savings would then go down the jetpipe again.
$600k pa is $12000 per WEEK per a/c in savings...
I wish you luck-and watch this space.
BRT=Big Round Thing.
Certfication/SOP's will be interesting too, as (eg) flaps on the pre departure checks have been brought nearer and nearer to leaving the gate as crews kept forgetting them. (Somewhat fundamental, that). How long before we hear of a 'wheeltug' equipped a/c trying to get airborne with just 3 of the 4 BRTs turning. Regulators just might insist that engines are started before taxi or 10/15mins before potential take off. Crews might do that anyway. Savings would then go down the jetpipe again.
$600k pa is $12000 per WEEK per a/c in savings...
I wish you luck-and watch this space.
BRT=Big Round Thing.
Last edited by Sygyzy; 21st Jun 2012 at 20:05.
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And El Al & Israir. Plus look at the partner list of 'Big Boys'.
Why would 'customers' need money? It will be leased for a percentage of the savings. Win Win really. For no cost, save money and operate greener & safer! ~6% of operating costs.
Certification is being handled by Newport who have an outstanding track record of successfully managing complex certification programs for the world's largest aerospace firms.
The savings calculations have been verified by many of the 'big boys'. The fringe savings increase that conservative $600K figure. you might be shocked at aircraft profit margins. WheelTug per aircraft savings per flight or year are a multiple of that. And which airline will watch its competitors adopt WheelTug & not follow suit... Try the calculator on the WheelTug website (scroll it down).
Farnborough will be interesting. Hall 4 / A13, July 9th - 15th
The industry 'big boys' in general are heading towards the concept of electric taxi. Boeing
Why would 'customers' need money? It will be leased for a percentage of the savings. Win Win really. For no cost, save money and operate greener & safer! ~6% of operating costs.
Certification is being handled by Newport who have an outstanding track record of successfully managing complex certification programs for the world's largest aerospace firms.
The savings calculations have been verified by many of the 'big boys'. The fringe savings increase that conservative $600K figure. you might be shocked at aircraft profit margins. WheelTug per aircraft savings per flight or year are a multiple of that. And which airline will watch its competitors adopt WheelTug & not follow suit... Try the calculator on the WheelTug website (scroll it down).
Farnborough will be interesting. Hall 4 / A13, July 9th - 15th
The industry 'big boys' in general are heading towards the concept of electric taxi. Boeing
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Where's 'reverse' on this thing?
Okay, looks promising, Limitations on weight, etc. not withstanding.
So how and where do they intend attaching the reversing mirrors?
(Just joking really, as I'm guessing a ground marshaller still required for the back-out - I guess it can still be called a "pushback'.)
So how and where do they intend attaching the reversing mirrors?
(Just joking really, as I'm guessing a ground marshaller still required for the back-out - I guess it can still be called a "pushback'.)
Last edited by Old 'Un; 22nd Jun 2012 at 00:02.
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Loving all these unreasoned 'con' arguments...
A few more positive points I can see....
No tug delays (which can be fairly common depending on your airport), especially when you're running off schedule.
On days of bad slot delays, there's no need for a tug team to be sat underneith your nose (which generally isn't granted anyway as the team will be required elsewhere), all you'll need for departure is a banksman.
Savings in ground handling costs as you aren't paying handling agent 'pushback' fees
A few more positive points I can see....
No tug delays (which can be fairly common depending on your airport), especially when you're running off schedule.
On days of bad slot delays, there's no need for a tug team to be sat underneith your nose (which generally isn't granted anyway as the team will be required elsewhere), all you'll need for departure is a banksman.
Savings in ground handling costs as you aren't paying handling agent 'pushback' fees