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Old 8th Apr 2011, 19:17   #1 (permalink)


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always tough landing with ryanair

on almost 30 flights with ryanair the landing was hard compared to other airlines.

what are the reasons in your opinion?

1) 737-800 is very long and needs this kind of manouver
2) 737-800 needs a strong flare, otherwise is difficult to control at landing
3) a gentle landing requires a long runway, and ryr uses little airports with short runways
4) insufficient training
5) boeing philospophy
6) ryanair policy
7) other....
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Old 8th Apr 2011, 19:28   #2 (permalink)
 
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My opinion: It's not a very forgiving aircraft to land; it's one of the most difficult aircraft I've ever flown in trying to get consistently good landings, speed control is often difficult as it's such a slippy aircraft, the fitting of winglets did not help. They also do a LOT of training as a result of the revolving door policy of employee relations which leads to lots of training flights and inexperienced F/Os. They also fly to a lot of black hole out of the way airfields with minimal lighting. It all adds up.

Also Boeing Policy is a firm touch down, on speed and on the markers. Holding off in the flare to grease it on uses a lot of runway. Passengers perception of a good landing versus the reality are sometimes far apart.

To summarize:

1) 737-800 is very long and needs this kind of manouver

I don't think it is the length necessarily but the -800 is a bit of a cut and paste aircraft with lot's of different generations of the 737 cobbled together and is very much a compromise in some areas!

2) 737-800 needs a strong flare, otherwise is difficult to control at landing

It's not the strength of the flare rather the quality and timing.

3) a gentle landing requires a long runway, and ryr uses little airports with short runways

The runway length should be immaterial. The technique should remain the same regardless of runway length, i.e On Speed, main gear on the aiming points, positive touchdown, retarding measures applied on schedule.

4) insufficient training

For all their faults Ryanair gives lots of sectors to trainees, far and above what other airlines give.

5) boeing philospophy

See point 3.

6) ryanair policy

Ryanair advocates the method described in the Boeing flight crew training manual (FCTM), again point three.

7) other....

Again, it is a slippery bugger and I rarely see anyone touchdown at Vref, it's usually too fast or if you go below Vref trying to correct aggressively in the flare it drops like a brick! Coupled with some black hole airports and very fatiguing rosters. Those are my excuses anyway.

Edit: (P.S I see you are from Paris, so I assume you fly out of BVA? That has one of the highest incidence of hard landings in the company. It's a black hole, like landing on an aircraft carrier, No Papis, a big hump in the runway, rough winds in the winter, that catches even the 'Top Guns" out once in a while...)

Last edited by Telstar; 8th Apr 2011 at 19:43.
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Old 8th Apr 2011, 19:43   #3 (permalink)


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i didnt consider minimum lighting and cat II ILS.

but what if this happens at 1 pm, with perfect weather, with almost no wind, with 7700 ft of runway?

maybe also the condition of the runway surface can play a role?

the feeling with ryanair is that "landings are hard", and the "turbulence perception during flight is high"

is there any explanation for this second fact?
when you fly ryanair you always experience turbulence.
when you fly other airlines you experience turbulence "almost everytime".
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Old 8th Apr 2011, 19:46   #4 (permalink)
 
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I also have around 30 flights with Ryanair, and have only experienced one, what I consider to be, hard landing - at Dublin, because it was windy and we landed sideways. You could repeat this thread for every single airline, because each one will have good landings and bad landings. Perhaps you've just been unlucky?
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Old 8th Apr 2011, 20:07   #5 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Lighting can play a major factor, especially a lack of it in the peripheral vision. CATII/III autolands are silky smooth, the Autopilot does a better job then a lot of Pilots I know.

BVA in particular has a big old hump right at the touchdown point for RWY30, now I've been working consistently over the last few years to flatten this out but alas, it's still there.

As for the turbulence I don't know what to say it must be your perception, in the air it's the same for all airlines.

I see you're new here. Just a tip, posting the same question in two areas of the forum is very bad etiquette and considered not cool. I see you also posted this same question in AAR
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Old 8th Apr 2011, 20:38   #6 (permalink)


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sorry for double posting.
i didnt know the right section for my post.

so, basically it s a combination of the aircraft model, and of the airports.

from a passenger point of view ryanair has a lot of problems (even if i agree that the tickets are very cheap).

small airports, with minimal navigation help, leads to a lot o cancellation and diversions, due to fog, or runway lenght becoming critical due to cat II

bad perception at landing ecause of the "hard landing sensation"
bad perception sometimes in cruise due to frequent turbulence

in the future i will avoid landing late at night with ryanair.
what are the worst ryanair destinations from the pilot point of view?


i really hate paris (lot of cancellations) and ciampino (almost everytime bad landing)
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Old 9th Apr 2011, 06:50   #7 (permalink)
 
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It is a problem that passengers perceptions of safety are massively influenced by how firm the touchdown was. You could bust every limit in the book during the approach and if the touchdown was smooth most passengers would think you did a good job.

Boeing is absolutely clear about not encouraging smooth touchdowns. We all like to do them because of what passengers think, but in many cases a firmer touchdown is safer, particularly on a wet runway. There are obviously limits. But it is very unusual for any damage to occur to the aircraft even when the limits are exceeded. Ironically you can do much more damage striking the tail when holding off too long trying for a smooth touchdown.
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Old 9th Apr 2011, 14:29   #8 (permalink)
 
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Been on the other side as a passenger too Liverpool and Dublin two days ago both landings wear very hard. Liverpool been the worst. Wind was moderate
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Old 10th Apr 2011, 10:25   #9 (permalink)
 
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The 737NG has (IMO) a noticeably 'harder' suspension than older models up to the -500, making landings feel heavier. The longer fuselage also causes slightly more concern about tailscrapes and perhaps subconsciously limits the flare before touchdown some pilots apply. I've flown older-model 737 for 12 years with 3 years on NGs (700s, shorter than 800s).
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Old 11th Apr 2011, 05:57   #10 (permalink)
 
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buy the poor chaps a coffee before descent..
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Old 11th Apr 2011, 17:50   #11 (permalink)


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Angel

Perhaps the 737-800 just like many other mass built types is a bit of a flip of a coin lander and you cannot prescribe what will happen?! At the end of the day you can be as skilled as you like but if your luck isn't there.............

Hello all by the way, new to the forum!!
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Old 11th Apr 2011, 20:32   #12 (permalink)
 
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It is far more the 738 than it is Ryanair - having said that my last two FR landings last year (VLC and EMA) were both very smooth.
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Old 17th Apr 2011, 11:42   #13 (permalink)
 
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I would like to know why then easyjet with their A319 almost always perform touchdowns that are so silky smooth- on several occasions I hadn't even realised we had landed. Ive been on 100+ easyjet flights and nearly everyone is like that. Whereas as all the previous posts say ryanair touchdowns could knock your fillings out. I'm sure its not down solely to the pilots.
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Old 17th Apr 2011, 14:31   #14 (permalink)
 
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The A319 is very easy to land and has a short body so you have no real worries of tailstrike in the flare unless you are doing something very wrong.

For what it is worth as a very regular passenger of Ryanair I would say their landings are average the same as every other airline. Last flight I had was 2 days ago, the pilot greased it into Luton. I struggle to grease it in there in the bus, the runway is short and has a slope at either end. I fly the A321 most of the time, it pretty much lands itself.
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Old 17th Apr 2011, 17:11   #15 (permalink)
 
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Boeing's opinion of what constitutes a good landing and the general public's opinion is significantly different.
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Old 25th Apr 2011, 23:39   #16 (permalink)
 
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Landing speeds on the A319 are generally 15-20 kts slower than the 737-800 especially when the latter lands with flaps 30.
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Old 26th Apr 2011, 06:34   #17 (permalink)
 
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GPugol

There's a note at the top of this forum. I've copied and pasted it here for you. Clearly you missed it the first time around, and then every other time.

Questions If you are a professional pilot or your work involves professional aviation please use this forum for questions. Enthusiasts, please use the 'Spectators Balcony' forum.
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Old 26th Apr 2011, 14:06   #18 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Ryanair Landings

As a retired Pilot, I must admit that the landings that I sit through as a passenger on Ryanair are on the average harder than most of the other airlines that I use.

Tmb
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Old 26th Apr 2011, 14:57   #19 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GPugol View Post
the feeling with ryanair is that "landings are hard", and the "turbulence perception during flight is high"
That is because MOL hasn't been thinking about charging for smooth rides and/or greasy landing,.... but it might be in the pipelind
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Old 28th Apr 2011, 10:10   #20 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
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I'm told that the 738 is difficult to 'grease'. Personally I don't care (within reason) how firm the touchdown is and neither does Mr Boeing. He, like me, would rather be in the touchdown zone, on the centreline, at the right speed, running straight, using the approved landing technique. Anything else is a bonus - and that's whether I'm flying it or the other pilot.
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