Swiss 1311 at Pulkovo on Jan 10th 2010, bird strike
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Swiss 1311 at Pulkovo on Jan 10th 2010, bird strike
Here's a blurb from Incident: Swiss A319 at St. Petersburg on Jan 10th 2010, bird strike:
And here's how it sounded on the radio:
http://www.radioscanner.ru/files/dow...ar10_01_10.mp3
http://www.radioscanner.ru/files/dow...nd10_01_10.mp3
ICAO Level 4, anybody?
A Swiss Airlines Airbus A319-100, registration HB-IPT performing flight LX-1311 from St. Peterburg (Russia) to Zurich (Switzerland) with 123 passengers and 5 crew, was climbing out of Saint Peterburg's Pulkovo Airport, when the crew reported engine (CFM56) vibrations prompting them to return to Pulkovo Airport. The airplane landed safely 40 minutes after departure.
Russia's Transport Prosecution Office reported, that maintenance found evidence of a bird strike in the engine.
Russia's Transport Prosecution Office reported, that maintenance found evidence of a bird strike in the engine.
http://www.radioscanner.ru/files/dow...ar10_01_10.mp3
http://www.radioscanner.ru/files/dow...nd10_01_10.mp3
ICAO Level 4, anybody?
There was an obvious change of controller soon after the emergency was declared, not that he was any better. It seems that a Russian a/c on frequency was doing some handy translation work for the ATCO. Shoddy perhaps, but do you honestly think you're going to get anything better in that part of the world?
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No comment on the English Level...
I've flow myself many, many times into Moscow, St. Petersburg and Samara with teh A320, and I've allways been scared of this kind of situations in their airspace... most of them are really unable to handle an emergency due to a language issue...
It's the only place where they've called me during the takeoff run to ask me to contact departure... the only place I've been changed an SID once airborne... the only place I've not been informed by the controller at any time the braking action was poor until an Emirates 777 that was my preceding traffic was about to overrun the runway (we had to go around)... etc. etc.
I've flow myself many, many times into Moscow, St. Petersburg and Samara with teh A320, and I've allways been scared of this kind of situations in their airspace... most of them are really unable to handle an emergency due to a language issue...
It's the only place where they've called me during the takeoff run to ask me to contact departure... the only place I've been changed an SID once airborne... the only place I've not been informed by the controller at any time the braking action was poor until an Emirates 777 that was my preceding traffic was about to overrun the runway (we had to go around)... etc. etc.
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The RT wasn't "that" bad, well, the female controller wasn't so hot (at least at RT, the rest is supposition
) and the Swiss pilot could have tried something simpler like "engine shut down" when it was obvious the controllers vocabulary didn't seem to encompass bird strike.
What I found more alarming was the "tick tock do you hear the clock" Swiss mentality driving the ship happily round the pattern for a 10 mile final whilst twice reporting vibration/problems in BOTH engines
Don't they remember the Ryanair accident in Ciampino or remember that "tick tock complete the checklist " mentality is sometimes inapproppriate (like when your cockpit is on fire 
) and that arriving on the ground ASAP should be considered.
Weather sounded OK ish for a perhaps radar assisted 180 and reland on the reciprocal (which was actually offered) if BOTH donks were
wounded ? ?
) and the Swiss pilot could have tried something simpler like "engine shut down" when it was obvious the controllers vocabulary didn't seem to encompass bird strike.What I found more alarming was the "tick tock do you hear the clock" Swiss mentality driving the ship happily round the pattern for a 10 mile final whilst twice reporting vibration/problems in BOTH engines
Don't they remember the Ryanair accident in Ciampino or remember that "tick tock complete the checklist " mentality is sometimes inapproppriate (like when your cockpit is on fire ) and that arriving on the ground ASAP should be considered.Weather sounded OK ish for a perhaps radar assisted 180 and reland on the reciprocal (which was actually offered) if BOTH donks were
wounded ? ?
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have to agree with cptplay....RT was not that bad. certainly if you fly outside your country, everywhere RT sounds different. stay on basic. dont talk too much. if you have a "sensor" and realize the guys down on the radio are only level 3.5 give them a chance......speak "like to children" easy and simple. Helps you - helps them.
...anyway did they have actual fire indication - we don't know...if so, make the fire drill...if not....don't cry and taxi to your stand and don't block TWY for no reason....if you are on ground where is the problem......yes tick, tock, tick (nice example),...YES, WE continue the "SOP" even if its worth just
........my god, where is airmanship, common-sense and all this other stupid stuff....as mentioned RT from the airport was not that bad...but maybe those poor guys had some doubt, as the flightdeck was crying for firebrigade inspection....but not any reason visible by the tower, they didn't even understood (like myself) why they blocked the TWY...they coiuld have asked the FA to have a look out of the window instead...but obviously thats not mentioned in any SOP....common-sense, as above is old-fashioned in our days.
to make it short.....not any reason, not any single one...to fingerpoint to the Russian controllers...IMHO they made quite a good, a normal job..nothing to complain about (I listened twice)....they gave immediate radarheading, well maybe not in a ...tick, tock, clock SOP way...but as asked for radar vectors they got on IMMEDIATELY. be honest the frequency was partly garbaged, but then whats about selective hearing.....no one else in English on the radio...so the heading advise In English was for whom????.....and again point out, they offered landing opposite to expedite landing......but tocktock....follow SOP.....One day crews flying into the visible mountain...but they followed SOP...RIP, acc SOP
...anyway did they have actual fire indication - we don't know...if so, make the fire drill...if not....don't cry and taxi to your stand and don't block TWY for no reason....if you are on ground where is the problem......yes tick, tock, tick (nice example),...YES, WE continue the "SOP" even if its worth just
........my god, where is airmanship, common-sense and all this other stupid stuff....as mentioned RT from the airport was not that bad...but maybe those poor guys had some doubt, as the flightdeck was crying for firebrigade inspection....but not any reason visible by the tower, they didn't even understood (like myself) why they blocked the TWY...they coiuld have asked the FA to have a look out of the window instead...but obviously thats not mentioned in any SOP....common-sense, as above is old-fashioned in our days.to make it short.....not any reason, not any single one...to fingerpoint to the Russian controllers...IMHO they made quite a good, a normal job..nothing to complain about (I listened twice)....they gave immediate radarheading, well maybe not in a ...tick, tock, clock SOP way...but as asked for radar vectors they got on IMMEDIATELY. be honest the frequency was partly garbaged, but then whats about selective hearing.....no one else in English on the radio...so the heading advise In English was for whom????.....and again point out, they offered landing opposite to expedite landing......but tocktock....follow SOP.....One day crews flying into the visible mountain...but they followed SOP...RIP, acc SOP
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Captain, who did the traslation, is my freind and has wide experience around the world, so could understand and translate some phrases to controller despite of that fact that vocability was pretty unclear
However, having said, that once there is a potential dual engine failure and actual weather (do not rely to the information passed by controller, he was completely lost by that period of time, RVR was 300m) is pretty bad so no chance to survive "landing to Hudson" but to commence an immediate LVP approach to RW.
Also, do not complain the controller too much: they have their SOP which are very unfreindly and have penalties for any deviation from the SOP, and not all the situations (for sure) are detaily documented there, so the purpose of the ATC SOP is rather to cover their boss as$ and punish the controller, than to have documented procedures and governance for emergency and abnormal situations
However, having said, that once there is a potential dual engine failure and actual weather (do not rely to the information passed by controller, he was completely lost by that period of time, RVR was 300m) is pretty bad so no chance to survive "landing to Hudson" but to commence an immediate LVP approach to RW.
Also, do not complain the controller too much: they have their SOP which are very unfreindly and have penalties for any deviation from the SOP, and not all the situations (for sure) are detaily documented there, so the purpose of the ATC SOP is rather to cover their boss as$ and punish the controller, than to have documented procedures and governance for emergency and abnormal situations
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Hey friends! Be sure that ALL Russian controllers will have de jure reached ICAO level 4 by the end of the year. Their heads, chiefs and bosses are simply afraid of being considered as unskilled workers and liars in IAC's opinion. However, they will de facto have too bad English to serve international flights at proper level.
I say so because I'm real controller in Russia and I'm crying for that situation here...
I say so because I'm real controller in Russia and I'm crying for that situation here...
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Level 4 vs. professional behaviour
The Russian controllers do neither manage to produce proper sentences in plain English nor do they behave professionally. An ATCO is supposed to support a pilot by leaving him in peace...(check ATCOs in Manchester after the Thomas Cook engine failure) and not to ask several times "statistical" questions thus distracting the pilot from handling the situation!
I agree that the Swiss pilot's behavior on ground is not ideal, but I guess that's the way they're trained (limit the damage by shutting down the damaged engine(s), delegate as much as one can to ground support, make sure everybody is in the loop).
In flight though, they handled the critical situation in a very professional way. High vibrations don't necessarily mean engine fire or failure, they are rather to be considered as a caution and a prompt for a quick return to the field. Thus flying a normal traffic pattern under radar seems quite reasonable to me. Don't forget: ECAM, gear trouble, engine vibrations, low visibility weather conditions and last but not least an overweight situation all need assessment and consideration before landing. It is after all important to be completely aware of the status of one's aircraft before touching down overweight (reversers available? which breaking system available? braking with anti-skid or without? Is there a possibility of a tire burst if the brake pedals are pushed too hard...etc.)
I heard from a friend of mine that Russian support continued even after the incident: the immigration officers didn't allow the crew to enter Russia and spend the night in St.Petersburg because they could neither produce a valid visa nor a Gen.Dec. (the flight is always operated as a turn-around flight). After this emergency, the crew had to run to catch a Lufthansa flight to return to Zürich via Frankfurt!
I agree that the Swiss pilot's behavior on ground is not ideal, but I guess that's the way they're trained (limit the damage by shutting down the damaged engine(s), delegate as much as one can to ground support, make sure everybody is in the loop).
In flight though, they handled the critical situation in a very professional way. High vibrations don't necessarily mean engine fire or failure, they are rather to be considered as a caution and a prompt for a quick return to the field. Thus flying a normal traffic pattern under radar seems quite reasonable to me. Don't forget: ECAM, gear trouble, engine vibrations, low visibility weather conditions and last but not least an overweight situation all need assessment and consideration before landing. It is after all important to be completely aware of the status of one's aircraft before touching down overweight (reversers available? which breaking system available? braking with anti-skid or without? Is there a possibility of a tire burst if the brake pedals are pushed too hard...etc.)
I heard from a friend of mine that Russian support continued even after the incident: the immigration officers didn't allow the crew to enter Russia and spend the night in St.Petersburg because they could neither produce a valid visa nor a Gen.Dec. (the flight is always operated as a turn-around flight). After this emergency, the crew had to run to catch a Lufthansa flight to return to Zürich via Frankfurt!
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The approach chap was more or less ok, (you engage bird?) the folks in the tower were the problem. The girl had no clue. There should be a better standard if English is the common language here.
The Swiss chap said that he had shut down both engines, which doesn't surprise me at all. Shut down the engines before they catch fire underneath your backside. Once again it was pretty clear that they wanted a tug. I think tractor was a better word for the atcos...but they didn't pick up on that. More training required here, both in English and recurrent emergency training so that you know what to expect when an aircraft lands with that sort of problem. Go Icao level 4!
The Swiss chap said that he had shut down both engines, which doesn't surprise me at all. Shut down the engines before they catch fire underneath your backside. Once again it was pretty clear that they wanted a tug. I think tractor was a better word for the atcos...but they didn't pick up on that. More training required here, both in English and recurrent emergency training so that you know what to expect when an aircraft lands with that sort of problem. Go Icao level 4!
