david 3354

Firstly I know this has been done to death but here's my opinion and I would like somebody to tell me I'm wrong:

Seems to me CTC was having a little trouble finding people to pay 60 grand to get no job and end up stacking shelves to service the debt. Well now thats no problem, people are falling over themselves, not only to pay 60k and thats what ur doing but 160 for the privilege of applying. I could go to any school and they'd pay me 160 if they thought I would train with them!

All credit to CTC its brilliant, wish I could do a PR job like that.

A good friend of mine has an MSc in Economics and Finance and we agree:

CTC earn 60k + from the training and then you get your money back when you start work. Thats the same with ANY training or else you wouldnt do it, you get paid more if you pay for your own training, less if they pay for it initially.

So its not too bad, not better than BA certainly, because they had a 60k reason to give you a job, all CTC has is a moral obligation and thats not woth the paper its written on.

I have a PPl and 70 hours, I could do my own training for 25k and then get a job.

The only reason to pay 65 to CTC is for the introduction to JMC et al, and is it worth it?
As far as I can see they have no particular reason to give you a job except that you come from a good school, they could just as easily take a 737 pilot with 2000 hrs and no job at the mo.

Yes Ive applied and yes ive got to the 3rd stage.
Them doing me a favour?
Two businesses?
NEVER
im doing them a 40k one

cheers

d

Pilot Pete

david

I see what you are saying, but I think you are being a bit harsh. Your money gets you slightly more than an 'introduction' to the airlines you mention. They are working together, in partnership to provide what the airlines want. If the airlines didn't want younger guys with low hours they wouldn't use CTC.

One of the biggest points to remember is that the airlines you quote are actively looking at future pilot requirements and they like the product that CTC provides them with, an added bonus to the fact that the risk of failure is taken away from the airline is the fact that a low hours guy is several years away from qualifying for command and one thing that annoyed the CP at jmc was all the more experienced guys bleating for a command assessment when they were still a number of years away on the seniority list.

None of us can predict future economic events, CTC and the airlines included. So if another event like 9/11 were to occur just as you were to start with said airline then thats just tough. The opposite side of the coin is if you paid up front for all of your training, got a direct entry F/O job with the same airline and then world events transpired against you and you found yourself on redundancy. Been there, done that. I luckily didn't have any ongoing debt to service, but pals of mine did, and still do. Nobody gave them any guarantees, so I don't see what's so different.

CTC are very well respected in the industry and I know a couple of guys personally who were not given contracts at jmc after 9/11 despite finishing their 6 months and CTC found them employment with easyJet (they still had to make the grade and be acceptable to easy of course). Anyone who hadn't been on the scheme who was at jmc like me, and then faced redundancy had no such route into easyJet. IMHO CTC acted admirably in supporting these unfortunate guys. I think that speaks volumes.

I agree, you could go and fund your own training (can't comment about how much it would cost you) but then you would find yourself out in the big wild world with all those hundreds of other 'low hours' pilots currently looking for those oh so elusive F/O jobs. If that's more your cup of tea then fine, I'm not knocking it, hell that's the route I took, but your throw away line about how you could 'just' pay for your own training and then go and get a job really needs a little more scrutiny. Ask any of the pilots on here who have qualified and are finding it incredibly difficult to get any kind of flying job. It really is VERY, VERY competitive at the moment and will be for some time to come.

CTC are a business and they are there to make money, what they offer is a proven product to the airlines without the risk. They take the risk and they use their expertise to root out the likely failures before they put candidates forward for type ratings. That's what they do to make money. In return they offer a scheme to the individual which can save them something like five years in their aviation career by putting them straight into the RHS of a jet aircraft.

It's horses for courses, if you don't like it withdraw from the next stage. Nobody is forcing you to do it. Oh, and by the way, make sure you call the airlines by their correct names if asked by CTC; jmc don't exist any more.

Good luck.

PP

Wee Weasley Welshman

CTC offer a fair scheme that is transparent and not extortionate imho.

WWW

Obs cop

The biggest single hurdle for most people is raising the capital to pay for training.

CTC can and do provide considerable help for their students in this area.

Quite a plus in my mind (if only I were younger!)

tonyblair

I was also unsuccessful. However, my perspective is totally different from yours David. Had I got through the sim ride I would have gone for this like a shot (as presumably you would have; otherwise why did you apply?).

You are right in that this has been done to death. However, I question your pal’s understanding of the economics at play.

Q Do you pay for your own training?
A No, CTC pay for it during your training, then the airline pay them.

Q But you hand over £60K to them.
A Yes, but they give it back to you.

Q Ah, yes, but you have to give it to the airline.
A Yes, and they give you £84K back!

Q But don’t you pay for it later by accepting a lower salary?
A Lower salary than what? That’s like saying my breasts would be bigger if I was a woman; quite likely, but I’m male. If you pay for your own training you have just over a zero chance of landing the same job on a direct entry FO salary.

Q But don’t the airline pay for your training out of the savings they make by employing you rather than recruiting a direct entry pilot.
A Yes they certainly recoup some of the costs; not all, but some of them. A bit like the old BA cadet scheme did.

If you don’t like it, don’t apply. You could always do what I’m now struggling to do – pay for your own training then hope like hell to get some sort of employment to service the debt. I’m under no illusions; it will take me years to pay off my training costs and years to get a FO job with the likes of Thomas Cook or easyJet. If and when I get there I will need to earn a direct entrant salary to pay my debts and interest. Unfortunately I’ll be paying that out of taxed salary and I’ll be miles behind the cadets in terms of career development and seniority and hence earnings.

IMHO CTC McAlpine have come up with a brilliant scheme and, with the airlines they are supplying, are doing some lucky wannabes a great favour. It was worth speculating £160 to see if I could be one of them.