Too old for training??
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Too old for training??
At 36 with a PhD and ten years in pharmaceuticals I've just decided to change course entirely and embark on an aviation career. For me this means the modular route over the next year or so (I'm only at PPL level at present). On broaching the subject of age, OATS and every other provider I've spoken to so far have said it's no problem. However, if possible I would like the opinion of professionals already in the industry (those who know the score AND haven't got a vested interest in taking money off me) and those of others embarking on the same journey. I will be nearly 38 upon completion but I'll have less than 300 hours in total. I don't at present know what I can reasonable expect in terms of a future career. I know I won't walk into a shiny outfit like BA at the start but is it ever going to be likely starting this late? Any views most welcome.
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Here we go again! Sorry, but this subject does crop up incredibly regularly. If you do a search using the keywords 'too old', you'll find many, many guys like yourself asking this question.
There is, of course, no definitive answer. It largely depends on what you wnat to achieve, and how single-minded you are about achieving it. There is no doubt that you could make it to a major - our own Capt Pprune started (as an IT chap) in his 30s, and is now flying 757s for one of our larger charter outfits. BA and Virgin will recruit people well into their 40s, if they have appropriate experience (say 1000-2000 hours including some jet time), so it's up to you to get that experience!
You must take each stage in turn as your primary goal, without ever losing sight of the eventual aim. Work your socks off; GAPAN aptitudes, PPL, IMC, night, ATPL groundschool, hour building, multis etc, etc, until you are in a position to start looking for jobs. Air Taxi work, instructing, commuters, who knows? It's all valuable, and it all builds into a CV a jet operator will appreciate.
The downside is that it will cost you a great deal of money and time. £50k is not unreasonable, and 2-3 years' hard work. If you have a supportive (emotionally and financially) partner, brilliant. But warn them it will be a hard struggle, and there will be setbacks. How much do you want it?
There is, of course, no definitive answer. It largely depends on what you wnat to achieve, and how single-minded you are about achieving it. There is no doubt that you could make it to a major - our own Capt Pprune started (as an IT chap) in his 30s, and is now flying 757s for one of our larger charter outfits. BA and Virgin will recruit people well into their 40s, if they have appropriate experience (say 1000-2000 hours including some jet time), so it's up to you to get that experience!
You must take each stage in turn as your primary goal, without ever losing sight of the eventual aim. Work your socks off; GAPAN aptitudes, PPL, IMC, night, ATPL groundschool, hour building, multis etc, etc, until you are in a position to start looking for jobs. Air Taxi work, instructing, commuters, who knows? It's all valuable, and it all builds into a CV a jet operator will appreciate.
The downside is that it will cost you a great deal of money and time. £50k is not unreasonable, and 2-3 years' hard work. If you have a supportive (emotionally and financially) partner, brilliant. But warn them it will be a hard struggle, and there will be setbacks. How much do you want it?
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Thanks for your reply. Fortunately I have an incredibly supportive family and I want this more than anything and they know what's required as we have been over and over it. It's not a sudden decision in truth. I failed to get into the RAF after uni and couldn't afford to fund myself for commercial flying. When thinking about what career would suit I've always tried to think what else could I do? I've always known what I really want to do. It's taken a long time to just say 'sod it' I'm going to make this happen but I'm here now and set to do just that. Thanks again for your input.
Nigel
Nigel
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Oh yes, I forgot..... Best of luck!
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Scroggs
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Scroggs
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Welcome to the club !!
I am 37, 3 kids + mortgage, MSc, JAR PPL,IT (software dev) in city. Just looking at distance learning courses. Don't like having to shell out initial £400 for class 1 medical (having already got a good class 2 AND a class 3 also !!). Still at the will I, won't I stage.
I am 37, 3 kids + mortgage, MSc, JAR PPL,IT (software dev) in city. Just looking at distance learning courses. Don't like having to shell out initial £400 for class 1 medical (having already got a good class 2 AND a class 3 also !!). Still at the will I, won't I stage.
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...well you know what my suggestion would be. But I guess you have to talk it over with your partner too. Mine is extremely supportive and wants me to be happy in my work (which is fantastic). Unfortunately she doesn't share my enthusiasm for flying and just see's it as a way to get from A to B.
Anyway, whatever you decide good luck. Just think about how you're going to feel in another ten years if you don't though. Whoops sorry.. that's going to do you no good at all. Good luck. Whatever!
Nigel
Anyway, whatever you decide good luck. Just think about how you're going to feel in another ten years if you don't though. Whoops sorry.. that's going to do you no good at all. Good luck. Whatever!
Nigel
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Nigel
maybe we need a new forum on here for wannabees who think we're past it... i'm just about 30 and with a few years in the IT industry am considering the same question as you ... I've had an incredible amount of encouragement from the PPRuners , I think that's what it takes to give us that final nudge ... I'm currently only 6 hours PPL but after that it'll be CPL/IR, ATPL ... etc etc... good luck !
maybe we need a new forum on here for wannabees who think we're past it... i'm just about 30 and with a few years in the IT industry am considering the same question as you ... I've had an incredible amount of encouragement from the PPRuners , I think that's what it takes to give us that final nudge ... I'm currently only 6 hours PPL but after that it'll be CPL/IR, ATPL ... etc etc... good luck !
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Great advice scroggs et al.
Don't get too stressed about your age, guys and girls. I didn't start flying until I was twenty six and only then for fun. Late last year (read 31 y.o.) I got serious with it and got a CPL AND my first job through another contributor toTHIS WEBSITE!!!
So, yes, it can happen for you as well, just work hard at it, and stay focussed on your goal.
P.S. Don't forget to keep your partner involved (in the loop) if you know where I'm coming from...., mine is, and she has been incredibly patient, and together the world is ours!
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'Gravity' is just a myth that the earth sux.....anon.. (or was I just drunk again?)
Don't get too stressed about your age, guys and girls. I didn't start flying until I was twenty six and only then for fun. Late last year (read 31 y.o.) I got serious with it and got a CPL AND my first job through another contributor toTHIS WEBSITE!!!
So, yes, it can happen for you as well, just work hard at it, and stay focussed on your goal.
P.S. Don't forget to keep your partner involved (in the loop) if you know where I'm coming from...., mine is, and she has been incredibly patient, and together the world is ours!
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'Gravity' is just a myth that the earth sux.....anon.. (or was I just drunk again?)
Guest
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I am 36 and as scroggs said if you want you can do it. I am near completion of my ppl and next year I hope to have every bit of paper and qualifications I can get my hands on. Oh yes your other half is vital. I was lucky that a captain allowed both of us a jump seat ride in an Airbus, crystal clear night into Stanstead. I think that convinced her plus the social side of things is quite good at my AD.
Best of luck and see you there.
PS I am in biotech, but would rather be....
REX
Best of luck and see you there.
PS I am in biotech, but would rather be....
REX
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Ok, another lamb to the slaughter !
36, IT Contractor, Good Salary (better than I ever imagined) and totally miserable.
Over a year ago I got my Class One with the ambition of getting my PPL re-validated after a period working abroad and then navigating the ATPL/Modular route. Got seduced by the high salary of working in IT and let it slip. After spending the last year watching the jets on 27 finals at Heathrow I have decided that there must be more to selling your soul to IT !
At the end of the day if you want it bad enough you WILL achieve it.
Maybe we should start an over 30's club ?
Good luck one and all...keep in touch.
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36, IT Contractor, Good Salary (better than I ever imagined) and totally miserable.
Over a year ago I got my Class One with the ambition of getting my PPL re-validated after a period working abroad and then navigating the ATPL/Modular route. Got seduced by the high salary of working in IT and let it slip. After spending the last year watching the jets on 27 finals at Heathrow I have decided that there must be more to selling your soul to IT !
At the end of the day if you want it bad enough you WILL achieve it.
Maybe we should start an over 30's club ?
Good luck one and all...keep in touch.
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Guest
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I wish you the best of luck, guys, but do remember that your final aim is to get a job, not just to gain the license. If you are 30+ and have the same experience and aptitude as a 20 yr-old then most employers will go for the latter.
You will be well-advised to figure an FIC rating and at least a couple of years' instructing into your calculations. By the time you have gained 1200 hours then most airlines might offer you an interview.
It is a long haul but IMHO still worth it in the end
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You know when you've been CHF'd!
You will be well-advised to figure an FIC rating and at least a couple of years' instructing into your calculations. By the time you have gained 1200 hours then most airlines might offer you an interview.
It is a long haul but IMHO still worth it in the end
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You know when you've been CHF'd!
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In reponse to ChuffBaby.. I think what you say is reasonable. However, I would imagine (some of) the airlines to be interested also in people that have proven they can handle situational and people management. Although we may not be as young and fit as the integrated route 21 year old OATS graduate, many of us have other experience aside from flying that will surely be of potential value?? Or is this just wishful thinking???
I think this is a reasonable point to debate and would hope to provoke numerous responses.
I think this is a reasonable point to debate and would hope to provoke numerous responses.
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NigelS
I started flying with 33 after spending hours and hours on the weekends at the airports and spotting planes. After the first few hours of flying a C172, "the virus" spread all over my small brain and I decided to go for the frozen ATPL (CPL/IR/ME all included)but also on the modular route. It took me three years to complete everything paralell to my job and ended up with 230 hrs total including 50 ME on a Seneca. Turning 36 I submitted my application to CROSSAIR in Switzerland, was invited and GOT THE JOB !!
Now I am in the type transition course on the Embraer-145 as a first officer being on line somewhere around the end of August this year. It is JUST GREAT and I never want to do anything else again !
I have a MSc & PhD in materials engineering and spent several years in industry gaining "life experience" which is very valuable for airlines.
On the first day at Crossair one of the instructors told our class (16 of us) that Crossair has had very good experience with "older" F/Os (>30).Maturity and life experience also are taken into account. It is not only the hours in total which count.
Also consider the fact, that at 30 or above the chances are quite good to start the first airline job without any debts since you could save some money to pay for all training. This really makes you sleep better (at least I do !)
However, I tip my hat in front of the younger guys out there who have quite some high debts but really "the right stuff" and a lot of courage for the first airline job. By taking such a high financial risk (from my point of view) they really show a strong dedication for their first job !!
Finally, I think there is no golden rule to get a job in an airline. If you really want it, you will get it. You certainly need some luck. Combine this with desperate will and dedication, you will be the winner !
I was very lucky and got a job right after finishing my training. Thank god for this !
Stop talking about age, if you want to fly, DO IT and you'll get it !
Wish you all the best endurance and luck !
rtt
I started flying with 33 after spending hours and hours on the weekends at the airports and spotting planes. After the first few hours of flying a C172, "the virus" spread all over my small brain and I decided to go for the frozen ATPL (CPL/IR/ME all included)but also on the modular route. It took me three years to complete everything paralell to my job and ended up with 230 hrs total including 50 ME on a Seneca. Turning 36 I submitted my application to CROSSAIR in Switzerland, was invited and GOT THE JOB !!
Now I am in the type transition course on the Embraer-145 as a first officer being on line somewhere around the end of August this year. It is JUST GREAT and I never want to do anything else again !
I have a MSc & PhD in materials engineering and spent several years in industry gaining "life experience" which is very valuable for airlines.
On the first day at Crossair one of the instructors told our class (16 of us) that Crossair has had very good experience with "older" F/Os (>30).Maturity and life experience also are taken into account. It is not only the hours in total which count.
Also consider the fact, that at 30 or above the chances are quite good to start the first airline job without any debts since you could save some money to pay for all training. This really makes you sleep better (at least I do !)
However, I tip my hat in front of the younger guys out there who have quite some high debts but really "the right stuff" and a lot of courage for the first airline job. By taking such a high financial risk (from my point of view) they really show a strong dedication for their first job !!
Finally, I think there is no golden rule to get a job in an airline. If you really want it, you will get it. You certainly need some luck. Combine this with desperate will and dedication, you will be the winner !
I was very lucky and got a job right after finishing my training. Thank god for this !
Stop talking about age, if you want to fly, DO IT and you'll get it !
Wish you all the best endurance and luck !
rtt
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That's excellent! I think it would be great to get any job after training. CrossAir would be cool for me though as I would doubtless get to fly my old boss who's a senior manager in a big Swiss pharma company(here's a clue; it begins with Nov and ends in Artis). He would be soooo jealous...
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Nigel,
I too am in the pharma industry and a couple of years out of my PhD. I'm pushing 30 also and cannot understand why I didn't realise earlier that I wanted to fly. Just wanted to wish you all the best. I hope to accumulate the cash some time over the next few years to make the leap from a job that although pays well, just seems to bore me. I guess it's because I know that I want to be doing something else.
Again, the big question for me is post training job opportunities. Feedback here suggests that persistance and luck are the keys. Right now I am very envious of anyone staring out on this new and exciting journey. Please keep us posted on your progress.
Best wishes,
R
I too am in the pharma industry and a couple of years out of my PhD. I'm pushing 30 also and cannot understand why I didn't realise earlier that I wanted to fly. Just wanted to wish you all the best. I hope to accumulate the cash some time over the next few years to make the leap from a job that although pays well, just seems to bore me. I guess it's because I know that I want to be doing something else.
Again, the big question for me is post training job opportunities. Feedback here suggests that persistance and luck are the keys. Right now I am very envious of anyone staring out on this new and exciting journey. Please keep us posted on your progress.
Best wishes,
R
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NigelS and all the others,
I'm in a similar situation - 34 with 10 yrs of a strong career in the media behind me, but it's time to acknowledge the urge I've had since uni. I hope to start training in Sept'. I know these posts seem to crop up every 2 mins on this site, but from my research to date, airlines are very interested in those who have strong experience in business and management. There are many qualities that map across from our previous careers that can make you stand out from the crowd in the selection process - qualities that will not necessarily be learned during training. So good luck - I'd like to hear how you progress.
I'm in a similar situation - 34 with 10 yrs of a strong career in the media behind me, but it's time to acknowledge the urge I've had since uni. I hope to start training in Sept'. I know these posts seem to crop up every 2 mins on this site, but from my research to date, airlines are very interested in those who have strong experience in business and management. There are many qualities that map across from our previous careers that can make you stand out from the crowd in the selection process - qualities that will not necessarily be learned during training. So good luck - I'd like to hear how you progress.
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Sydneyc
Do be a little cautious thinking your previous experience will make you 'more attractive' to the airlines. I don't wish to be offensive, just give you the advantage of hindsight from someone he's been there. Airlines are interested only in flying experience i.e. how many hours have you got at the controls and how big was the aircraft you were flying and weather you have command hours amongst these and what type of flying were you doing.
Your management experience etc will be excellent for discussion at interview where the interviewer is looking for three things from you - Determination, Responsibility and Flexibility. These three headings cover all the qualities that an airline want from a pilot. Unfortunately, passing the interview is not the hard part, getting the interview in the first place is by far the trickiest task you will be faced with once qualified, just read the numerous threads from people desperate to secure even one positive reply from their hundreds of CV's. People do get interviews with low hours once qualified, but even they will agree that they are the exception, not the rule, so it's all hours, hours, hours.
Best of luck anyway.
PP
Do be a little cautious thinking your previous experience will make you 'more attractive' to the airlines. I don't wish to be offensive, just give you the advantage of hindsight from someone he's been there. Airlines are interested only in flying experience i.e. how many hours have you got at the controls and how big was the aircraft you were flying and weather you have command hours amongst these and what type of flying were you doing.
Your management experience etc will be excellent for discussion at interview where the interviewer is looking for three things from you - Determination, Responsibility and Flexibility. These three headings cover all the qualities that an airline want from a pilot. Unfortunately, passing the interview is not the hard part, getting the interview in the first place is by far the trickiest task you will be faced with once qualified, just read the numerous threads from people desperate to secure even one positive reply from their hundreds of CV's. People do get interviews with low hours once qualified, but even they will agree that they are the exception, not the rule, so it's all hours, hours, hours.
Best of luck anyway.
PP
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Air travel is expected to double worldwide over the next 2 decades and as such will result in major amounts of hiring by all airlines so you have chosen to embark upon an aviation career at the right time.
There are considerably more opportunites now then back in the early '80s when the RAF gave you the red light. The great majority of pilots recruited by the majors used to be from the military but now it is from the civilian sector.
There are considerably more opportunites now then back in the early '80s when the RAF gave you the red light. The great majority of pilots recruited by the majors used to be from the military but now it is from the civilian sector.
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Pilot Pete,
I understand your point - I do not think for one second that "non-hours" experience in other areas could be a substitute for flying experience and that certainly was not my point in my previous post. I was only passing on feedback from quite a few sources that suggested experience from other careers and professions would not necessarily be a complete waste in the whole mix. Those qualities are still positive ticks in boxes, even if small ones.
I understand your point - I do not think for one second that "non-hours" experience in other areas could be a substitute for flying experience and that certainly was not my point in my previous post. I was only passing on feedback from quite a few sources that suggested experience from other careers and professions would not necessarily be a complete waste in the whole mix. Those qualities are still positive ticks in boxes, even if small ones.