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Question bank vs Learning

Old 26th Sep 2017, 22:49
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Originally Posted by mgahan
I'm sure I'd rather have the pilot of my aircraft or the controllers separating it from others to have passed their exams and tests by applying knowledge of the subject and not remembering the answers to stock questions.
I wouldn't recommend flying in that case
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Old 27th Sep 2017, 06:24
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Originally Posted by mgahan
I'm sure I'd rather have the pilot of my aircraft or the controllers separating it from others to have passed their exams and tests by applying knowledge of the subject and not remembering the answers to stock questions.
What is the difference between "applying knowledge" to learn the wake turbulence separation minima and "memorizing" the wake turbulence separation minima?
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Old 27th Sep 2017, 09:37
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Originally Posted by keeflyer

While I'm at it on a slight tangent, why does VFR and IFR comms need to be two separate exams? Why can't it be one exam with two sections?
The cynic in me says the answer is obvious ... everyone knows the exams are money making machines
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Old 27th Sep 2017, 09:42
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VFR and IFR comms will be combined in the future, as well as adding KSA 100.
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Old 27th Sep 2017, 14:18
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I don't think the KSA 100 thing has been though through properly at all, and it is more geared to big organisations.
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Old 27th Sep 2017, 15:32
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Sorry, what is KSA 100?
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Old 27th Sep 2017, 16:19
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Knowledge, Skills and Attitude.
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Old 27th Sep 2017, 18:52
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I finished my ATPL theory exams early summer, so I know very well how this works. Bear in mind that I did the ATPLs before they introduced these new questions with lists, typed answers, etc, but at this time I have to say that the Bristol Ground School question bank was absolutely bang-on. AGK, Comms, Air Law, and General Navigation were (a few months ago) 90% from BGS online. The rest of the exams were slightly less, but all had a considerable amount of questions that I'd seen before on the question bank. Personally, I think I could have scraped over the line without using a question bank, but it wouldn't have been pretty, and it would have taken considerably more time and effort. That being said, some people absolutely hammer the question banks, and still scrape over the line, or even fail.

At the beginning of my course, there were a few people who made a point of "I'm not going to use question banks, I'm going to read the textbooks inside-out and know the content...". As honourable as their intentions were, they were the lowest scorers in the first set of exams, and they soon realised that question banks were they way to go if you want a decent average. A few sly remarks were thrown around between individuals at ground school, such as "You only got such a high average because you did the Bristol question bank from day one..." or "I got a 10% lower average than you, but I actually know the content, you just know the question bank...". I just feel you should do what ever is necessary to get the highest average possible, and give yourself a bigger feather in your cap. There's nothing dishonourable about it, it was the way it worked.

In my experience, the relevant stuff comes in when you do your practical flight training. There were some truly ridiculous questions that were more pub quiz questions than ATPL theory. Particularly in HPL, Air Law, and Radio Navigation. There's no relevance in knowing what a "first group" is, when the Chicago Convention was signed, or what types of atomic clock a NavStar GPS has. Easy marks, I admit, but completely irrelevant.
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 07:04
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"I'm going to read the textbooks inside-out and know the content...".

Of course, whether they can actually do that also depends on the quality of the study material. The Peters software stuff, for example (i.e. Boeing/Jeppesen), is appalling.
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 07:40
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CATS study guides for Air Law and Operational Procedures are awful. For Met. and human performance they are OK. With the new Quadrant questions I don't know if this guides will actually be useful.

God I am so stressed .
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 09:23
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The reality is virtually nothing learnt to pass the exams will be used when you get a job. It can all be forgotten as soon as you have passed the exams. But the best way to pass the exams is to learn the wretched rubbish and test then your understanding and knowledge by using the question banks. Doing it the other way around will guarantee too many of you will fail because you don't understand the subject. This will become apparent when the the Campaign change the wording or values in 'known' questions or, rather sneakily, introduce new questions - how underhand! This is why the Alexs and Pacos of the world are worth their weight in gold.
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 18:42
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I agree with Piltdown Man. I saw many a student (mainly middle-eastern sponsored students) not do a scrap of work, but cut through 500 or so Bristol questions every day. Safe to say, some failed miserably. Even comms.

I reckon the best way to learn would be under an instructor in a bona-fide ground school, highlighting the key points in the textbook. Go over the content in the evening and summarise your highlighted points by making footnotes. If you're lucky enough to have questions in the books (like the CAE Oxford books), do those after each chapter. If not, try to refine a search on BGS to what's specific to what you've just covered. If you get any wrong, don't just tick the correct box and think "I'll remember next time...". Make a point of going back to the text and reading why you had it wrong. Maybe even highlight it in a different colour. With this method I think you get a lot of information in your head to fall back on, whilst learning how to tackle the horrible, snidey questions that do pop-up. That's what I did anyway.

The worst example of quite literally learning the question was a very common in Air Law. In the question was a description of a certain type of airspace, the aim to determine which it is, and we were taught to count how many times you see the words "VFR" or "IFR". From how many times you saw these words in the question, you could work out which was which by just remembering the rules. Class C was 8 times, Class D was 6 times, E was 4 times, F was 5 times, or something like that. Please, god, don't quote me! It was the worst demonstration of teaching and learning to exams I saw in ground school. Bloody funny when it came-up though !

With the old questions, you had the ability to just hammer the question banks and still pass. The new-style questions force a student to actually learn the content, which will no doubt take much more time than before. When I was at ground school, even with the question banks, it was studying nearly ever day for six months to get through all 14 exams of the ATPL theory. I could count on one hand how many days I had off without opening a textbook in that time. Could it be the case that the length of groundschool needs to be lengthened to fit-in more study time?
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Old 29th Sep 2017, 02:50
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hey guys, it will always be the case of not enough time in the groundschool portion. It’s always on the airlines timeline, you can get longer ground school but at the expense of a job.
14 exams to be cleared in 6 months or so, honestly unless you are a blinking genius, it won’t work trying to fully understand and at the same time pass the exam.
you can do the combination of both and best done in a group. When the dust settles, for the questions that is still giving you trouble, you can go ask the instructors to explain.
Have a working knowledge initially, you can continue your professional advancement on your own once you get the job. all this studying is all on you. Time management too
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Old 29th Sep 2017, 11:18
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As has been proven many times, you cannot pass these exams on knowledge alone.
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Old 29th Sep 2017, 22:28
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There was a guy on my course 11 years ago who decided he wasn't going to use the question bank on principle and, lo and behold, got the lowest score out of everyone.

The bottom line is this. You have to do everything you can to maximise your chances of getting a job at the end of the course. A righteous sense of moral superiority is not going to repay your training loan, or buy you a house, or pay for your childcare. This is the real world.

Use the question bank and don't feel bad about it. If the CAA gave a they would do something to shut it down. But they don't, and neither should you because a large proportion of the material is information that is going to be useless to you and will be quickly forgotten.

Keep your head down, do what you have to do to pass with a clean sheet. There are no extra marks for being a goody two-shoes.
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Old 29th Sep 2017, 23:12
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Not the pompous opinion about the matter that some on here seem to take, one of which aimed at me that I chose to ignore cos it didn't deserve a reply it was so nonsensical. The post above however is bang on the money.

If you want to get 90%+ as an average, well you wanna know the question banks inside out. And no, no amount of "study" of the books in a 6 month period taking on 14 topics in depth as per the syllabus is going to put you in a good position to sit any exam without using the bank - to suggest so is blind ignorance. Know what you need to - the questions that will get you your license.

Last edited by Officer Kite; 29th Sep 2017 at 23:30.
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Old 30th Sep 2017, 06:05
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And that's the point - you need to study because the interviewers won't be asking multi-choice questions, but you need to use the banks to get the licence. Given the way it has been implemented, I see no problem with that. After all, every school has their own progress tests and you need to think round the material in many ways. If the job had been done properly in the first place, we wouldn't be having this discussion, but you still owe it to your future passengers to study the material and know what you are doing.

It comes to something when a CFII who is also a heart surgeon and a Merlin pilot with a degree in aeronautics cannot pass them without using the banks, both of whom have been through here.
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Old 30th Sep 2017, 08:32
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Questions banks were always a must and the recent new questions that came out over the past few years confirmed it. Dubious English, sometimes very unclear questions and even less clear answers available.
Again this is exactly it. I used the question banks a lot, after having a look through my books to get an idea of the topic and build a mental map of the sections and concepts, I then used the banks in order to refine this knowledge to effectively apply it to the EASA questions.

When I and I think many others say to use the question banks, we do not mean to memorise 3000 answers for one sitting - no. What I at least mean is to be familiar with the sort of questions they ask on a particular topic, and you do that with the bank. I was able to score high marks in all tests, not because I had memorised the answers (I forget most, except for the crazier questions that seem to stay in mind), but rather I have learned the material through trial and error with the question banks and seeking to understand why I was wrong if I got a question wrong. Over time you do understand the topic quite well (unless you aren't trying to see why you're wrong). I would say I have a decent understanding of all the topics I just passed, I know full well that when the questions popped up on the screen, I wasn't asking myself "where have I seen this and what was the answer", rather I understood the topics and was able to answer it anyway, and where this was tricky with multiple correct answers, seeing it before and knowing what the examiner wants from you helps sometimes.

To sum it up, question banks help you refine the topics and concepts you really do need to know and that get asked most often. Without such a guide you couldn't possibly narrow down your study to what is the most important.
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Old 30th Sep 2017, 12:00
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I think that just about sums it up......
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