Instrument Rating prior to CPL?

[CrazyScientist]

Hey

I am looking at doing my CPL/IR this summer (single engine for now to lock the exams, will come back to it in a year or two once I am in a better financial position to gain MEP rating and upgrade to MEIR), with the intention of doing the CPL first followed by the IR.

However, due to various time and financial constraints, I am currently considering the possibility of just doing the IR first in a couple of months, then coming back to the CPL towards the end of the summer.

Does anyone have any feedback about doing things this way? I would be starting the IR with the minimum entry requirements - 50 hours of PIC cross country time (this will be about 120 hours total time in my case, about 55 of these will be recent, since renewing my SEP rating).

Thanks!

[paco]

Why not?........

[cavok_flyer]

Definitely

I am/was in the same position as you, but the flight school made the decision easy: 1. Any VFR time I log flying to training areas will count towards my CPL 2. Only have to log VFR time when it comes to do the CPL sind I already have the mandatory IFR time.

In the long run you save by doing the IFR first.

[CrazyScientist]

Thanks for the input guys.

Doing the IR first would indeed save some money - as things stand at the moment once I have completed my 100 hours P1 I will still have another 10 hours to do (either dual or PIC) and so the IR will obviously eat up that flight time. It will also mean I am less pressured over the summer as I will only have the CPL to do in my tight three month window, as opposed to the CPL and then the IR.

What I am concerned about is the skill level required for the IR. I've often heard the IR is much more difficult than the CPL and that the CPL course and hour building prerequisite will help you prepare for the IR. Therefore, doing the CPL followed by the IR seems to be a more natural progression.

I'm just wondering if this is indeed a fair assessment or if I'm exaggerating. Many modular providers also seem to suggest the CPL is taught first, with the only exceptions being in case of weather (i.e if starting the CPL/IR in winter, IR comes first to minimise weather disruption and delay CPL until milder weather).

It's very difficult to tell from my naive position where I am relative to where I need to be for the CPL/IR in terms of skill level. The only indications I have are the skills test tolerances for the CPL in terms of maintaining heading/altitude/airspeed and I don't think I am quite there yet in terms of the altitude tolerance (I do still bust +/- 100 feet on most flights). I am sure there's more to it than being able to fly accurately too.

[cavok_flyer]

It is a different way to fly...

I have ~250 hrs PPL and I have to say that the first hours of really learning/doing standard rate turns with the extra bonus of descending and climbing was a real challenge. Now, it really becomes easier the more you do it. And since your eyes are all the time on the instruments, once you have the a/c trimed, you really have very little input to control your altitude.

Also, practice holdings, VORs, and NDBs on your computer or iPad. I thought I could could do them from PPL, but I was give a rude awakening on the first VOR lesson.

I am still working on my cockpit orgainization since this school insists upon using only paper charts, no iPads, etc for approach plates, checklists etc., which is still a problem for me since all my "private" VFR flying is entirely based on a/c GPS and iPad; no paper in the cockpit for the last 2 years. But I think I have a solution, now. It all takes time and my instructor said from the very first lesson that once I start to get task saturated, say so and he'll fly until my head gets clear. No pilot was born with the ability to fly IFR perfectly from the get-go; that is why there is 50 hours of flying and hopefully you have an instructor that respects the fact that you are LEARNING and not on front line OPS.

[paco]

A couple of things to ponder - you could look at the CBIR, which eventually leads to the IR, except for a High Performance aircraft exam which you can do any time.

Also before you start the IR, you need some seriously accurate VFR flying, using any navaids enroute as free practice.

[CrazyScientist]

Thanks again!

It may well be the CBIR I end up doing, but in my situation with no IMC rating or IFR experience the difference is probably academic, the only change being I may get a few hours shaved off the course if I'm ready for test before the normal 50 hours for the SEIR. From what I've been told, the CBIR is identical to the full IR (and appears exactly the same on the license) apart from the training route. If I've understood correctly, the HPA exam is only for those who haven't sat either the IR or ATPL exams?

Would having the CPL before starting the IR be useful in any way other than simply being more experience handling the controls and staying within tolerances?

I guess I could just look up the tolerances for the IR skills test on the CAA site and use these as a guide - but is there anything else to consider in terms of flying ability when making the decision to do the IR first?

[rudestuff]

The CPL is the only one that requires 200 hours, so from a purely financial view - it makes sense to incorporate the IR into your hour building. Remember the IR training will not count as PIC, so your best course of action now depends on your current hours breakdown. I was told that you should do the CPL first because you're already used to VFR flying etc etc, and IFR flight will degrade those skills. The thing is - you have 25 hours for the CPL, which should be more than enough to get back up to speed...
Now let me tell you about my IR experience: As a long time VFR pilot, I KNEW that the IR was the hardest thing in the world. I KNEW that I would need way more than the minimums. I spent £1000 buying a gaming PC and a flight SIM. Then I started my IR. After 6 hours in the FNPT2, the instructor said something that amazed me - "That's it. You've covered everything. The rest is just practice and fine tuning. The IR is way too long." Whaaat?!? Sure enough, 24 sim hours later I knew every hold and every possible approach by heart, before even getting in the aircraft. If you like procedures, you'll find the IR quite straight forward. I still haven't unpacked my new PC. If you've got enough hours and can fit in the IR I would suggest you do it first

[KayPam]

Could you tell what sort of exercices you can practice in a flight sim ? That will be way less expensive than practising them in a real aircraft However I could very well do that in my last hour buillding hours, if only I found a VOR outside controlled airspace.

A holding pattern is flown with 1 min or 1.5 min legs. Then the rate 1 turn is started just above the fix (correct me if i'm wrong)
I am still wondering what sort of heading precision you can get while being less than 2nm from your fix, and how precisely you can know you're just above your fix, given that my ops lessons taught me that markers were created specifically because fix like VORs and NDBs cannot tell you precisely when you're above them.

[paco]

If you are overhead an NDB the needle will start spinning like a top.

Flight sims are excellent for training. FS 2004 is good enough, it works on almost anything and doesn't leech its way into windoze the way other versions do. The objective is to practice tracking and anticipation and getting used to which way the needles move.

[CrazyScientist]

Thanks again for the responses.

I do enjoy the procedural side of flying far more, and from the tiny amount of instrument flying in real IMC I've done so far (with an instructor, during/after PPL) I've loved every minute of it.

I have both FSX and X-Plane 10 on my PC and do intend to use them to the best possible extent during the IR (this being about the only kind of training desktop sims are any good for).

From what I've read, it seems doing the IR first wouldn't be a significant issue if I can nail the accurate flying (the tolerances seem tighter than the CPL).