Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies)A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.
Maybe we should have a section for ATPL Wannabe's.
I agree with Busterplane, flying a tube at FL200 is not all that compared to flying a twin turbo prop or similar into various places, not just the same one time and time again.
To be honest I take exception to this abit. I don't sit listening to RT exchanges in my car at airports. I fly!! I expect there are lots of wage earning pilots who are scared of who might be listening in and what they may pick up and so want to restrict users so as to have freedom of speech. Am I right??? I reckon to do this will just result in another forum starting elsewhere which would be a great shame as PPRuNe is a v. good forum..
CP's out there also learn from the wannabes too. Especially regarding training and recruitment issues.
Anyway sorry to go on and all that.
Personally I prefer my old PA28 with dodgy adf and dme and big hole in the seat to a 737 with comfy seats and tea and bisuits????? (NOT!!).
Hey,
This post does give food-for-thought! I am going to joint he RAF in two years, and fly with them for a bit, and then when it comes time to leave, and hopefully the airline market will be better and I can leave and join an airline, someday. I know it's not as glossy as it seems, I knew that before I read this post, through a couple pilots I knew.
However, I think I would regret it the rest of my life if I gave up on flying, I would drive myself insane just askin myself "what-if?" If the airline thing doesn't look good by the time I leave the RAF, then I'll just stay with the RAF, at least I can build hours up! Some stick and rudder experience! The E3D Sentry sounds temptin......
Well anyway, I will stop yapping!
Cya,
Matthew
If you want a career without change, stable career prospects, want to know where you'll be in 2 years time then forget flying.
4 countries later, 3 airlines, half a large house in Berkshire ( 1 ex wife), nights out of bed, disruptive rosters, early starts, and not one regret. Only got 25 years left!
'You can either work for a living or you can fly airplains. Me, I'd rather fly.'
Come on guys. Anyone of you professional pilots of whatever grade cant possibly have believed that everything on the inside was rosy? There is no such thing as a glamourous job from the inside looking out. its so naive!!!!
Is it all that bad. 25000ft in the sun onroute to Stravanger or Lyon, the sun on your back and a "reasonable" salary in your pocket aint so bad, is it?
Its not all wondereful, no but hey would you prefer the 9 to 5 of accountancy. NO chance Im staying put. If you dont like it then jump ship you may find that there is someone willing to take your seat before its cold.
This is a wonderful thread. There is nowhere else where you can get this kind of fundamental discussion.
For my part I love the job and wouldn't do anything else.
But I do work for a great company out of a friendly small base which enjoys high morale. 18 months in the airlines and I earn more than my Mum and Dad combined. I have more time off than any of my mates and I am the ONLY one of them in the pub who doesn't hate their job.
Seriously. I have friends who work for Blue Chips like IBM or local paternalistic software companies. They earn well and are well respected at work yet hate their jobs with a passion. Others are becoming senior managers or are starting to shoot up the rungs as they enter their late 20's. But none of them likes what they do. None of them want to work for the same company in 5 years time. None of them wants to talk about their day at work. None of them feel proud to do what they do.
So I am very very lucky.
I still bitch and moan about rosters and long days and running out of newspapers. But actually I know I wouldn't want any other job. I'm new and I am sure I given another 20 years I will be a whole lot more jaded with it. But I am so much less jaded with my job than my mates now - that I can afford to slip a little.
Last week I flew a departure out of Nice rw04R slight overcast light winds. You take off and 400ft turn right 270 degrees. I flew it to 10,000ft manually, blasted through the cloud cover at 250kts 5000fpm with the airport 6000ft below me out the right window and the front window full of the early morning Alps, snow capped and bathed in sunrise. 2 minutes later I had a cup of coffee in my hand and did a pretty funny PA (well I think) as lake Geneva slid past my window. Followed by Paris on the left and then a spectacular CAVOK morning over London watching Concorde depart out of Heathrow. An amble down the M4 and then straight in for rw27 where by some stange aligning of planets I greased it onto the tarmac. Top notch banter with the crew all flight and the skipper was hilarious. Back home in time to suprise my girlfriend out to lunch.
Its nothing special but that I really enjoyed that little trip. It'll probably wear off. But I shall try hard not to let it.
Good read WWW, I am still firmly planted in the training stage, do not think of myself as naive, probably the opposite, and yet can honestly say that there is no other job I would rather do (from my current perception, that is, friends and family members are pilots so a reasonable idea of what is involved).
I too have done my stint in IT (age 30 now), many of my friends are also IT specialists, Account Managers, even a GP (a profession arguably harder than our own to study for and get into), company cars etc etc, and yet, they are also in exactly the same boat as WWW describes for his mates. At best, my mates "don't mind" what they do (the luckier ones I might add), albeit they admit that there jobs are boring, to me, this is a shame to go through so many years of your working life "not minding" (if you're lucky) what you do.
My God, show me any person who has no grumbles / gripes about their job and I'll show you a liar; however, I for one would prefer to grumble about my airline management / conditions etc than my former IT management / conditions.
Yes it's easy for me to say that not being in the industry, the point is, unless you're a footballer / rock star / supermodel / mega wealthy playboy (insert whatever floats your boat), then of course you'll have gripes about what you do, if you don't like it, choose a more suitable profession, where you will have different gripes but gripes none the less.
Great post WWW. I'm about to start the ATPL theory and what swung it for me is that I hated doing my job even though it was very well paid.
I quit to get my PPL and now I'm shooting for the 'getting paid to fly' option. I simply could NOT stand not trying! I refuse to take the easy option. As you say...
It was a hell of a day when I printed out my resignation letter at work. I walked past the bosses office about 8 times before I plunged in and put it on his desk. A comfortable, interesting, well paid job just up the road from home. To be honest the nascent PPRuNe helped me make the decision to go for it. Just e-chatting to people who had gambled and won helped me persuade myself and my family that this actually was OK and not the maddest thing since Mad Jack McHatter won last years 'Mr Madman' competition. So thanks once again Danny and Rob
Looking back, I was out of work training for 7 weeks of hard slog and adventure; then started working as a PPL instructor the very day I had my license in the post. Left that to go to Jerez as an IR instructor, left there for Go. Now sat about half way up the non-existent seniority list in the UK's 2nd biggest airline and not living in the South East (thats a bonus btw ). So I am a lucky lucky boy.
But if that story helps you make the best decision of your life. Then thats me paying back a little bit of a big debt.
Yep as I sit in the local with my mates there is not one of them that evenly remotley likes their job, some of them had to slog it out for four years in college with no cash other then what they got in a pub job and that went on accomodation after 4 yrs college with degrees in electronics/marketing etc what do they end up doing but working full time in the pub they were in or some local shop. I didnt spend 4 yrs in college because I was lucky enough to secure a very well paid job in telecoms during my course. Now I have great pay and aspirations to fly so now I begin on the road towards my license.
Every single one of my mates have struggled for years in college and working crap jobs to eventually secure a position in their choosen profession only to wish they chose otherwise,
Same **** different career. Aviation is the same as any other career and people heading into telecoms for example never listen to peers about ups and downs of it, they are interested and they must find out for themselves and thats the way it is.
There is not one of my immediate working colleagues that would'nt leave for something else with a tad of excitement, after 3 yrs in telecoms I rather work in a pub for a quarter the pay.
For every 1 of us wannabes out there with RHS aspirations there is a 1000 miserable baxterds moping about in a boring career,
Go for it regardless and never look back.
For all those thinking about starting at the flying game, if it is what you want more than anything else, do it. You will never be happy and will always wonder if you don't. Flying, after all, is the ultimate mistress to some people.
I have been looking for work for the past 4 years. After looking for a long time and a few trips down a couple of dodgy roads, I got 2 job offers just before September 11th. There has been nothing since.
I would be lying if I didn't say I think I could have tried harder in retrospect, but some of the sacrifices I would have had to have made would have not been worth it. As it was my marriage almost came to an end this summer due to broken promises and the inability to plan ahead whilst I searched for my holly grail.
I did go out to Africa and due to knowing the right people I could have found work, paying just enough to keep me in beer and accommodation. What I couldn't do is spend 2 years away from my wife on the off chance that 1500hrs in a 206 flying bush would mean an awful lot when I applied for a shiny jet Job. She means way more than that to me.
I guess what I am saying is that if the thought of not flying destroys you more than anything else ever has, then you have got to try. Me, I am lucky. Although I would still kill to get a job flying (anything) I have things in my life that are not worth loosing when compared to not flying. My wife would love for me to be able to find a job flying. It would stop me moaning about how much I miss it! However she also wants to have a good relationship with her husband and to start a family before she dies of old age. Pretty hard to do if you are flogging the bush in Africa, working for food and board whilst towing gliders etc.
Make your choices wisely. Make sure it is what you need to be truly happy and for god sake don't blow £70,000 on a course if you are then going to meet the woman of your dreams, have some refuse from the gene pool of humanity Kill 1000's of people and in the process ruin an industry already in trouble, try to avoid running up as much debt as I now have as a result.
Know what though
I passed my CPL/IR frozen ATPL, flown aerobatics in Africa, flown taildraggers into farm strips on limits and flown an ILS to minimum’s in turbulence that has been smacking my head against the roof of the Seneca. Hell at least I have proved I can do it. More to the point, at least I have done it
Last edited by Snoop : 27th November 2002 at 16:02.
I, for one, am not expecting to enter the airline industry as a pilot without any bumps in the road or with an unrealistic perception of piloting being a job without any downsides. However, as with so much else in life it is all relative, and compared to any other job I can think of - bar astronaut or perhaps Craig Doyles job off of 'Wish You Were Here' or whatever he presents - there is nothing else I’d like to do more. Certainly, I'd hate to be sitting at the desk I'm at now in 20/30/40 years time! Give me flying, responsibility, good pay, varied working hours (a good thing in my view) and a chance to see some of the world....even if there is a truck load of other s*** that comes with it.
From the more negative posts on this thread it seems some people are more p***** off with management issues and the way their respective companies are run than flying commercial jets (although I realise some people find that a bit tedious after a while). To that end, I hope either a) your respective managers see sense and treat you with some respect (a vain hope I know) or b) that you find another company that'll do so. Furthermore, if you're just not into the flying anymore then remember how more bored you would have been had you followed a different career path! Failing that, from what I've read the biz jet folk seem well chuffed with their jobs and loads of people seem to fly turboprops or instruct etc. with smiles on their faces. Better to be happy than going through the motions for the wage slip I feel.
Personally, I can't wait for the first time I get into the RHS with pax in the back. I'll have a rather big cheesy on by face, how long it'll last, I dunno, hopefully many years.
All the best to everyone and I hope you all find what makes you happy.
C
Last edited by Cambo : 29th November 2002 at 09:41.
I sit tired, jetlagged, and enthralled reading your mixed feelings
in and out of this idiotic industry.
After 32 years of aviating, military, general aviation, corporate and the last 20 airline, it still brings tears to my eyes,
watching the sunrise, the northern lights,
or just the big eyes of
some kid getting off the aeroplane.
Life is short, if you want peace, quiet, comfort don't fly.
Some lovely quips on aviation, she is a mistress, she will get in
bed between you and your wife, and she will make your life a
rollercoaster.
I would still do it for nothing, but my wife was always willing to help me pursue my dreams.
If you have a family to feed be realistic, the pay is not sufficient
to properly provide for a family until you get onto decent aircraft.
Your wife/husband is the key to a successful career. They must
be capable single parents, willing to run your home while you
are away. And happy to spend time alone as you must be.
Don't let the glamour of big aeroplanes dazzle your thinking, the
reality is far different from the perception of wannabees.
You will be tired, lonely, stressed, chronically jetlagged most of
the time.
It is not a job, it's a way of life, a discipline that in many ways is
harder than joining a monastic calling. I'm not being overly
dramatic, just realistic.
Choose well, both your careers and your partners.
Got the nod in August, started full time flying in Jan 03. Nice kick off for the year. Survived winter and now enjoying "summer" flying. Just racking up the hours as fast as the regs allow.
The ops job gave me an insight to the operation that flying the line never will.
I've let this thread go without replying to it for a little while, because I've found it a fascinating read. But it's time to add my thoughts.
Most of us will read and understand the words of those posters who say "it's just a job." But the fact is, whatever you do in life, it's just a job. Aviation really is no different in this respect.
I work in the IT department at a large bank. That's just a job. Some of my colleagues love the challenges of IT, others love the world of banking. For them, putting up with the sh!t they get from management, the long hours, the lack of appreciation, and the fact that they get the blame every time anything goes wrong is the downside, but they put up with it because they can't think of an environment in which they'd rather spend 40-50 (or more) hours a week.
I hate my current job.
On the other hand, I love flying.
Of course I know that flying professionally is "just a job". I know that I will be treated like dirt, that I'll have to work long hours that don't suit me, and that the good work that I do won't be appreciated. That's no different to my current job. The difference is that, once I look past the management, past the hours, past the pointing fingers and political games, if I was working as a pilot I'd still be doing something I enjoy, something I love. That's not the case in my current job.
And that's why I'm prepared to spend a fortune training to do a career where I can expect to earn 1/3 of what I earn in my current career. It doesn't make sense when you look at the hard facts, but I've looked beyond the hard facts, and I've made that choice.
One thing I've learnt from reading this thread is that there seems to be much more job satisfaction in small charter outfits and air-taxi work than there is in the airlines. I've always said that airline work is infinitely better than what I currently do, but given the choice I'd much rather fly something a little smaller and a little more fun and hands-on. Real-world practicalities such as lack of jobs and the ability to be paid enough to live on may make that decision for me, but the posts here seem to be reinforcing my own future plans. I've enjoyed reading all of them, positive or negative - please keep them coming!
FFF, great post chap, I'm a scum IT contractor and that's just a job, I've wanted to fly since I was 10 years old, I don't recollect having the same desire to be an IT bod from age 10 ! !
I'm now 36, finishing my PPL with a firm intention to get a CPL, I know I wont be flying 747's if I get a job, but I'll still be flying !
Pilots fly!
at last
). So I am a lucky lucky boy. 
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