Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies)A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.
Be a corporate pilot can be pretty interesting but get to de RH seat is almost imposible for a wannabe, you need to be type rated and get a lot of jet time, or in the other hand, have pretty good contacts...
I think that comments like "a ppl is lowly" are words form someone who believes that they are super human, yes flying is great but believe it or not people we are still human and need to be a bit more down to earth i am currently working towards a ppl and its not a piece of cake, not everyone can do it so choose your words wisely mr Chaffers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Over 1000 posts and I bought this Personal Title to try and tell my mother the embarrassing news that I am a closet Jazz fan.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Manchester
Posts: 138
I am indeed superhuman Rhys, thank you for the observation . Lowly was however meant facetiously, although compared to the 'average' poster on these forums it is in truth a lowly qualification. This is after all the professional pilots rumour network, and although a professional and a pilot I still reckon us pesky wannabees should know our place.
I want to be a pilot, but where do I start. I know I'd be a good pilot cos I drive good. What is the best way of applying for a job. Do the airlines pay travel expenses to and fro from training?
Do British Airways recruit regurlarly. Is the wages good. What sought of interview will I expect ? Please anyone can you help me with advice?
(If there are any airlines out there looking, please post salary details, holiday and health benefits, union representative details, insurance and school fees befits) on this forum.
It is nice to hear people who are desperate to do my job. It reminds me of who I once was. Now that I am no longer a wannabe and am actually a bona fide airline pilot I cannot actually remember ever wanting to do this job. All I wonder now is how to get out. Is there a DONTWANNABE forum available.
Harry
p.s. when you get older you get less choice and more responsibilities.
If I had it all to do again, I'd try to make a big load of dosh outside aviation, then fly for my own pleasure....not be some fat cat's galley slave for the rest of my days.
I know you don't believe me now guys....but one day you will.
Have a look at the bmi management thread on rumours and news for a taste of reality.......
Hey guys, OK, you don't wannabee anymore pilots, but remember the time you did, do you think you did a really stupid thing by becoming, cause if you didn't, you might had to live all your life without trying to do your dream, that is the worse I thing
But remember ultimately you'll be a cog in someone elses money making machine.
Just try to temper those dreams with a healthy dose of reality. Remember, the pro pilots who say these things were just as keen to fly as you.....and still love it just as much I would wager.
But......it's all the other things that go with the job that can start to take a heavy toll on your enthusiasm as you get older.
Unfortunately, I wouldn't have listened to this either.....
So good luck with your dreams...but try to keep a sense of perspective.
Spot on Maximum, it's a bit like going on holiday somewhere then deciding you would like to live and work there.
For me it was a hobby that turned into a career. With hindsight I wish I hadn't allowed the fun element to be sucked out of flying. That would mean doing something else and keeping flying as a hobby.
My point was that I sometimes persuse this Forum in an attempt to remember when I too was enthusiastic.
To all those wannabees, you will get there in the end, it is just a matter of time, money and perseverance.
Why dont all you boys & girls who want to go into aviation for a career do yourselves a big favour , stop think about it and dont.
Why am I saying this ,? because its true its not fun , glamorous
and these days lets be honest its not a career.
If you think your going to,be treated as a professional, well your
not .
To put the record straight I am not a regular contributor to these pages , in fact this is the first time I have felt compelled to do so but I feel that its time to tell the truth.If I had had access PPRuNe when I first thought about setting out on the ATPL trail I think that maybe I wouldnt be where I am today.
And where am I today just a captain with BA who in the next year
will be demoted back down to FO all because the highly profitable
company that I worked for was swallowed up by the worlds favorite,and myself and my collegues pushed to the back of a very long seniority list, and now the fleet that I work on is being disbanded guess what ? I no longer have the company seniority
to hold a command.Great career a ?.
If you are still determined to go ahead...good luck your going to need plenty.
I think I sense somewhat of a theme developing here. I just wish more pilots could be honest about this, and more wanabees could seriously take this on board. The problem is, we're probably seen as a strange minority for expressing this viewpoint. Well, I don't know about you guys but day to day I don't see to many pilots who aren't basically totally p***ed off with the job. The enthusiastic ones are few and far between, and to be brutally honest, usually fairly suspect.
Wanabees
I do speak as someone who loves flying just as much as any of you out there, so don't get the idea I'm some disillusioned weirdo who doesn't really deserve to be where he is today, because you want it so much more. I'm just trying to give you a taste of the job as it really is, not as how you think it's going to be. The problem is guys/gals, the 'job' has very little to do with your idea of 'flying'.
It is basically a trap. As time goes on, you become less and less qualified to earn the same kind of money doing anything else. And those at the top are well aware of this. Mortgages, school fees, car repayments. You're future is totally in the hands of ruthless businessmen who don't give a flying **** about you, as long as you're sitting on that seat in the cockpit when they need you to be.
The problem with your experience of flying as you progress up to your ATPL/IR is that it's all focused on YOU. It's very intense. There are huge ups and downs, frustration and elation. You hand fly all the time. Instructors guage your performance and discuss it with you in great detail. When you do well you get positive feedback. All this makes for an almost addictive experience.
BUT....remember, once your doing the job for a few years, it will be routine. That's a fact. Nobody gives a t*** if you're the ace of the base. You're a pro - you're expected to be. So don't f*** up. Don't expect any pats on the back. Even from colleagues. Just expect to spend a lot of energy watching your back lest management point an accusing finger at you.
Your hours will generally be horrendous - early starts, late finishes, too much time away from home....just look at the number of broken marriages there are in flying to see the toll it takes on family life. Christmas is just another day.
And as Mike the Stripes says, what career? Forget the idea that you'll be treated like a professional. In other professions you move up and get a payrise when you change jobs. In flying generally you move to the bottom of someone elses seniority list. And quite probably on less pay.
The career ladder is short. The vast majority of airline pilots will become a Captain, a small minority will become trainers (basically just more work) and a tiny minority will become management - but hey, if you want to be in management why not do it now and earn some real bucks outside aviation? Once you're sitting in that airline seat, the job remains the same until you retire or you lose your job.
Think about the money, time and effort it takes to get to that airline seat. Then think about applying it in some other direction.Yup, it all depends on what you want out of life. But it seems to me that flying for a living has become an area of diminishing returns.
Food for thought.
Last edited by Maximum : 10th August 2002 at 13:44.
I think the best flying years are those spent in training. Once on the line you realise that is not about flying but management. A pilot is somone who manages a mobile office. There is plenty of admin, lots of organisation, communication with different work groups, and of course the weird and wonderful passengers. If you have ever worked in a shop, restaurant, or bar you will know what I mean.
Very occasionally flying intrudes upon this world, but it is only temporary and short-lived, about 10% of the job I would say.
Anyway, when I started it seemed like a good idea. I thought that if you loved flying you would love being an airline pilot. Now I would say, if you would love to manage a fast food outlet that requires the odd bit of "hands on" management, consider airline flying.
Alternatively, try instructing, biz jets, air taxi work, you may not get rich but you will probably still retain some of the fun elements of flying.
I am currently an older (33 years old) student at one of the premier aviation universities in the US who decided to make a career change after previous employment as a professional athlete. Injury [un]fortunately ended my former career, thus giving me to the opportunity to attempt to fullfill my youthful ambitions and fascination with flight.
I came into aviation from what I thought had to be the most unstable and financially-stressful career possible, but lo and behold, I think I have found something worse -- commercial aviation. This [aviation] is one of the few employment opportunities that allows a person to "live a dream" while subsequently, getting paid to do something initially exciting and fun. At least this was my assumption prior to getting involved. I did as much research as was possible before putting out my applications for various flight-related universities, and felt that I had a good idea of what I was getting into. Heck, my mother is even a thirty year flight attendant with a US major and I have made many pilot contacts in aviation throughout the years.
Nothing prepared me for what I have truly come to recognize as the biggest problem/issue for wannabes: this is a passionate profession that people are willing to do what ever it takes to get to the top. It is extremely competitive and one must have the dedication and perseverence of an Olympic athlete to put up with the strain of finally landing the dream job -- a seat with a major. I was under the assumption that if a person was willing to work their ass off (as in sports), a job or an opportunity would become available upon the attainment of the required certificates and hours. How shocked I am to find that this is only a senority-based business and very little actually has to do with personal performance down the line. It's completely dependent on seats open and who has the money, hours, and contacts.
I currently have a 4.0 GPA (top honors in an american uni') but am seriously re-considering continuing this fall in the aviation program, and instead may look at other majors that look to have better employment options down the line. I love flying, but is it worth the risky job availability and intitial sub-standard pay to bank my economic future upon? I am married with two young children and I am willing to do what it takes to provide for their well-being, and I thought that a professional environment like an airline job would be a rational ticket; all the while allowing me to do a job that retains a level of respect thoughout the industrial world along with providing a stable and (eventually) large paycheck.
I am becoming concerned that this might not be an intelligent career decision for an older person with a family and limited finances. I cannot live off of whistfull dreams of flying the "friendly skies" and cool **** like "shooting approaches" (I hear this daily at school), I need security that if I do an exceptional job and continue to get top honors in school, positions will be available. I do not see this in aviation. I see this in almost all other technical professions, but not flying.
Maybe I am not looking hard enough (trust me, I am), but a career in aviation seems like that of an aspiring amateur athlete: there are absolutely no guarantees, it's a very long road, and it's going to require an intense sacrifice that might not be worth it in the end. I am convinced that if a person has a genuine interest in pursuing a career in aviation, then start young; before the wives, kids, and financial responsibilities. The intitial years of a pilot's career is very reminscent of my early days in sports, with the long hours, suspect employers, low pay, and always looking through a very dark tunnel and only occasionaly seeing a little bit of light at the end. Looking back, it's was a crazy idea to pursue professional sports as a career, and I was fortunate to have made it. But I would now never consider doing that with a family and their wellbeing dependent on me succeeding in pro sports. The point being is that is how aviation is starting to feel for me -- like an unrealistic career goal, dependent too much on luck (as in the industry's cyclical nature) and who you know.
Truthfully, I am tired from a life in sports and don't know if I want to go through that type of fight again. I don't mind working hard and will continue to bust my ass to succeed (the pursuit of excellence never goes away), I just want a little more confidence and security that there will be jobs in the industry; unfortunately, I don't see that at this time. The senoirity system scares the heck out of me and I don't want to have my promotion and paycheck dependent on who moves on from the company. I want it based upon to also be based upon performance.
Hopefully this didn't sound like a rant, but for all of the wannabes, just make a very realistic assessment as to what you (we) are getting into. It just might not be worth it in the long run.
Good post erv - I admire your honesty. The comparison with professional sports is interesting.
We get bombarded these days with the 'follow the dream' mentality - now while I think people should be encouraged to think they can achieve their highest ambitions through hard work, determination and skill, there's not enough focus on the flip side. This industry thrives on the fact that there is a nearly infinite line of potential employees desperate to be trained and willing to work longer hours for less financial reward (certainly in the UK) than similar professsionals receive in other occupations.
Wanabees
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you feel you have talents in other areas that could lead to a proper career structure with the chance of continual advancement and appropriate remuneration, then seriously consider that other career. The best fun you'll have is when you decide to go flying in your own aircraft.
I agree about starting young, and I'd also say that the military is maybe where you'll get that 'real' flying that we all dream of, even if you have to put up with a certain degree of b/s - but hey - there's loads of that in the airlines too, so what odds?
Personally, I think the bottom line is if you have no real commitments to anybody but yourself, or not following this dream would make you miserable for the rest of your days, then go for it.
But if you can see beyond gazing at the inside of a cloud for hours on end, you may well be selling yourself short both in terms of financial reward and lifestyle.
Erv, hope it all works out for you in whatever direction you decide to go.
Any wanabees wanna shoot me down in flames, feel free.
I think that most of you are right, I wannabee a pilot, but for now at least, I don't see myself as a big airline pilot, I don't even know if you really have fun when you flying your B7something 7, and that's true, there is no place for everybody, and less good place with good money and life.
I feel already old (almost 24), but I'm more attracted by Bush flying, why not even go volonteer in Africa or Latin America, cause I felt that my life in Europe was already the routine described, maybe in 10 years, I will be bored with flying, then I don't know, may be I will stop and do somenthing else (not easy, but possible), so I thing my advise should be for those who wannabee pilot, first finish school, to be able to get a job which pay your bills, and could help you to get another one if you lose your job (who know 11/09/200?) or get bored.
Maximum, erv and Harry are right. Often this job isn't all that it's cracked up to be. Once you stop enjoying it, and cynicism takes over the daily grind, it's probably time to leave - if you're qualified to do anything else!
I, on the other hand, do still enjoy it. I know I'm not going to have an iota of influence over the world's affairs, let alone change the world, and I know that my chances of even influencing my company's affairs are slight. I doubt that the 25-30 year-old hotshot 'managers' in my company have an inkling of who I am, or what I do. My chances of a command have disappeared to the right as a direct result of the post-9/11 retrenchment by the industry. I've lost two wives because I wsa never there. I earn less now than I did in the RAF six years ago - where promotion was entirely merit-based and pilots were openly assessed on their performance, not their medical. But I still enjoy it!
I still get a bit of a thrill when I walk up to my aeroplane at the start of a trip. I enjoy the feeling of being part of a team that has a well-defined task. I get a kick out of seeing the sun when the rest of the country is being rained on. I like reading the papers! I love going to distant places around the world, even if I don't always take advantage of that fact while I'm there. Landing one of these monsters still gives me great satisfaction. But perhaps most of all, I like the fact that I get more time off than any of my friends and I can actually pursue some of the interests that I always promised myself I would. I see my children far more than my accountant brother-in-law, who earns a lot more than me but hasn't seen his son outside of bed in a year! I have a small (remember the ex-wives?) house with a garden that gives me great pleasure. I have a social life in my town with a wide range of different people, all of whom have their own disillusionments and problems and who'd love to have my lifestyle.
Nothing is perfect. There are disadvantages to every walk of life. Just make sure that you go into whatever profession you choose with your eyes open. Don't expect things to live up to the glossy ads, or others' rumour-laden assumptions of what an airline pilot's life is like. Most of all, remember to enjoy life!
Scroggs,
That was an excellent read!! I am not prepared to say to myself in 30 yrs time"why why didn't I just go for it" I am now working in Leeds and everyday I see airplanes on their approach to Leeds Bradford Airport. It just fires me up even more. I really want this and God willing it will happen. Good luck to all you wannabies out there.
I wanna fly 747's for a job
Wannabees
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