Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies)A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.
There could be a positive for all of us struggling right now.
I supect in the years to come, airlines will question why all pilots are mecenary and go to whoever pays the highest wage, forcing the wage of experienced pilots up. There will be a generation of pilots who all think did the airline help me when I needed them? Investing in people's training is a great way to promote loyalty, but at the moment they won't pay because they don't need to.
As someone earlier pointed out, that now banks have stopped providing the loans for aviation, hopefully (and I'm sorry to anyone who this now hinders) the numbers will thin.
Airlines are going to get a lot of pilots from wealthy families, but are they going to get as many good ones?
One question I have. Why do companies such as Flybe, Ethiad or Kuwait Airlines still do sponsored or part-sponsored schemes? Just employ someone like me instead and save £50K. + no risk - I already have a frozen ATPL. Just seems weird when they won't take a lesser risk once you have your license, to type rate you. But Kudos to them for investing.
As someone earlier pointed out, that now banks have stopped providing the loans for aviation
Really? And where did you get that from?
It's funny cause I just got a loan, many of my friends just did as well, no problem whatsoever and believe me, it's not what you'd call a 'small loan'.
So, no, the banks have not stopped providing loans ... not yet at least.
Besides, the interest rates are a lot better than they used to be.
However, fewer people are starting training now, yes this is true.
Stop paying for basic training, type-rating, MCC, and line-training, and then line flying, offering yourselves as free workers. This is immoral. How can trained unemployed pilots get back lost jobs, which they need to pay their bills. And pay for their families.
Not a chance, with selfish (and daft) wannabees paying for everything themselves. You folk deserve nothing, at least until the unemployed have had a chance to get their jobs back. If it is in my power, I will not offer a job to a trainee ahead of an experienced pilot.
Because that's the nature of commercial enterprise??
Surely you can't believe that FTO's are content to sit back and wait for airlines to tell them when and how many more new pilots are required? Even if by some large stretch of imagination that were the case, what about the lead times involved in training them, not to mention the impacts of recessions and expansions? Throw in other unknown quantities like workforce health and the rest and the industry would be buggered if there wasn't a constant throughput.
Additionally (and assuming you're referring to airline companies hosting part or no-part sponsored schemes themselves), why wouldn't you if you were them?
Why wait for a suitable pilot to come along (assuming one IS available - if for whatever reason, there aren't, they have to make do with less than they would like?) when you can account for their students training and progress directly/first hand?
A friend of mine applied to Lufthansa - he was told anyone over 30 need not bother. Scientific studies shows the grey matter starts drying up (apparently) after a certain age and the demonstrated learning curve goes down as a result. There's still an awful lot of SOP and compliance training to be achieved by any experienced pilot who starts with another airline..
Critically, there may be a lot of experienced pilots but that's not to say that they're ideally suited to any specific airline's requirement.
Oh, and lest we forget, there's an opportunity to make a few bucks from the training as some do... again, pointing to the commercial nature of it all.
It´s not only about the airlines. There is also a good deal of pressure from pilot unions that vacancies cannot be filled.
Look how many new cockpit jobs were created at Lufthansa Italia this year. And who is flying these A319s now - Lufthansa crews represented by their union that refuses to have anybody else than a from the craddle Lufthansa pilot conduct a flight from Milan to say Barcelona.
I understand Lufthansa received more than 800 applications from Italian crews. Now they say too few passed the screening. Pathetic excuse - come on, we can´t all be that unskilled after all. No, it is the Lufthansa union that keeps foreign crews away from these jobs.
STOP, please!
Stop paying for basic training, type-rating, MCC, and line-training, and then line flying, offering yourselves as free workers. This is immoral. How can trained unemployed pilots get back lost jobs, which they need to pay their bills. And pay for their families.
Not a chance, with selfish (and daft) wannabees paying for everything themselves. You folk deserve nothing, at least until the unemployed have had a chance to get their jobs back. If it is in my power, I will not offer a job to a trainee ahead of an experienced pilot.
I am not alone.
Blaming only the wannabes (i am one of them) for the current situation is so cheap. And flaming on PPRuNe will not change anything. You are apparently one of the guys within the business but what did you do in the last years besides of whining and bashing wannabes? I bet you did nothing.
Stop spreading your hatred and frustration. And stop insulting other people here, go do something useful for all the unemployed experienced guys. I feel sorry for every single one of them, but I love flying and you don't have the right to judge about my passion and my future plans.
I suspect in the years to come, airlines will question why all pilots are mercenary and go to whoever pays the highest wage, forcing the wage of experienced pilots up. There will be a generation of pilots who all think did the airline help me when I needed them? Investing in people's training is a great way to promote loyalty, but at the moment they won't pay because they don't need to.
Why do you think that having sliding pay scales dependant upon the airline you go to is mercenary? Have a look at the real world, there has always been competition for quality, qualified and motivated employees and there always will be.
Why do pilots want to 'progress' from one company to another do you think? Simple, lifestyle and pay. Do you really want Flybe to pay for your training and then be 'bonded' flying for them for 45 years?
The upward trend in pay scales from the regionals to the nationals supports and protects the whole pilot T's & C's from the top to the bottom. If no one could move then why should the pay be improved?
The airline management would love to see your world come true. If they could they would boot us all out of the cockpit and let the computers do the job. Sadly we are seeing an environment where the perceived reliance on automatics is leading to a loss of core pilot skills in the community. If you have a low paid junior Captain who has not got these core skills in the first place it all goes to pieces when you need them the most.
I long for the days again where companies set up their own Cadet schemes. Where we can finally get back to having pilots who are screened for ability both in their piloting skills and their ability to integrate into the cockpit environment, have a concise, concentrated and directioned training package and the drive to work for the company at the end of it. Can we then get rid of the 'I got through because the cash didn't run out' brigade?
The current system, driven by the Airline managements desire to fleece every wannabee who comes close, is causing significant damage to the industry and the industry is waking up to it. Pilot unions have been clamouring for a stop, not only to protect the pilots in the union but also to protect those wannabees who are having to pay out extraordinary amounts of money.
The 'will pay to fly' brigade killed off the T's & C's in the rotary world hence I had to jump, now the same rot is setting in in the fixed wing world as well. I don't blame the wannabees at all, I perfectly understand that anyone will do what is needed to get that job and rightly so. It is the scurrilous management that has led to this system that I want to see removed and regulation on flying training and the routes into commercial airline flying tightened up to protect everyone from these money grabbing leeches.
Always remember that, if you get the foot in the door and start climbing the greasy pole after all your efforts and hard work, in 20 years time how will you feel when some 20 year something tells you 'you've had you turn and it was easy, stand aside and let us have a go, we're cheaper'. That time will come.
Many, many years ago through a very intensive and difficult to pass and, occasionally very dangerous military training regime back in the days when the airlines trained their own pilots, poached from the military or took the BCPL self improver's as the CAA accepted the validity of the self improver route back in those days.
Sadly that route has been all but closed off. The military has shrunk beyond all recognition and, whilst we have those who are willing to bleed cash to get the coveted green folder, there is no incentive for airlines to re-open the cadet scheme. The tail is currently wagging the dog.
Pays yer money takes yer choice but I honestly feel that the standards of piloting, where most of the training is simulator based, has declined over the last decade IMHO.
Last edited by wobble2plank : 12th September 2009 at 14:27.
Hey hows it goin, i have in my last 2 flights completed spinning(best fun ever by the way), stalling, and done the circuit with flaps, without flaps and the glide approach....just curious on average what else has to be done to go solo..
I've just made my decision. With the current outlooks, forget it, i'd rather study something else, work and gradually work my way up. No need for loans or worrys how to pay at the end of the month.
Linear Mode
