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Question about MCC - JOC. Please give some advise

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Question about MCC - JOC. Please give some advise

Old 22nd Jul 2015, 15:20
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Question Question about MCC - JOC. Please give some advise

Hello folks, I dont know if this have been posted before or not, I just tried to find it but I was unable. If this is due to my error, I apologize for possible double posts.

The next week, I will finish my ATPL integrated in a school in the area where I live, and im supposed to start the MCC just in a couple of weeks right after my in-flight exams @ Paris Orly - Air France facilities in the A320 full motion they have there. My question is, if the MCC is in a Full motion A320 and includes 30h MCC practice in the simulator, does it counts as a JOC too? I mean, its a Jet, and its full motion Level-D, but I dont really know about the burocracy including in licenses and other stuff like this.

Can someone help me clarify my mind? I would appreciate it.

Thanks in advance !
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Old 26th Jul 2015, 22:50
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Wow almost 400 reads not a single answer.
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Old 27th Jul 2015, 00:42
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The JOC is a british thing most EASA states don't include in their training, if they don't have an specific JOC course they will not give u any JOC! Anyway, why you want to do an MCC in an a320 FFS how many airlines hire low hour pilots with an A320! I would go to Simtech (ryanair use the simulator for the assesment) or CRM Aviation Europe!

By the way if u have passed the ATPLS (I am just a PPL) u should know that the MCC or JOC is not a rating (they aren't include in the licence), they are just certificates!

Save money and spend it in a FI rating!
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Old 27th Jul 2015, 08:26
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MCC ~ JOC

For the issue of your first multi pilot rating, you need to produce, inter alia, a MCC completion certificate from the approved training provider.
As a modular student, the MCC course comprises of 20 hours multi crew training in a simulator [PF : 10 hours & PM : 10 hours]. Five 4 hours sessions with a short break and seat swop after two hours.

If your course is 30 hours, it's quite possible that the JOC is embedded into the course. Speak to your training provider.

Although JOC is not a regulated course, a number of UK employers require a minimum exposure to multi crew simulator before the formal type rating.

Some would say that the harder part of the course is as PM.
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Old 27th Jul 2015, 09:34
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As parkfell says a JOC is not a regulated course. There is no syllabus, there are no prescribed hours.

The issue is that an MCC course can be run in a generic no motion simulator which may simulate either a jet or a turboprop and there is a perception amongst some employers, which I think is probably correct, that at its economical extreme, a cheap MCC course in a generic turboprop may give you the beginnings of a feeling for operating in a multi-crew environment but does very little to prepare you for the differences between operating light aircraft and jets in terms of capacity and handling techniques. This can be improved by using generic jet simulators or even 'real' simulators and including more handling time. Whether full motion is used or not seems to make very little difference. Whether this is treated as an expanded MCC course or as an MCC/JOC is just a marketing point. I would suspect that any airline specifying a JOC course prior to interview would also specify what they considered acceptable, either by recognising specific ATOs MCC/JOC courses as suitable or by setting out minimum standards.

FYI some ATO's advertise JOC courses which only involve 4 hours in the sim, two as PF and two as PM, some are 20 hours or so on top of the MCC (well done Oxford). There is a temptation to choose the cheapest, I would be inclined not to skimp at this point as the transition from single pilot piston to multi-pilot jet is the beginning of a new and very steep learning curve for most pilots.
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Old 27th Jul 2015, 19:58
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To operate a multi crew airliner it is mandatory to have completed an approved MCC course. For the Integrated ATPL student this element of training will be incorporated in the course and is generally of a high standard. For the Modular student he/she will have to source a suitable ATO providing MCC courses. The problem is that the quality delivered by some Modular providers can be at the minimum level, i.e. attendance alone will guarantee the award of a certificate.

As Alex says the airlines have witnessed this varying standard and now frequently insist on what has become known as the JOC, Jet Orientation Course. This is not mandatory and is not an approved course. JOC is open to varying standards, therefore most airlines will only accept JOC training from certain providers that have established a quality reputation.

Cheapest is not the best. A stand alone JOC of 4 hours is not a JOC, this is a waste of money. The minimum JOC should be combined with the MCC by adding suitable additional training beyond the bare minimum. If you already have an MCC certificate and want do add a JOC the minimum should be in the order of 20 hours with suitable theoretical knowledge training as well.

Full flight simulators add to the experience but this should not be main reason for deciding on a particular course. My advice for all students facing the MCC/JOC dilemma is to do your homework, ask the ATO what their MCC syllabus covers, is their JOC an add on, how many hours, are all exercise briefed and debriefed, are the exercises graded, can you fail the course. Ask them have their graduates been employed by airlines, what experience do their MCC instructors have, do they follow tailored SOP. Ask other graduates what they thought of the quality of training.

I delivered MCC/JOC courses for many years and the overwhelming demand from all my students and customer airlines was, and is, quality training, not price. My point of view when creating and delivering MCC and JOC was always to consider the ultimate objective, safety through professional operation. That's the end game, anything less is unacceptable.

Allan Dunne. Former HT Cardiff Aviation Training
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Old 28th Jul 2015, 06:40
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MCC ~ JOC

I entirely agree with the views of AW & AD.

This is the hardest part of the basic training for junior birdmen.
It is a quantum leap from single crew light twin aircraft flying, and multi crew jet operations.

Although power, attitude, and trim is still fundamental, it is the momentum which is one of the extra dimensions. Add to that very defined roles of PF & PM. No longer a one man band. The two actors on the stage.

Think of it as if you are going from a MINI 850 to a 38T HGV1 ~ Eddie Stobart wagon.

A great deal of preparation prior to each exercise is essential. Unless you get a feeling of déjà vu, you must ask yourself have I prepared well enough.
What is critical at this stage of training is the QUALITY of the ATO.
This is the most important part of the training as far ~ prior to your first MP type course.

Get this right, otherwise you put in jeopardy your future airline career.
Spent your money wisely..........think QUALITY QUALITY QUALITY everytime
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Old 29th Jul 2015, 12:31
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Having just completed my MCC at Oxford, I would say a full motion sim, while not necessary, most definitely adds to the realism during, for example, emergency descents (trying to hear and speak with those damn masks on is almost impossible).

In saying that, as has been mentioned, these are not assessable courses (we watched candidates put it in the ground 200m short of the runway) and continue to receive their (attendance) certificate.

I chose not to do the JOC, mostly due to the additional costs, as did the rest of the 12 or so Modular students in the class (only the Oxford cadets continued).

To answer your question, the simulator you are doing it in is irrelevant (motion vs non-motion and prop vs jet), and unless it is mentioned in your contract it would not be a combined MCC/JOC, but best speak with the training provider as 30 hours sim time for MCC alone seems too much (are you sure it’s not 10 hrs ground and 20 in the sim?).

Enjoy your time during this course, you will learn a lot, despite it not being assessed and you will have a lot of fun (probably the only time in your career you can fly and hang out with likeminded people and not be stressing about passing with 90% average) . If you are prepared and know your procedures the learning curve is not that great.
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Old 10th Aug 2015, 12:37
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Actually under EASA before the MCC certificate can be awarded the student must reach a "satisfactory standard". This means that all quality ATO's will have the exercises graded with minimum standards required. Each ATO is required to have their syllabus approved by the relevant NAA. This syllabus must cover the minimum requirements as stated by Part FCL and the associated GM's and AMC's. The ATO can submit a syllabus that exceeds this minimum requirement and if it's approved then the ATO must deliver that course.

In my many years of dealing with the UK CAA the Authority always insisted that the ATO is not obliged to issue a certificate if the student does not demonstrate sufficient standards, i.e. the MCC course is not to be considered attendance only.
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