Best trto for Type Rating
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BAA or cockpit4U are the TRTO for the A320
You can still find other training centres air Croatia has one training, you can still check at CAE (but the price is more expensive)
U need to dig a bit deeper by yourself because at the end it is your call and not mine!
I did it at BAA and for me it was fine but I have remarks about them also! There is not a perfect TRTO.
Money is a key aspect for most of us... The quality of the training is similar everywhere and I am afraid that they give the TR a bit to easily! At the end you pay for something and you get it!
Then if you plan to self fund your line training they also have different options with different prices!
But keep in mind that there is not a job guarantee after the training.
You can still find other training centres air Croatia has one training, you can still check at CAE (but the price is more expensive)
U need to dig a bit deeper by yourself because at the end it is your call and not mine!
I did it at BAA and for me it was fine but I have remarks about them also! There is not a perfect TRTO.
Money is a key aspect for most of us... The quality of the training is similar everywhere and I am afraid that they give the TR a bit to easily! At the end you pay for something and you get it!
Then if you plan to self fund your line training they also have different options with different prices!
But keep in mind that there is not a job guarantee after the training.
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Thanks Jean-Francois,
I appreciate your post.
I have just changed the title of thread so we can share our experience about
training of Type Rating on 737 or A320
Thanks to all
I appreciate your post.
I have just changed the title of thread so we can share our experience about
training of Type Rating on 737 or A320
Thanks to all
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Hey @Jean-Francois, did you have any success with any airline after your a320 type rating? Or do you feel it was an advantage over other candidates when applying for certain airlines. Thanks S.A.R
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Hi S.A.R.,
I appreciate your comment,
now we will wait for the response from Jean-Francois.
I understand your point of view.....why pay TR without a hope of job/line training?
Thanks
I appreciate your comment,
now we will wait for the response from Jean-Francois.
I understand your point of view.....why pay TR without a hope of job/line training?
Thanks
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I did my A320 TR in BAA. I'm not saying this TRTO was the best. It was OK and the price was fair. After TR I sent doezents (maybe hundreds) of CV to everywhere without any response. And after almost one year after TR I got invitation for first interview. And luckily I succeed.
The colleagues who were on TR with me went through P2F programme and as I know they are still in the line training.
I get the job not because of great TRTO but because of my attitude and hardworking. On the end nobody cares about your TRTO. There is no big difference between schools. Only the difference is between the students. Study harder than the others and you will get what you want. Good luck.
The colleagues who were on TR with me went through P2F programme and as I know they are still in the line training.
I get the job not because of great TRTO but because of my attitude and hardworking. On the end nobody cares about your TRTO. There is no big difference between schools. Only the difference is between the students. Study harder than the others and you will get what you want. Good luck.
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I fully agree with Lopki... It is up to you to succeed! When did you do your training if I may ask.
I did the training few months ago and I did not have the opportunity for the summer period. Next hiring period is in January so I hope to get something...
There is of course the P2F option.
Everyone is asking 'does it change something to get a TR?' For me this question is half relevant... Few years ago was it an advantage to be a FI? Some people would say yes but nowadays I am afraid that to be an FI with 1000hrs of instruction does not help you to get a job with an airline (jet fleet). So does it change something to get a TR today maybe yes... Or I am already too late as more and more people have a TR! The future will tell me if my choice was smart or not!
If there will be a job at the end of the training you will probably queue to start a TR knowing you will be hired somewhere!
Wizz is expanding but does not take cadet non rated and even rated ones low/no hours don't get a job! Still need to show 500hrs on type... Again the same question 'how to get experience on the bus if there is no one to give the opportunity to do so' that is why the self funding program is still one of the most popular options!
I did the training few months ago and I did not have the opportunity for the summer period. Next hiring period is in January so I hope to get something...
There is of course the P2F option.
Everyone is asking 'does it change something to get a TR?' For me this question is half relevant... Few years ago was it an advantage to be a FI? Some people would say yes but nowadays I am afraid that to be an FI with 1000hrs of instruction does not help you to get a job with an airline (jet fleet). So does it change something to get a TR today maybe yes... Or I am already too late as more and more people have a TR! The future will tell me if my choice was smart or not!
If there will be a job at the end of the training you will probably queue to start a TR knowing you will be hired somewhere!
Wizz is expanding but does not take cadet non rated and even rated ones low/no hours don't get a job! Still need to show 500hrs on type... Again the same question 'how to get experience on the bus if there is no one to give the opportunity to do so' that is why the self funding program is still one of the most popular options!
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Having TR without Hrs on Type will NOT help you to get a job.
Maybe 1 out of 500 will give you a shot with TR without Hrs on type. Is that worth to spend say 21K Eu ( TR + BT ) ? Its an expensive gamble. Your odds are better to take that 21K to Casino and play Roulette. Black or Red / Odd or Even. Then your chances are atleast 42%. Thats a lot better then 1 in 500.
Maybe you Lopki were very lucky. Yes you might have worked hard to get that job Finally, but all those thousands others might have worked also hard to get a job, but it does not work out. So basically a waste of money.
I also worked hard to get a job as a pilot ( without TR ). It did not give me a Pilot job , but I try the road of being Flight Attendant upto cockpit. And in Airline I work for , If I get the chance , I DONT have to pay for TR.
Paying for TR WITHOUT a job is absolute
. 
. With that you ruin the market.
Paying for TR like with FR, I can say, yes it aint great, but atleast you can earn back that money because the pay is pretty good.
Or like Wizz. Their offer is not the most shiny one, but contract itself aint bad. If its still like a year ago, then you get 3 yr contract. Pay is not great, but you can live from it in Eastern Europe.
And the FA's in Wizz. Yeah what can I say?
. Not bad , if you are still single 
. And living in Eastern Europe is quiet ok. Lived there for 2,5 yrs.
Just saying.
Maybe 1 out of 500 will give you a shot with TR without Hrs on type. Is that worth to spend say 21K Eu ( TR + BT ) ? Its an expensive gamble. Your odds are better to take that 21K to Casino and play Roulette. Black or Red / Odd or Even. Then your chances are atleast 42%. Thats a lot better then 1 in 500.
Maybe you Lopki were very lucky. Yes you might have worked hard to get that job Finally, but all those thousands others might have worked also hard to get a job, but it does not work out. So basically a waste of money.
I also worked hard to get a job as a pilot ( without TR ). It did not give me a Pilot job , but I try the road of being Flight Attendant upto cockpit. And in Airline I work for , If I get the chance , I DONT have to pay for TR.
Paying for TR WITHOUT a job is absolute
. . With that you ruin the market.Paying for TR like with FR, I can say, yes it aint great, but atleast you can earn back that money because the pay is pretty good.
Or like Wizz. Their offer is not the most shiny one, but contract itself aint bad. If its still like a year ago, then you get 3 yr contract. Pay is not great, but you can live from it in Eastern Europe.
And the FA's in Wizz. Yeah what can I say?
. Not bad , if you are still single . And living in Eastern Europe is quiet ok. Lived there for 2,5 yrs.Just saying.
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Maybe everyone should play casino according to your number! But the fact is not everyone does because I guess at the end the casino wins!
Here we are talking about getting something additional in order to boost your CV or to be more bankable by the companies!
I will agree with the ones saying that a TR without hours is a crazy things but you never know! Few years ago it was a must to have a FI with 1000hrs or to have hours on paradroping or gliders towing!
Nowadays they do not even care about these experiences!
Now it is time for the so called hours on type! 1000hrs propeller Vs 300hrs jet... You know what matters for them!
Some of us are working really hard and not only during their trainings... I am sorry but not everyone is willing to sacrifice his/her life to be a pilot! Of course the prestige of the careers has shifted to the wrong side but I don't want to wait 10 years to access to the RH seat of an airliner cockpit.
Everyone has the choice of its own path...
The most important for you is to reach your goal! Whatever it takes...
A friend of mine is at EZY as a cabin crew and he will try to move from this department to the cockpit.
Another friend took the path of P2F and he is currently employed in Europe.
Others are still waiting for more than 2-3 years to get at least a job interview!
The example of RYR is funny... Paying for a TR which cost them...well...nothing! I assimilate that to a P2F. Come on a TR on a B737 costs 14k and you pay it the double plus the other expenses! You do the LT then you finally have the job... That is the only advantage in comparison with the other LT (p2f)
If you go with Cockpit4U you were able to get a deal of 47k TR and LT with a-18 month contract and a salary every month plus 50hrs guaranted per month with Germania! So a p2f where you earn a little bit less than 30k and you will finish with 900hrs on type.
I will agree with you that the p2f is not the way I have expected but look around you! The companies have understood that a long time ago! Easy incomes while waiting for the next summer season!
There is not a lot of companies hiring cadet low hours without a type, not a lot hiring cadet rated but low (or no) hours!
You need to have at least 500hrs to be maybe called!!!
In conclusion you can work hard and get no job but you can also work hard and get some tools in order to get the job! And of course you can also do nothing and get nothing!
Here we are talking about getting something additional in order to boost your CV or to be more bankable by the companies!
I will agree with the ones saying that a TR without hours is a crazy things but you never know! Few years ago it was a must to have a FI with 1000hrs or to have hours on paradroping or gliders towing!
Nowadays they do not even care about these experiences!
Now it is time for the so called hours on type! 1000hrs propeller Vs 300hrs jet... You know what matters for them!
Some of us are working really hard and not only during their trainings... I am sorry but not everyone is willing to sacrifice his/her life to be a pilot! Of course the prestige of the careers has shifted to the wrong side but I don't want to wait 10 years to access to the RH seat of an airliner cockpit.
Everyone has the choice of its own path...
The most important for you is to reach your goal! Whatever it takes...
A friend of mine is at EZY as a cabin crew and he will try to move from this department to the cockpit.
Another friend took the path of P2F and he is currently employed in Europe.
Others are still waiting for more than 2-3 years to get at least a job interview!
The example of RYR is funny... Paying for a TR which cost them...well...nothing! I assimilate that to a P2F. Come on a TR on a B737 costs 14k and you pay it the double plus the other expenses! You do the LT then you finally have the job... That is the only advantage in comparison with the other LT (p2f)
If you go with Cockpit4U you were able to get a deal of 47k TR and LT with a-18 month contract and a salary every month plus 50hrs guaranted per month with Germania! So a p2f where you earn a little bit less than 30k and you will finish with 900hrs on type.
I will agree with you that the p2f is not the way I have expected but look around you! The companies have understood that a long time ago! Easy incomes while waiting for the next summer season!
There is not a lot of companies hiring cadet low hours without a type, not a lot hiring cadet rated but low (or no) hours!
You need to have at least 500hrs to be maybe called!!!
In conclusion you can work hard and get no job but you can also work hard and get some tools in order to get the job! And of course you can also do nothing and get nothing!
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Then I declare you Jean as a big idiot who is part of ruining his own position but most importantly for your colleagues.
Here in Germany my colleagues in the cockpit hate Germania and have NO respect for the guys who paid to fly. They actually disgrace them. 47K. Do you have any idea how much money that is? I saw numbers of 60K for their programs.
Id rather be jobless then that I take someone elses job and let that person losing his job , maybe his marriage. Bringing home situation in trouble, then that I have to pay.
If you work for an company, you bring revenue. Without YOU they CANNOT fly. No flying is no income.
As an appreciation they suppose to pay you a proper salary + plus sector pay or whatsoever, like every NORMAL company would do.
Myself I work hard also. Give 200% every day as an FA. And hopefully that will bring me soon a job as FO. And guess what. I will NOT have to pay for my TR. And the contracts are pretty good. Aswell the secondairy conditions.
Also many Ramp Agents and Flight Attendants are hired and start their training soon for their TR.
In Germany they appreciate this way of coming into the RHS. Much more then thoses who take the shortcut by doing those P2F.
And Ryan Air aint P2F. You really have to learn the difference.
Ryan air you pay indeed 28K for TR + BT + LC. But you really have to screw it up a lot to not make it. That doesnt say that because of particular situations you could fail. But normally you would get through it. Then afterwords you have pretty ok Salary.
Anyhow. More and more airlines start to do something against P2F by raising min hrs on type from 500 to 550. Its a small difference, but that is exactly the thing what cut out all thoses who did this disgraceful P2F programs.
Seriously. I could write a book about my disgrace and my hattriot for these kind of things, but now I have to stop. I will go to sleep.
Ow and an EDIT:
- It maybe looks nice at the end of such a program that you have 500 Hrs On type, but in most of those programs you will not fly the plane. Usually you are sitting in RHS to do paperwork and being a radio operator. And if you are lucky, you may operate flaps and landing gear.
Also many programs are in countries where CRM is NOT existing and are in blacklisted airlines. You should shut up and do what the captain tells you to do, namely operating MAYBE flaps and landing gear. Telling him in unstable approach to abort approach and go around is OUT OF THE QUESTION. Risk of this is crashing, and dying. Also maintenance in such airlines is not optimal.
Myself I had an option in some country I would rather not live because of above mentioned things. Many pilots there fly approx 110 hrs a month. Sorry, but that is suicide.
Besides. If you have flown in blacklisted airline, it is almost impossible to get back to civilized world to get proper pilot job in for example Europe. No way to built normal family life.
Think about it.
Here in Germany my colleagues in the cockpit hate Germania and have NO respect for the guys who paid to fly. They actually disgrace them. 47K. Do you have any idea how much money that is? I saw numbers of 60K for their programs.
Id rather be jobless then that I take someone elses job and let that person losing his job , maybe his marriage. Bringing home situation in trouble, then that I have to pay.
If you work for an company, you bring revenue. Without YOU they CANNOT fly. No flying is no income.
As an appreciation they suppose to pay you a proper salary + plus sector pay or whatsoever, like every NORMAL company would do.
Myself I work hard also. Give 200% every day as an FA. And hopefully that will bring me soon a job as FO. And guess what. I will NOT have to pay for my TR. And the contracts are pretty good. Aswell the secondairy conditions.
Also many Ramp Agents and Flight Attendants are hired and start their training soon for their TR.
In Germany they appreciate this way of coming into the RHS. Much more then those
s who take the shortcut by doing those P2F.And Ryan Air aint P2F. You really have to learn the difference.
Ryan air you pay indeed 28K for TR + BT + LC. But you really have to screw it up a lot to not make it. That doesnt say that because of particular situations you could fail. But normally you would get through it. Then afterwords you have pretty ok Salary.
Anyhow. More and more airlines start to do something against P2F by raising min hrs on type from 500 to 550. Its a small difference, but that is exactly the thing what cut out all those
s who did this disgraceful P2F programs.Seriously. I could write a book about my disgrace and my hattriot for these kind of things, but now I have to stop. I will go to sleep.
Ow and an EDIT:
- It maybe looks nice at the end of such a program that you have 500 Hrs On type, but in most of those programs you will not fly the plane. Usually you are sitting in RHS to do paperwork and being a radio operator. And if you are lucky, you may operate flaps and landing gear.
Also many programs are in countries where CRM is NOT existing and are in blacklisted airlines. You should shut up and do what the captain tells you to do, namely operating MAYBE flaps and landing gear. Telling him in unstable approach to abort approach and go around is OUT OF THE QUESTION. Risk of this is crashing, and dying. Also maintenance in such airlines is not optimal.
Myself I had an option in some country I would rather not live because of above mentioned things. Many pilots there fly approx 110 hrs a month. Sorry, but that is suicide.
Besides. If you have flown in blacklisted airline, it is almost impossible to get back to civilized world to get proper pilot job in for example Europe. No way to built normal family life.
Think about it.
Last edited by P40Warhawk; 7th Oct 2014 at 22:41.
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@P40Warhawk
I can understand your point of view on P2F. I do not agree with it either.
I admire your passion and good for you that you got a FA job in order to be inside the company to get upgraded to RHS.
I do not want to be the devils advocate here but WHO are you to declare someone an IDIOT??
I think you should be more respectful to others if you want to receive the same in return.
Because you are so brave on typing, would like to see that same attitude to someone you do not know at all face to face and Declare him an idiot, call me for that moment so I can film the slap in the face you will get
Aviation is a very small world!! You can disagree with someone but never impose your thoughts into others...
I can understand your point of view on P2F. I do not agree with it either.
I admire your passion and good for you that you got a FA job in order to be inside the company to get upgraded to RHS.
I do not want to be the devils advocate here but WHO are you to declare someone an IDIOT??
I think you should be more respectful to others if you want to receive the same in return.
Because you are so brave on typing, would like to see that same attitude to someone you do not know at all face to face and Declare him an idiot, call me for that moment so I can film the slap in the face you will get
Aviation is a very small world!! You can disagree with someone but never impose your thoughts into others...
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I do not want to be the devils advocate here but WHO are you to declare someone an IDIOT??
I think you should be more respectful to others if you want to receive the same in return.
Because you are so brave on typing, would like to see that same attitude to someone you do not know at all face to face and Declare him an idiot, call me for that moment so I can film the slap in the face you will get
I think you should be more respectful to others if you want to receive the same in return.
Because you are so brave on typing, would like to see that same attitude to someone you do not know at all face to face and Declare him an idiot, call me for that moment so I can film the slap in the face you will get
idiot.I've said that to plenty of people's faces and never been slapped yet, because they normally agree with me. That is of course, AFTER they spent the money on the P2F and still didn't find a real job afterwards. Which is actually what happens to most of them.
Aviation IS a very small world, so don't do things that will make your future work colleagues despise you.
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@Luke SkyToddler
I dont do P2F,only paying I did was for my training for CPL, I fly a 737 and get pay for it, previously was a Cabin crew.
So please let's not start a conversation with how many hours of flying and years of experience you have..
But do you and P40Warhawk think that calling people Idiots makes you being in the right...
If nobody would pay to fly a different story would be, but reality is different in 2014, hope it will change.
But if you called me a Idiot just after meeting you... I would slap you so you learn to respect!! Your hours or years of experience do not make you better person to insult anyone!! Instead you should guide young ones with advice and not insults and patronising!
This forum unfortunately instead of helping others it deviates to haters and bragging how is better than who!!
I do not want to bring this conversation any further so, Respect!
I dont do P2F,only paying I did was for my training for CPL, I fly a 737 and get pay for it, previously was a Cabin crew.
So please let's not start a conversation with how many hours of flying and years of experience you have..
But do you and P40Warhawk think that calling people Idiots makes you being in the right...
If nobody would pay to fly a different story would be, but reality is different in 2014, hope it will change.
But if you called me a
Idiot just after meeting you... I would slap you so you learn to respect!! Your hours or years of experience do not make you better person to insult anyone!! Instead you should guide young ones with advice and not insults and patronising! This forum unfortunately instead of helping others it deviates to haters and bragging how is better than who!!
I do not want to bring this conversation any further so, Respect!
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Great comments from your side guys! I am not an idiot and I do play with children! I have my own and it is enough ;-)
The only thing I paid is my flight training and my TR on the bus!
10 years ago I would have paid my FI if I was in aviation... Today I did the choice to pay my TR and I am happy with that!
I will not comment the p2f because I do not want to... I have just said something about what are the option (good or bad). Please read the post next time you comment...
What are the companies which have changed their minima from 500 to 550 that you are talking about?
Being polite cost you nothing but if you are so nice with your passengers I am sure you are going to be a good captain! I am looking forward to be with you in the cockpit!
The only thing I paid is my flight training and my TR on the bus!
10 years ago I would have paid my FI if I was in aviation... Today I did the choice to pay my TR and I am happy with that!
I will not comment the p2f because I do not want to... I have just said something about what are the option (good or bad). Please read the post next time you comment...
What are the companies which have changed their minima from 500 to 550 that you are talking about?
Being polite cost you nothing but if you are so nice with your passengers I am sure you are going to be a good captain! I am looking forward to be with you in the cockpit!
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I am a very polite person. Actually lately I got e-mail from Chief Cabin Crew Department. She received an e-mail from an passenger where he praised me for my politeness , how motivated I was, and served the passenger so good.
But to people who choose to do P2F is my Politeness not existing. I have NO respect for P2F guys.
And which airlines raised their Hr req. you have to search for yourself. But I know a few. And hopefully they will say NO to any kind of LT program boys and girls.
All I am saying is, there are better ways to get pilot job. You can do ****ty jobs at the airport, such as loader, but being a loader you learn a lot , and while loading you can maybe have a chat with the Cpt. He can get you maybe in contact with Chief Flight Ops of his company.
Ramp Agent Same story. Cabin Crew. Then you are already in with 1 leg.
Many Airlines in the UK show their appreciation to their CC after some time and give them opportunity to move to RHS.
LT jobs are no jobs. Because you have to get paid for doing your job. We have invested enough in our F ATPL. So why MORE investing for a ''job'' where you get kicked out after you have done your hrs. And then sitting at home with only 500 hrs more then where you started. Still competing for those few amount of jobs with guys with 1000's more hours then you have with your 500 hrs. Why would they take you instead of a well experienced pilot? You have been only bookkeeper in the cockpit, Radio Flap and Gear Operator. No idea how actually fly an ILS or Non Precision Approach. Maybe not even certified to fly CATII or III. Which most well experienced FO's have done.
But to people who choose to do P2F is my Politeness not existing. I have NO respect for P2F guys.
And which airlines raised their Hr req. you have to search for yourself. But I know a few. And hopefully they will say NO to any kind of LT program boys and girls.
All I am saying is, there are better ways to get pilot job. You can do ****ty jobs at the airport, such as loader, but being a loader you learn a lot , and while loading you can maybe have a chat with the Cpt. He can get you maybe in contact with Chief Flight Ops of his company.
Ramp Agent Same story. Cabin Crew. Then you are already in with 1 leg.
Many Airlines in the UK show their appreciation to their CC after some time and give them opportunity to move to RHS.
LT jobs are no jobs. Because you have to get paid for doing your job. We have invested enough in our F ATPL. So why MORE investing for a ''job'' where you get kicked out after you have done your hrs. And then sitting at home with only 500 hrs more then where you started. Still competing for those few amount of jobs with guys with 1000's more hours then you have with your 500 hrs. Why would they take you instead of a well experienced pilot? You have been only bookkeeper in the cockpit, Radio Flap and Gear Operator. No idea how actually fly an ILS or Non Precision Approach. Maybe not even certified to fly CATII or III. Which most well experienced FO's have done.
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It is not an apologise but I will take it!
We all do job while waiting for a position to open! But again look around you from my friend circle only one has managed a job! I know one guy who went to RYR more than a year ago! The others do not even have a chance to catch an interview! How sad is that... In 3-4 years we won't be competitive anymore because brand new licensed pilots will be on the market!
Wizz is another company which is hiring but without experience you can forget about it!
I thought people are here to exchange experiences and also info... Especially we are all looking for a position! I don't know which company you are referring to and I am really curious!
A lot of companies (RYR, EZY,... Maybe more) don't appreciate the move from cabin to cockpit! Maybe you like to believe it because you work as a CC but what if you weren't! I am just saying it does not automatically brings you in front of the HR of the company!
As company are NOT choosing crew members on their talent, results, etc... One of the best way is still to know someone inside especially in the recruitment department.
I would love to be selected for my grades etc but it does not work! Almost 2 years after the end of my training and still nothing!
I know some people have been waiting longer... Crisis and the companies not willing to hire again! That was hard time... What about now where they all signed for new aircraft orders... It means additional crew! More jobs... But still how to get the job if your file is not even taking into consideration!
We all do
job while waiting for a position to open! But again look around you from my friend circle only one has managed a job! I know one guy who went to RYR more than a year ago! The others do not even have a chance to catch an interview! How sad is that... In 3-4 years we won't be competitive anymore because brand new licensed pilots will be on the market!Wizz is another company which is hiring but without experience you can forget about it!
I thought people are here to exchange experiences and also info... Especially we are all looking for a position! I don't know which company you are referring to and I am really curious!
A lot of companies (RYR, EZY,... Maybe more) don't appreciate the move from cabin to cockpit! Maybe you like to believe it because you work as a CC but what if you weren't! I am just saying it does not automatically brings you in front of the HR of the company!
As company are NOT choosing crew members on their talent, results, etc... One of the best way is still to know someone inside especially in the recruitment department.
I would love to be selected for my grades etc but it does not work! Almost 2 years after the end of my training and still nothing!
I know some people have been waiting longer... Crisis and the companies not willing to hire again! That was hard time... What about now where they all signed for new aircraft orders... It means additional crew! More jobs... But still how to get the job if your file is not even taking into consideration!
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Not strictly true. EJ regular run an internal scheme with a very heavily subsidised TR. In year one 90% were cabin crew, year two 50% cabin crew. So it it not true to say EJ don't appreciate it. You might learn anything about flying the plane, but your CRM and no techs are pretty top notch. You'll learn much more about it being crew than reading a few power point slides on your MCC/TR and airline induction (if and when that ever happens).
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: FL410
Age: 43
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Cockpit4u or RWL(German Flight Academy in Mönchengladbach)experience type rating.
Hi Pilots,
Does anybody have recent experience with these two trto?
Thanks
Does anybody have recent experience with these two trto?
Thanks