OZ CPL to JAA ATPL.
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OZ CPL to JAA ATPL.
I'm a European Passport holder currently undertaking a CPL in Australia (nearly finished), and have recently been considering going to Europe for ATPL and eventually work, but I have a few things I need clearing up in.
With a non-JAA, but ICAO CPL, can I go straight into ATPL studies in Europe? And if so, with a frozen-ATPL, can I work in Europe, or must I get a JAA CPL licence? If not, what would I need to do to get JAA CPL, is it just a flight test (I would have the hours + have done ATPL exams).
Also, I understand I would need a MECIR. I'm assuming it would be best to do this whole rating in Europe, so that no conversion would be necessary.
Lastly, my plan would to do the ATPL studies remotely non-integrated, any suggestions which ATO to do this with? I read somewhere, but am unsure, that a section of my studies would have to be done in a classroom environment, as this is a requirement. Is that correct, and if so, how much of it?
Thanks for any insight.
With a non-JAA, but ICAO CPL, can I go straight into ATPL studies in Europe? And if so, with a frozen-ATPL, can I work in Europe, or must I get a JAA CPL licence? If not, what would I need to do to get JAA CPL, is it just a flight test (I would have the hours + have done ATPL exams).
Also, I understand I would need a MECIR. I'm assuming it would be best to do this whole rating in Europe, so that no conversion would be necessary.
Lastly, my plan would to do the ATPL studies remotely non-integrated, any suggestions which ATO to do this with? I read somewhere, but am unsure, that a section of my studies would have to be done in a classroom environment, as this is a requirement. Is that correct, and if so, how much of it?
Thanks for any insight.
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Hello from Floreat side of Perth (few more days).
Be mindful of the 100hrs EASA compliant (ie not training w FI) PIC for licence issue (could be bit less for the conversion flying or whole 30hrs module, which won't be needed if you have Aus CPL). You may or may not have that doing CASA commercial.
'frozen atpl' is CPL with ATPL theory credit. Unlike CASA or FAA etc systems, most people in Europe, going for airlines etc, avoid repeating hasle/cost of courses. Which have to be through formal ground school provider even distance study with brush up classes/revision etc.
With Aus CPL, you can do 'training as required' for commercial. Due to the cost of MECIR in Australia, unless you plan to return here, not worth doing it. In Europe they normally do twin rating together with IR before or after CPL module, depending on one's plans/proficiency/experience. Importance of NDB/ADF stuff compared to FAA system for practical flying, but frequently used in Australia, so would still help. Some do their twin IR in Spain, some Brits look down on Spanish IR standards.
You can sign up even NOW for ATPL course for EASA. All you need is showing them ICAO PPL or higher, some IDs, etc. Nothing onerous.
CATS (Cranfield Aviation, now based in LUton and Gatwick) is probably cheapest in UK for DS ATPL course. Other 'major' is Bristol GS, CAPT (mainly for heli guys, but do A as well). Varies with revision delivery, though, as well as locations.
Anything else, you should do plenty research yourself from 'sticky' posts, etc. Done to death gazillion times in various threads, as well as 'how to' stickies. I just mentioned the few main things you should bear in mind.
200hrs modular CPL in CASA system or 150hr 'integrated' may not meet the EASA CPL requirements, due to some instrument and night training as well. Plus the 100hrs solo/buddies jolly flights if lowtimer (ie not PIC on comm ops, instructing etc in other system)
Be mindful of the 100hrs EASA compliant (ie not training w FI) PIC for licence issue (could be bit less for the conversion flying or whole 30hrs module, which won't be needed if you have Aus CPL). You may or may not have that doing CASA commercial.
'frozen atpl' is CPL with ATPL theory credit. Unlike CASA or FAA etc systems, most people in Europe, going for airlines etc, avoid repeating hasle/cost of courses. Which have to be through formal ground school provider even distance study with brush up classes/revision etc.
With Aus CPL, you can do 'training as required' for commercial. Due to the cost of MECIR in Australia, unless you plan to return here, not worth doing it. In Europe they normally do twin rating together with IR before or after CPL module, depending on one's plans/proficiency/experience. Importance of NDB/ADF stuff compared to FAA system for practical flying, but frequently used in Australia, so would still help. Some do their twin IR in Spain, some Brits look down on Spanish IR standards.
You can sign up even NOW for ATPL course for EASA. All you need is showing them ICAO PPL or higher, some IDs, etc. Nothing onerous.
CATS (Cranfield Aviation, now based in LUton and Gatwick) is probably cheapest in UK for DS ATPL course. Other 'major' is Bristol GS, CAPT (mainly for heli guys, but do A as well). Varies with revision delivery, though, as well as locations.
Anything else, you should do plenty research yourself from 'sticky' posts, etc. Done to death gazillion times in various threads, as well as 'how to' stickies. I just mentioned the few main things you should bear in mind.
200hrs modular CPL in CASA system or 150hr 'integrated' may not meet the EASA CPL requirements, due to some instrument and night training as well. Plus the 100hrs solo/buddies jolly flights if lowtimer (ie not PIC on comm ops, instructing etc in other system)
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If you intend to do a modular course, as far as the theoretical knowledge goes, you only require an ICAO PPL, so the CPL would be OK.
10% of the study time must be done in the classroom which, for the ATPL, is at least 65 hours. Some schools do way more than that - but essentially it will be distance learning.
10% of the study time must be done in the classroom which, for the ATPL, is at least 65 hours. Some schools do way more than that - but essentially it will be distance learning.
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have recently been considering going to Europe for ATPL and eventually work
CATS (Cranfield Aviation, now based in LUton and Gatwick) is probably cheapest in UK for DS ATPL course
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I will soon have about 70-75 hours PIC, with a CPL(A) with a NVFR rating.
So, if I understand it correctly, I will need 100 hours as PIC in order to have a JAA licence issued.
Would this process be valid, or am I missing something.
Do ATPL distance learning through an ATO while getting about 30 hours of PIC flying done first.
When I have finished those hours and done most my studying, go to an ATO in Europe to finish last part of studies, do the exams, complete a MECIR, and do a skills test.
Having completed all that, would I be good to go looking for work? Anything I missed?
So, if I understand it correctly, I will need 100 hours as PIC in order to have a JAA licence issued.
Would this process be valid, or am I missing something.
Do ATPL distance learning through an ATO while getting about 30 hours of PIC flying done first.
When I have finished those hours and done most my studying, go to an ATO in Europe to finish last part of studies, do the exams, complete a MECIR, and do a skills test.
Having completed all that, would I be good to go looking for work? Anything I missed?
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alb92, maybe you can consider heading down to CAE/ OAA campus down in melbourne to do your easa atpl papers. not sure if they offer but they sure can help point you in the right direction
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Having completed all that, would I be good to go looking for work? Anything I missed?
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It will not be minimum of qualifications, perhaps flying wise, but I do have a bachelor of engineering, which will always look good on any cv. Also, I won't necessarily be looking for work in the UK, I come from another European nation, where there isn't much local pilot training, so the pool of pilots who speak the local language is not quite as big (and there are two relatively large airlines hiring).
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degree is of any practical use, more or less only in USA for legacy airlines as 'weeding out' part of recruitment from commuter/charter/regional flying jocks.
What Hobo meant is that it's quite a slaughter in Europe for airline wannabes straight from school, with little GA in Europe in general (majority fits into: skydiving drops, instructing and some local scenics maybe being majority, except some 'specialty' flying like firefighting on Dromaders in Spain and the like, for tailwheel pilots and some casual glider towing, mostly unpaid)
Minimum criteria are CPL/MEIR, MCC, medical. With no jet/TP time etc, you'd not stand out from the hordes of jobles airline wannabes.
For pax transport on small stuff, you're looking at the regs where it must be twin (piston) and IFR stuff and the regs don't let newbie do it, let alone hiring minima. So, while you can 'jump' all the GA Stationair or Airvan etc flying jobs in Aus or Canada, it's not as easy.
Are you ready to cough up for overpriced 737 TR with Ryanair on no guarantee of hours contract, if they so nicely offer you job on conditions? That's after all the Euro ratings/licenses expenses. Not current on easyjet hiring right now, but it's been through few bigger schools mostly, too.
I don't have euro comm yet (had other stuff in piplline) and I don't aim for European airlines anyway, but the 100hrs PIC and 200TT is for licence issue. So one can do the MEIR (you have enough PIC hours for that), CPL module or combined, improving continuity if with same provider, then knock off 10-20hrs rental/flying buddies chipping in, around, THEN applying for licence with all the paperwork. CPL flight test does not equal being eligible for licence to be issued, per se. I know it sounds funny, but thee could be exceptions. Also, some limited PIC hours from other categories can count towards the 200hrs total if needed. Normally not applicable unless you don't do much SEP flying with instructor onboard for private.
With your Aus CPL, I'd vaguely recommend doing VFR flyign for CPL first. Part of the hood time for NVFR should count towards the 10hrs instrument for CPL, or rather, waived as not needed to repeat in CPL course.
Did I mention that with all the theory passes, you'd be ready to do 'trainign as required' if meeting the rest of requirements? Not licence ISSUE, just for CPL course/flight test. Meaning if you're ready, you're ready. The VFR flyin will also help you get used to any differences.
Some Brits/Irish do their CPL/MEIR flying portion in Poland or Spain, few in Czech Rep. Now with EASA regulations, some things are easier, but country holding your medical records is the one issuing/renewing/adding ratings to licenses. Few caveats to mind as well.
As mentioned, some ASL locations may have approval to provide UK CAA CPL/ATPL exams. If you google UK CAAi (International), they'd show few locations including Kuala Lumpur etc. Not worth the premium and travel if you're gonna go to UK anyway.
As Paco reminded, any distance study course includes theory revision clases, so unless some school has arrangements with foreing schools for the actual classes, the graduation/completion cert requirements won't be met for you to sit the exams. Couple in USA for example. Used to be in Australia as WAAC this neck of woods 9WA).
I don't know if you can stay in Australia past your studies, your nationalities/residence status, but although not easy, in a way, more protracted rogression, but more doable than YES/NO situation with airline jobs as 'starter job' in Europe outside few exceptions I mentioned and those hardly pay rent/food/beer if at all.
What Hobo meant is that it's quite a slaughter in Europe for airline wannabes straight from school, with little GA in Europe in general (majority fits into: skydiving drops, instructing and some local scenics maybe being majority, except some 'specialty' flying like firefighting on Dromaders in Spain and the like, for tailwheel pilots and some casual glider towing, mostly unpaid)
Minimum criteria are CPL/MEIR, MCC, medical. With no jet/TP time etc, you'd not stand out from the hordes of jobles airline wannabes.
For pax transport on small stuff, you're looking at the regs where it must be twin (piston) and IFR stuff and the regs don't let newbie do it, let alone hiring minima. So, while you can 'jump' all the GA Stationair or Airvan etc flying jobs in Aus or Canada, it's not as easy.
Are you ready to cough up for overpriced 737 TR with Ryanair on no guarantee of hours contract, if they so nicely offer you job on conditions? That's after all the Euro ratings/licenses expenses. Not current on easyjet hiring right now, but it's been through few bigger schools mostly, too.
I don't have euro comm yet (had other stuff in piplline) and I don't aim for European airlines anyway, but the 100hrs PIC and 200TT is for licence issue. So one can do the MEIR (you have enough PIC hours for that), CPL module or combined, improving continuity if with same provider, then knock off 10-20hrs rental/flying buddies chipping in, around, THEN applying for licence with all the paperwork. CPL flight test does not equal being eligible for licence to be issued, per se. I know it sounds funny, but thee could be exceptions. Also, some limited PIC hours from other categories can count towards the 200hrs total if needed. Normally not applicable unless you don't do much SEP flying with instructor onboard for private.
With your Aus CPL, I'd vaguely recommend doing VFR flyign for CPL first. Part of the hood time for NVFR should count towards the 10hrs instrument for CPL, or rather, waived as not needed to repeat in CPL course.
Did I mention that with all the theory passes, you'd be ready to do 'trainign as required' if meeting the rest of requirements? Not licence ISSUE, just for CPL course/flight test. Meaning if you're ready, you're ready. The VFR flyin will also help you get used to any differences.
Some Brits/Irish do their CPL/MEIR flying portion in Poland or Spain, few in Czech Rep. Now with EASA regulations, some things are easier, but country holding your medical records is the one issuing/renewing/adding ratings to licenses. Few caveats to mind as well.
As mentioned, some ASL locations may have approval to provide UK CAA CPL/ATPL exams. If you google UK CAAi (International), they'd show few locations including Kuala Lumpur etc. Not worth the premium and travel if you're gonna go to UK anyway.
As Paco reminded, any distance study course includes theory revision clases, so unless some school has arrangements with foreing schools for the actual classes, the graduation/completion cert requirements won't be met for you to sit the exams. Couple in USA for example. Used to be in Australia as WAAC this neck of woods 9WA).
I don't know if you can stay in Australia past your studies, your nationalities/residence status, but although not easy, in a way, more protracted rogression, but more doable than YES/NO situation with airline jobs as 'starter job' in Europe outside few exceptions I mentioned and those hardly pay rent/food/beer if at all.
