Hour Building USA - (Master thread)
Cap804 section 1 part E page 3 and page 13. I know cap804 is now reference only, but it gives the gist of their thinking.
Safety pilot time in Europe cannot be logged, despite being a required crew member. Daft I know, but that means you can't count it towards total time. However, safety pilot time flown in the US, under US regulations CAN be logged as PIC (by acting as PIC and accepting responsibility for the flight) and can count towards total time.
If you fly it and are required, you can log it.
But because safety pilot time doesn't get logged in Europe, those hours won't be counted towards licence issue. Cap804 doesn't say your can't have those hours in your logbook, it just says you can't use them for licence issue.
Safety pilot time in Europe cannot be logged, despite being a required crew member. Daft I know, but that means you can't count it towards total time. However, safety pilot time flown in the US, under US regulations CAN be logged as PIC (by acting as PIC and accepting responsibility for the flight) and can count towards total time.
If you fly it and are required, you can log it.
But because safety pilot time doesn't get logged in Europe, those hours won't be counted towards licence issue. Cap804 doesn't say your can't have those hours in your logbook, it just says you can't use them for licence issue.
rudestuff, thank you for your patience and the references to CAP804.
Section 3.6
This advisory information will result in the absurd situation in which neither pilot may log time for Part-FCL, and UK, licensing purposes. Specifically, it contradicts Part-FCL which allows for pilot-in-command time accumulated when acting as pilot-in-command to be counted towards Part-FCL requirements.
For UK and Part-FCL purposes a non-instructed person manipulating the controls, who does not act as pilot-in-command, is deemed to be either a passenger or a candidate undergoing a test, check, or assessment. It is entirely reasonable that such a person when he is a passenger may not log any time on a single-pilot aircraft for Part-FCL or UK purposes. It is not, however, reasonable to discredit the acting pilot-in-command who has undertaken the responsibilities and duties of the position, who has been liable for the safe operation of the aircraft and the safety of its occupants (ironically this outcome under the right conditions can exist under US regulations—Speranza 2009 refers).
Those of you who advocate that a safety pilot cannot be credited with pilot-in-command time for the period when he acted as pilot-in-command are in fact advocating for a rule disallowing creditable logging by the acting pilot-in-command for the period during which a passenger manipulate the controls. Alternatively, permitting one of the two persons to log pilot-in-command time, but prohibiting the acting pilot-in-command from doing so, results in the passenger logging PIC. Both of these outcomes are absurd.
Section 9: Guide to log annotations
Case A specifies that the pilot whose operating capacity is pilot-in-command should enter time in the P1 column of the logbook. Case N specifies that a pilot whose operating capacity is safety pilot may log supernumerary time. Within the framework of UK and European regulations these designations are mutually exclusive. The designations are not mutually exclusive under US regulations where a safety pilot may also be the acting pilot-in-command so this section in CAP804 fails to provide a clear indication of UK policy.
Section 3.6
Logging of Flight Hours gained in the USA
Some flight hour recording practices allowable in the USA do not comply with European
and UK requirements. In particular:
• 2 pilots flying together in a single pilot aircraft both claiming P1 hours;
• One pilot accompanying another on newsgathering or traffic control flights and
claiming P1/PIC when they have not acted as Captain or signed for the aircraft.
Flying hours of this nature cannot be credited towards the requirements for Part-FCL or
UK Licences.
Some flight hour recording practices allowable in the USA do not comply with European
and UK requirements. In particular:
• 2 pilots flying together in a single pilot aircraft both claiming P1 hours;
• One pilot accompanying another on newsgathering or traffic control flights and
claiming P1/PIC when they have not acted as Captain or signed for the aircraft.
Flying hours of this nature cannot be credited towards the requirements for Part-FCL or
UK Licences.
For UK and Part-FCL purposes a non-instructed person manipulating the controls, who does not act as pilot-in-command, is deemed to be either a passenger or a candidate undergoing a test, check, or assessment. It is entirely reasonable that such a person when he is a passenger may not log any time on a single-pilot aircraft for Part-FCL or UK purposes. It is not, however, reasonable to discredit the acting pilot-in-command who has undertaken the responsibilities and duties of the position, who has been liable for the safe operation of the aircraft and the safety of its occupants (ironically this outcome under the right conditions can exist under US regulations—Speranza 2009 refers).
Those of you who advocate that a safety pilot cannot be credited with pilot-in-command time for the period when he acted as pilot-in-command are in fact advocating for a rule disallowing creditable logging by the acting pilot-in-command for the period during which a passenger manipulate the controls. Alternatively, permitting one of the two persons to log pilot-in-command time, but prohibiting the acting pilot-in-command from doing so, results in the passenger logging PIC. Both of these outcomes are absurd.
Section 9: Guide to log annotations
Case A specifies that the pilot whose operating capacity is pilot-in-command should enter time in the P1 column of the logbook. Case N specifies that a pilot whose operating capacity is safety pilot may log supernumerary time. Within the framework of UK and European regulations these designations are mutually exclusive. The designations are not mutually exclusive under US regulations where a safety pilot may also be the acting pilot-in-command so this section in CAP804 fails to provide a clear indication of UK policy.
No one is saying that a safety pilot acting as PIC in the US isn't PIC. It happened in the US, under their rules and the Feds recognise it.
What they ARE saying is that because someone else has also logged PIC, which is inconsistent with EASA rules, there is now doubt as to who gets the PIC credit. To accurately credit PIC hours, you would need to supply your logbook, and the logbooks of every safety pilot you have flown with, which would all need to have accurately recorded who was 'acting' and who was not (a distinction not likely or required) - so that they could assign PIC and SNY. Clearly this would be completely impractical, so the simplest solution is to simply disallow (for licence issue) the relevant hours.
Put simply, a flight has to have a PIC, and the safety pilot would be deemed to be the PIC. The problem is in proving it.
What they ARE saying is that because someone else has also logged PIC, which is inconsistent with EASA rules, there is now doubt as to who gets the PIC credit. To accurately credit PIC hours, you would need to supply your logbook, and the logbooks of every safety pilot you have flown with, which would all need to have accurately recorded who was 'acting' and who was not (a distinction not likely or required) - so that they could assign PIC and SNY. Clearly this would be completely impractical, so the simplest solution is to simply disallow (for licence issue) the relevant hours.
Put simply, a flight has to have a PIC, and the safety pilot would be deemed to be the PIC. The problem is in proving it.
To accurately credit PIC hours, you would need to supply ... the logbooks of every safety pilot you have flown with
... the safety pilot would be deemed to be the PIC. The problem is in proving it.
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Hello,
Who went through the EASA - FAA PPL conversion (verification of foreign license) lately?
After all the paperwork with CAA and FAA done and after receiving the verification letter, the process used to be like this:
1) Make an appointment in the designated FSDO (the one you elected when you sent your form 8060-71 to the FAA)
2) Go to the FSDO with your license and medical and get them verified, a process that usually took about 20 min. Then get your FAA certificate printed (the plastic one sent to your home address in about 3 months)
3) Do a Biennial Flight Review (now just called Flight review) and you are done, you can legally fly N reg ac according to the privileges of your EASA license.
*this process done by the FSDO, checking your license and even sending you the plastic license was totally free of charge.
Having everything I called the FSDO which I chose, they told me that they no longer do conversion process and didn't even told me how to proceed, they told me to call the airman certification office in Oklahoma. The office told me that this is the FSDO responsibility and asked me to contact them (infinity loop?)
I found out that now what is being done in some places is the following:
1) You call one of the Designated Pilot Examiners (DPE) that work in the region covered by the FSDO that you chose and then this DPE will do what the FSDO used to do.
2) Take the Flight review and your done.
The question is: This process used to be free. Now, the DPEs that I've talked with, want $250 for this service (checking your license, medical and ID and printing the provisory FAA certificate).
Is that a new procedure in all FSDO in USA or just a way that some of them found to get money out of a process that was free of charge?
Who went through the EASA - FAA PPL conversion (verification of foreign license) lately?
After all the paperwork with CAA and FAA done and after receiving the verification letter, the process used to be like this:
1) Make an appointment in the designated FSDO (the one you elected when you sent your form 8060-71 to the FAA)
2) Go to the FSDO with your license and medical and get them verified, a process that usually took about 20 min. Then get your FAA certificate printed (the plastic one sent to your home address in about 3 months)
3) Do a Biennial Flight Review (now just called Flight review) and you are done, you can legally fly N reg ac according to the privileges of your EASA license.
*this process done by the FSDO, checking your license and even sending you the plastic license was totally free of charge.
Having everything I called the FSDO which I chose, they told me that they no longer do conversion process and didn't even told me how to proceed, they told me to call the airman certification office in Oklahoma. The office told me that this is the FSDO responsibility and asked me to contact them (infinity loop?)
I found out that now what is being done in some places is the following:
1) You call one of the Designated Pilot Examiners (DPE) that work in the region covered by the FSDO that you chose and then this DPE will do what the FSDO used to do.
2) Take the Flight review and your done.
The question is: This process used to be free. Now, the DPEs that I've talked with, want $250 for this service (checking your license, medical and ID and printing the provisory FAA certificate).
Is that a new procedure in all FSDO in USA or just a way that some of them found to get money out of a process that was free of charge?
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It could be. But it's Florida...
In FAA's website when you search for the FSDO you find that there are 3. The one in Orlando doesn't do license conversion (it' written there);
The one in Tampa I couldn't reach by phone, but its written there that you could do it directly with a DPE;
Miramar answered that they no longer do it, and I was told that the DPE would need a $250 for the service.
You know, if it's a federal fee for the service I would understand, but I don't get it why the FSDO is addressing people to the DPEs and they are charging all this money to do something that the FSDO could do in few minutes.
In FAA's website when you search for the FSDO you find that there are 3. The one in Orlando doesn't do license conversion (it' written there);
The one in Tampa I couldn't reach by phone, but its written there that you could do it directly with a DPE;
Miramar answered that they no longer do it, and I was told that the DPE would need a $250 for the service.
You know, if it's a federal fee for the service I would understand, but I don't get it why the FSDO is addressing people to the DPEs and they are charging all this money to do something that the FSDO could do in few minutes.
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It could be. But it's Florida...
In FAA's website when you search for the FSDO you find that there are 3. The one in Orlando doesn't do license conversion (it' written there);
The one in Tampa I couldn't reach by phone, but its written there that you could do it directly with a DPE;
Miramar answered that they no longer do it, and I was told that the DPE would need a $250 for the service.
You know, if it's a federal fee for the service I would understand, but I don't get it why the FSDO is addressing people to the DPEs and they are charging all this money to do something that the FSDO could do in few minutes.
In FAA's website when you search for the FSDO you find that there are 3. The one in Orlando doesn't do license conversion (it' written there);
The one in Tampa I couldn't reach by phone, but its written there that you could do it directly with a DPE;
Miramar answered that they no longer do it, and I was told that the DPE would need a $250 for the service.
You know, if it's a federal fee for the service I would understand, but I don't get it why the FSDO is addressing people to the DPEs and they are charging all this money to do something that the FSDO could do in few minutes.
Friend of mine did it recently with them, examiner fee was waaaaay less than the described 250, I believe he had an admin fee for the flight school cuz they did lots of the processing plus the usual stuff for the Flight Review (which was probably well warranted to get comfortable with flying outside of Europe). Sorry it's in German :-).
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Hi everyone,
I'm currently looking for a place to do 100hrs time building in the USA between March and April 2018. I'm already aware of the paperwork so I "only" need to find a place to rent an aircraft now.
Ideally, I would like to find a place where we can rent the plane and travel with (why not using the 100hrs to visit a bit!)
However, I've done all my PPL on EFIS equipped planes and I'm not very confident in coming back to 6-pack.
The question is do you know a place where we can rent EFIS equipped plane for a decent price. I know that it will dramatically increase the budget compared to a classic 6 pack one but I would like to try first to see if something nice can be found.
The maximum budget is 130 to 140 USD/hour wet for a 100hrs pack do you think it's manageable?
No expectation for the place, the weather has just to be OK in March to do 100hrs in a month.
Thank you in advance for your help.
I'm currently looking for a place to do 100hrs time building in the USA between March and April 2018. I'm already aware of the paperwork so I "only" need to find a place to rent an aircraft now.
Ideally, I would like to find a place where we can rent the plane and travel with (why not using the 100hrs to visit a bit!)
However, I've done all my PPL on EFIS equipped planes and I'm not very confident in coming back to 6-pack.
The question is do you know a place where we can rent EFIS equipped plane for a decent price. I know that it will dramatically increase the budget compared to a classic 6 pack one but I would like to try first to see if something nice can be found.
The maximum budget is 130 to 140 USD/hour wet for a 100hrs pack do you think it's manageable?
No expectation for the place, the weather has just to be OK in March to do 100hrs in a month.
Thank you in advance for your help.
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If you're only planning to fly VFR, that would be a great way to get used to 6-pack equipment.
You might be able to find a 172SP G1000 for that price but just barely - I don't have any places to recommend for such though.
You might be able to find a 172SP G1000 for that price but just barely - I don't have any places to recommend for such though.
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Thank you for your reply. Indeed you're right for only VFR navigation 6-pack may be enough and for wind corrections there is still GPS true track information.
I'll save some money and use it to visit!
I'll save some money and use it to visit!
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Check out https://www.westairaviation.com . Clean a/c, no EFIS, but really nice people. Ask Vin for a discount for block times and they are flexible about taking the a/c overnight. Nevada almost always has perfect flying weather, and you won't be bored at night in Vegas. Spectacular desert enviroment, lots of high-n-hot calculations. Just don't get N1079M since it is a real dog.
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horus23
I've got the same issue now. So now I am curious is it possible to change chosen office to another one to do it for free.
The second challenge for me now is to choose flight school for time-building. I would really appreciate any advice. If anybody going to do time-building in December please let me know, maybe I'll join.
I've got the same issue now. So now I am curious is it possible to change chosen office to another one to do it for free.
The second challenge for me now is to choose flight school for time-building. I would really appreciate any advice. If anybody going to do time-building in December please let me know, maybe I'll join.
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Night Rating and Hour Building in the US
Hi Everyone,
I’m going to Florida to do some hour building in February and I already have got my FAA verification letter.
BUT I will be getting my night rating in a few days here in he UK.
In order to fly at night in the US, would just my license with NR endoremsnet be enough or do I need a new verification letter that mentions I now have NR?
Thanks
I’m going to Florida to do some hour building in February and I already have got my FAA verification letter.
BUT I will be getting my night rating in a few days here in he UK.
In order to fly at night in the US, would just my license with NR endoremsnet be enough or do I need a new verification letter that mentions I now have NR?
Thanks
Can can do whatever your FAA 61.75 certificate says. If it says day VFR only or night flight prohibited, you're limited. If it doesn't, you're not. (FAA certificates don't have a night rating as it is included.) If you show logbook evidence of bit flight meeting FAA requirements dual/solo the a FSDO *might* remove a restriction. How many hours are you doing?
Ok. I am going to give you the advice I wish I'd had when I was in your position. I just piled in and went flying for 100 hours like you're planning to. It was easy, a lot of fun and in hindsight and long term that was a massively expensive decision.
You are about to pay a lot of money to fly 115 hours, so get as much out of it as you can. Think about what you are going to need later on in your career.
Specific advice:
1 Forget about doing the night rating.
2 Spend that cash on a standalone FAA PPL
3 Spend 40 hours getting an FAA IR
Why? You're not really going to rent a plane in the UK at night, so short term you don't need a night rating. Be honest, the only reason you're getting it is because you need it for a CPL. If you have an FAA PPL it automatically comes with night privileges, and as long as you have 5 hours night you will still qualify for an EASA CPL. The REAL reason for getting an FAA PPL is that you can add an FAA IR to it. Trust me, you really DO want to do that - because it will cost next to nothing (just the extra for an Instructor) - but you'll save at least £10,000 back home. An EASA CPL IR course takes 70 hours. With an FAA IR you only need 30 hours.
General advice: make every hour count. Fly at night, under the hood, cross country, PIC. Tick all the boxes.
My biggest regret was not doing my FAA IR. My second biggest regret was not getting more multi time (I'm thinking of becoming an MEP instructor but I need to pay for MEP time, jet time doesn't count! ) Of course you don't have that problem as I just gave you an extra £10k...
You are about to pay a lot of money to fly 115 hours, so get as much out of it as you can. Think about what you are going to need later on in your career.
Specific advice:
1 Forget about doing the night rating.
2 Spend that cash on a standalone FAA PPL
3 Spend 40 hours getting an FAA IR
Why? You're not really going to rent a plane in the UK at night, so short term you don't need a night rating. Be honest, the only reason you're getting it is because you need it for a CPL. If you have an FAA PPL it automatically comes with night privileges, and as long as you have 5 hours night you will still qualify for an EASA CPL. The REAL reason for getting an FAA PPL is that you can add an FAA IR to it. Trust me, you really DO want to do that - because it will cost next to nothing (just the extra for an Instructor) - but you'll save at least £10,000 back home. An EASA CPL IR course takes 70 hours. With an FAA IR you only need 30 hours.
General advice: make every hour count. Fly at night, under the hood, cross country, PIC. Tick all the boxes.
My biggest regret was not doing my FAA IR. My second biggest regret was not getting more multi time (I'm thinking of becoming an MEP instructor but I need to pay for MEP time, jet time doesn't count! ) Of course you don't have that problem as I just gave you an extra £10k...
