Do modular students get airline jobs?
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Do modular students get airline jobs?
Hello all,
I've been researching the advantages and disadvantages of integrated and modular training for some time, but there's one question I've been unable to get a straight answer to:
Do modular students get airline jobs?
I imagine it is more difficult for a modular student to get an airline job as their first job, primarily because they may not have access to the industry contacts that integrated cadets do.
However, how many modular students do actually get airline jobs straight away? And also, what are the general job opportunities available for modular students these days (airline or otherwise)?
So, there it is. Thanks in advance, I look forward to hearing everyone's responses.
I've been researching the advantages and disadvantages of integrated and modular training for some time, but there's one question I've been unable to get a straight answer to:
Do modular students get airline jobs?
I imagine it is more difficult for a modular student to get an airline job as their first job, primarily because they may not have access to the industry contacts that integrated cadets do.
However, how many modular students do actually get airline jobs straight away? And also, what are the general job opportunities available for modular students these days (airline or otherwise)?
So, there it is. Thanks in advance, I look forward to hearing everyone's responses.
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I gave an answer to a very similar question a few days ago, so forgive me for repeating most of it.
What is the best way to become an airline pilot and what is the best way for you to become an airline pilot.
The answers are very different as well. It really depends on what you can afford, as well as your ability, your timescale, and a great deal of luck.
People often muddy up the questions in order to arrive at the answer they want to hear. How do I obtain a CPL/IR (fATPL,) is a very different question from how do I obtain a job as a commercial airline pilot. Although you cannot be an airline pilot without the basic licence, the licence in itself, is not enough to be a commercial airline pilot.
Airlines generally seek experienced pilots to fulfill the vacancies that arise. That experience varies from airline to airline, but broadly reflects the market expectation particularly as regards those fundamentals of all markets, supply & demand! For many years (decades) demand has been very patchy and supply has been very plentiful. For most airlines "experience" is broadly defined as a basic of 2000-3500 hours and at least 500 hours of that on turbine (jet/turboprop) aircraft. For many pilots that experience has been acquired by "stepping stone" jobs. By that I mean pilots who have worked their way up through an industry by way of entry level jobs in such things as instructing, air taxi, and other aerial work opportunities. This may lead on into opportunities arising in smaller third and second tier airlines, or corporate and other commercial opportunities. Once the relevant experience has been aquired opportunities can be competed for with what might be termed first tier airlines, or those airlines regarded as career companies.
Many of the Captains flying for airlines today followed this route. Many others came from military aviation careers and then switched to a civilian airline career with broadly the same experience levels.
A few airlines also adopted an ab-initio career structure, that involved full time courses of approved commercial training leading to placements within their companies and then careers within those airlines. Some airlines recruited candidates for the initial training courses, and other airlines recruited the best graduates from these commercial schools. Traditionally it was a very small sector of the overall market, and such programmes were fiercely competitive and low in volume.
Over the last 15 years or so there has been an evolution in the the way the market is structured with regard to commercial airline recruitment. This evolution has been brought about by a combination of regulatory changes, economic demographics, and fundamental changes to the main business models within the industry. The results have meant longer potential careers for pilots resulting in more experience staying within the general market for a longer period of time. There have been enormous changes to terms & conditions borne out of the supply/demand curves, and the global economy as a whole. More importantly (as it affects this audience,) there have been major changes to the licencing structure and the way in which airlines recruit entry level career pilots.
To an extent the "stepping stone" career is still an option, however more and more airlines see economic and quality advantages in expanding the ab-initio cadet programmes that once were only a small part of the industry. Taking a good candidate from scratch and training them through a full time course of approved training and then into the airlines own apprenticeship programme has grown in popularity and proved to be successful for so many of the airlines that have utilised it.
This growth has, as a consequence, placed a significant squeeze on the demand for "experienced" entry level pilots for many of these same companies. They prefer (where possible) that the "experience" they demand has been something they have had total involvement with, utilizing pilots who by that time are a known product. Now, some people will argue and protest, but that is where the growth is, and that (like it or not) is the reality. By all means disbelieve what I am saying, but then look at airlines like B.A, Thompson, Thomas Cook, Monarch, Flybe, easyjet, etc. Find out where these companies are sourcing their low hour pilots from. Then try the same exercise without using the term "cadet."
The answer is really quite simple, although the truth may be unpalatable. If you want to be an airline pilot then your best chance of achieving that goal is through an airline cadet programme. That may be through a direct airline recruitment programme, or through a recognised airline/school tied programme. There is a lot of competition for these programmes. They do carry enormous financial risk, and there are no guarantees. They are also expensive.
The truth (as much as many protest otherwise) is that the "expense" ultimately becomes the deciding factor. If this methodology is out of the question, or indeed if any other factor makes it a non-starter, then your choices are more limited.
You can certainly obtain a pilots licence for less cost than is ever likely to be involved in an airline cadet programme, but that will not normally enable you to get on an airlines low hour cadet programme. Of course that doesn't rule out the "stepping stone" career, but the time, difficulty, attrition rate, and frustration of that approach shouldn't be underestimated either.
The answers are very different as well. It really depends on what you can afford, as well as your ability, your timescale, and a great deal of luck.
People often muddy up the questions in order to arrive at the answer they want to hear. How do I obtain a CPL/IR (fATPL,) is a very different question from how do I obtain a job as a commercial airline pilot. Although you cannot be an airline pilot without the basic licence, the licence in itself, is not enough to be a commercial airline pilot.
Airlines generally seek experienced pilots to fulfill the vacancies that arise. That experience varies from airline to airline, but broadly reflects the market expectation particularly as regards those fundamentals of all markets, supply & demand! For many years (decades) demand has been very patchy and supply has been very plentiful. For most airlines "experience" is broadly defined as a basic of 2000-3500 hours and at least 500 hours of that on turbine (jet/turboprop) aircraft. For many pilots that experience has been acquired by "stepping stone" jobs. By that I mean pilots who have worked their way up through an industry by way of entry level jobs in such things as instructing, air taxi, and other aerial work opportunities. This may lead on into opportunities arising in smaller third and second tier airlines, or corporate and other commercial opportunities. Once the relevant experience has been aquired opportunities can be competed for with what might be termed first tier airlines, or those airlines regarded as career companies.
Many of the Captains flying for airlines today followed this route. Many others came from military aviation careers and then switched to a civilian airline career with broadly the same experience levels.
A few airlines also adopted an ab-initio career structure, that involved full time courses of approved commercial training leading to placements within their companies and then careers within those airlines. Some airlines recruited candidates for the initial training courses, and other airlines recruited the best graduates from these commercial schools. Traditionally it was a very small sector of the overall market, and such programmes were fiercely competitive and low in volume.
Over the last 15 years or so there has been an evolution in the the way the market is structured with regard to commercial airline recruitment. This evolution has been brought about by a combination of regulatory changes, economic demographics, and fundamental changes to the main business models within the industry. The results have meant longer potential careers for pilots resulting in more experience staying within the general market for a longer period of time. There have been enormous changes to terms & conditions borne out of the supply/demand curves, and the global economy as a whole. More importantly (as it affects this audience,) there have been major changes to the licencing structure and the way in which airlines recruit entry level career pilots.
To an extent the "stepping stone" career is still an option, however more and more airlines see economic and quality advantages in expanding the ab-initio cadet programmes that once were only a small part of the industry. Taking a good candidate from scratch and training them through a full time course of approved training and then into the airlines own apprenticeship programme has grown in popularity and proved to be successful for so many of the airlines that have utilised it.
This growth has, as a consequence, placed a significant squeeze on the demand for "experienced" entry level pilots for many of these same companies. They prefer (where possible) that the "experience" they demand has been something they have had total involvement with, utilizing pilots who by that time are a known product. Now, some people will argue and protest, but that is where the growth is, and that (like it or not) is the reality. By all means disbelieve what I am saying, but then look at airlines like B.A, Thompson, Thomas Cook, Monarch, Flybe, easyjet, etc. Find out where these companies are sourcing their low hour pilots from. Then try the same exercise without using the term "cadet."
The answer is really quite simple, although the truth may be unpalatable. If you want to be an airline pilot then your best chance of achieving that goal is through an airline cadet programme. That may be through a direct airline recruitment programme, or through a recognised airline/school tied programme. There is a lot of competition for these programmes. They do carry enormous financial risk, and there are no guarantees. They are also expensive.
The truth (as much as many protest otherwise) is that the "expense" ultimately becomes the deciding factor. If this methodology is out of the question, or indeed if any other factor makes it a non-starter, then your choices are more limited.
You can certainly obtain a pilots licence for less cost than is ever likely to be involved in an airline cadet programme, but that will not normally enable you to get on an airlines low hour cadet programme. Of course that doesn't rule out the "stepping stone" career, but the time, difficulty, attrition rate, and frustration of that approach shouldn't be underestimated either.
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You have to ask yourself, how quickly do you want to fly a jet? If you are 20, you will retire at 60-65. Imagine how tiresome you would get flying a jet for 45 years. So whilst you're young, there is nothing wrong in exploring other fields like being a bush pilot or glider towing. These jobs will make you better airline pilots anyway.
If you are 35 with a family close, I could see why you want to get on a jet for money. But some integrated schools place students with airlines earning in the region on £14k a year. And yes, that's as a first officer on a jet.
Personally, I don't see why so many people rush to fly for an airline, but I digress.
Yes.
Correct. CTC are good at placing their cadets. You can go modular and do an AQC with CTC and they put you into a hold pool. I don't know how long it takes to get a job from that hold pool, but I do know modular students that have done that and they got them a job on a jet.
I personally know more students that have got an airline job than those who haven't.
-Instructing
-Corporate flying
-Aerial work
-Bush flying
-Safety pilot
-Various operators (for example there are companies that run corporate jets or turboprops but I wouldn't class these as airlines as most don't even have websites)
And for the record, I know integrated students who graduated a few years ago and are still waiting for a job.
It's also important to realise, that whilst generally speaking integrated students do end up with airlines, there is no guarantee how long it'll take for you to be called up for the job. My friend was a CTC cadet, took him 2 years to get out the hold pool before ending up on easyJet Flexicrew. In the meantime my modular friend got a job within 4 months flying for a bigger airline for better money and had no contacts that got him that job.
It's swings and roundabouts really. You have to really look into integrated and modular and decide what is best for you. Don't push modular aside thinking it's not as good and don't push integrated aside thinking it's double the price for the same license. Really really look into all of it. As the above poster said, we can't tell you what's best for you. All we can do is give you our opinions.
There are other integrated schools and airlines than those I mentioned, obviously.
If you are 35 with a family close, I could see why you want to get on a jet for money. But some integrated schools place students with airlines earning in the region on £14k a year. And yes, that's as a first officer on a jet.
Personally, I don't see why so many people rush to fly for an airline, but I digress.
Do modular students get airline jobs?
I imagine it is more difficult for a modular student to get an airline job as their first job
how many modular students do actually get airline jobs straight away? And also, what are the general job opportunities available for modular students these days (airline or otherwise)?
-Instructing
-Corporate flying
-Aerial work
-Bush flying
-Safety pilot
-Various operators (for example there are companies that run corporate jets or turboprops but I wouldn't class these as airlines as most don't even have websites)
And for the record, I know integrated students who graduated a few years ago and are still waiting for a job.
It's also important to realise, that whilst generally speaking integrated students do end up with airlines, there is no guarantee how long it'll take for you to be called up for the job. My friend was a CTC cadet, took him 2 years to get out the hold pool before ending up on easyJet Flexicrew. In the meantime my modular friend got a job within 4 months flying for a bigger airline for better money and had no contacts that got him that job.
It's swings and roundabouts really. You have to really look into integrated and modular and decide what is best for you. Don't push modular aside thinking it's not as good and don't push integrated aside thinking it's double the price for the same license. Really really look into all of it. As the above poster said, we can't tell you what's best for you. All we can do is give you our opinions.
There are other integrated schools and airlines than those I mentioned, obviously.
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Do modular students get airline jobs?
I've held an instructor ticket for 20 years and in all that time I've only known 2 fellow instructors who didn't get an airline jobs.
One decided to remain an instructor the other had medical problems.
I've held an instructor ticket for 20 years and in all that time I've only known 2 fellow instructors who didn't get an airline jobs.
One decided to remain an instructor the other had medical problems.
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I've held an instructor ticket for 20 years and in all that time I've only known 2 fellow instructors who didn't get an airline jobs.
you go nowhere with a fi ticket nowadays!
it s all pay for line training, 300h 500h, what future is that?
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will someone PLEASE tell this pilot from America what the HECK is a MODULAR STUDENT? You guys throw slang around and I would like to understand it.
also, please tell me what a FROZEN ATP is?
I was a Frozen ATP when I was doing my walkaround on my 737 in Buffalo , New York , USA in the winter time...but what do YOU guys mean?
also, please tell me what a FROZEN ATP is?
I was a Frozen ATP when I was doing my walkaround on my 737 in Buffalo , New York , USA in the winter time...but what do YOU guys mean?
PPRuNe Handmaiden
7stroke,
Modular = the way most folks normally learn to fly in the States. "Part time" is another term. An integrated course used to mean a lot more under the old "regime" but now it just means full time at the one school. You pay well over the odds.
Frozen ATPL. Short hand for CPL+IR+ATPL subjects. Many schools that flog "integrated" courses "pretend" that it's something better than it really is.
Sadly, they can convince folks to spend the money.
I've been frozen too, in Moscow and in Samedan (UUWW, LSZS). The ATPL was fine.
Modular = the way most folks normally learn to fly in the States. "Part time" is another term. An integrated course used to mean a lot more under the old "regime" but now it just means full time at the one school. You pay well over the odds.
Frozen ATPL. Short hand for CPL+IR+ATPL subjects. Many schools that flog "integrated" courses "pretend" that it's something better than it really is.
Sadly, they can convince folks to spend the money.
I've been frozen too, in Moscow and in Samedan (UUWW, LSZS). The ATPL was fine.
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"I've held an instructor ticket for 20 years and in all that time I've only known 2 fellow instructors who didn't get an airline jobs"
"that was in the past, now the answer is NO"
A320 Renewal
You are simply factually wrong here.
I work at a School that offers modular CPL and IR training it also offers FI courses. Over the last say 2 years every single person coming through the doors has got work.
A surprising number have gone straight into airline jobs off the top of my head about a 1/3.
Another 1/3 got airline jobs after a relatively short time instructing at say 500 to 700 hours.
The rest which by and large are the most recently qualified and currently earning cash instructing/aerial photography but I suspect their time will come.
People stating that there is no jobs is simply not true. In fact comparing today with say 1993 its a piece of cake.
Perhaps what I find the most disturbing in all of this is the number of washed up flat broke dreams shattered Integrated graduates who come to us for FI courses in an effort to kick start there flying career - the really have been sold a lemon.
At times I honestly think the only difference between modular and Integrated courses is the marketing departments. The FTO I work for doesn't have one. Where as I guess CTC, Oxford etc spend an absolute fortune on telling the world that their way is the only way.
"that was in the past, now the answer is NO"
A320 Renewal
You are simply factually wrong here.
I work at a School that offers modular CPL and IR training it also offers FI courses. Over the last say 2 years every single person coming through the doors has got work.
A surprising number have gone straight into airline jobs off the top of my head about a 1/3.
Another 1/3 got airline jobs after a relatively short time instructing at say 500 to 700 hours.
The rest which by and large are the most recently qualified and currently earning cash instructing/aerial photography but I suspect their time will come.
People stating that there is no jobs is simply not true. In fact comparing today with say 1993 its a piece of cake.
Perhaps what I find the most disturbing in all of this is the number of washed up flat broke dreams shattered Integrated graduates who come to us for FI courses in an effort to kick start there flying career - the really have been sold a lemon.
At times I honestly think the only difference between modular and Integrated courses is the marketing departments. The FTO I work for doesn't have one. Where as I guess CTC, Oxford etc spend an absolute fortune on telling the world that their way is the only way.
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I have an FI ticket, without about 680 hrs Total am now flying regional TP. didn't pay for any line training but did pay for TR - cheaply tho.
I also know about 15 instructors that have landed airline jobs in the last 2 years.
There are jobs, but you need to work really hard at getting one. If you're modular and don't do an FI course you're limited to RYR or Lion Air etc.
I also know about 15 instructors that have landed airline jobs in the last 2 years.
There are jobs, but you need to work really hard at getting one. If you're modular and don't do an FI course you're limited to RYR or Lion Air etc.
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Hi,
from own experience on the fATPL end up to being in charge to hire pilots I can throw in:
It depends on what job you aim at.
Main carriers with cadet schemes - the answer is NO (unless it will pick up to a point where they are simply desperate to find cadets) Some are very strict and hire only from their own schools other are more liberal.
Jobs in GA / cargo / turboprop / or far away outfits are most probably the starting point for a fATPL pilot. Then the above comments kick in - once you have experience you may get other jobs up the ladder.
Still - outfits like LH / AF / KLM / LX would have to be very, very desperate to hire modular fATPL's.
Go looking on the websites of the outfits that interest you as an employer and have a look at their terms. Most are very clear what they are looking for.
from own experience on the fATPL end up to being in charge to hire pilots I can throw in:
It depends on what job you aim at.
Main carriers with cadet schemes - the answer is NO (unless it will pick up to a point where they are simply desperate to find cadets) Some are very strict and hire only from their own schools other are more liberal.
Jobs in GA / cargo / turboprop / or far away outfits are most probably the starting point for a fATPL pilot. Then the above comments kick in - once you have experience you may get other jobs up the ladder.
Still - outfits like LH / AF / KLM / LX would have to be very, very desperate to hire modular fATPL's.
Go looking on the websites of the outfits that interest you as an employer and have a look at their terms. Most are very clear what they are looking for.
Still - outfits like LH / AF / KLM / LX would have to be very, very desperate to hire modular fATPL's.
The logic of preferring integrated graduates is presumably massive debts forcing new pilots to be trapped by an airline salary long enough to become completely bedded into the system, willingness to completely follow procedure without thinking for themselves too much, and lack of interest in doing anything interesting with an aeroplane beyond lots of really accurate straight and level.
G
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I know of loads of modular who got jobs with Ryanair, so you have the money and chance for TR that's the way to go!
I do agree that there could be more interesting flying to do first, but the ones suggestion FI or Bush flying, are living in a timeloop bubble, and not in touch with TODAYS reality.
I just heard from a friend he spent 10.000 Euros on FI course, and has NO prospect of a job!
I know of great instructors with few THOUSAND hours, not able to renew their IR, because it cost to much money, wishing they could get into an airline, and they have no chance as it is at the moment!
So believing following the "old" route to get where you want, is all well and fine, however if you want to fly for an airline in Europe, the hill is very steep just to get the chance.
It is clear for me now, it is not what you know, how good pilot you are, it is who you know, you might be lucky and get the the odd chance here and there, but besides that, there is not much luck involved.
If I was younger, I would have made sure I was fully prepared to get into Ryanair, as they offer great chance for young pilots with low experience.
Personally I loathe to fly with them as a passenger, but if I need to go somewhere that they fly, and the price is right I will use them. I believe many people think like this, and this will keep companies like Ryanair going for many years!
If you don't get in with them, than there are not many chances left for modular low hour pilots.
CTC, CAE/Oxford are trying to take a stranglehold on this very lucrative business with pilot placement! Making sure that if you want to have more than a fair chance of getting a job, you need to pay at least double the modular rate! Fair ? Or another class divide?
I do agree that there could be more interesting flying to do first, but the ones suggestion FI or Bush flying, are living in a timeloop bubble, and not in touch with TODAYS reality.
I just heard from a friend he spent 10.000 Euros on FI course, and has NO prospect of a job!
I know of great instructors with few THOUSAND hours, not able to renew their IR, because it cost to much money, wishing they could get into an airline, and they have no chance as it is at the moment!
So believing following the "old" route to get where you want, is all well and fine, however if you want to fly for an airline in Europe, the hill is very steep just to get the chance.
It is clear for me now, it is not what you know, how good pilot you are, it is who you know, you might be lucky and get the the odd chance here and there, but besides that, there is not much luck involved.
If I was younger, I would have made sure I was fully prepared to get into Ryanair, as they offer great chance for young pilots with low experience.
Personally I loathe to fly with them as a passenger, but if I need to go somewhere that they fly, and the price is right I will use them. I believe many people think like this, and this will keep companies like Ryanair going for many years!
If you don't get in with them, than there are not many chances left for modular low hour pilots.
CTC, CAE/Oxford are trying to take a stranglehold on this very lucrative business with pilot placement! Making sure that if you want to have more than a fair chance of getting a job, you need to pay at least double the modular rate! Fair ? Or another class divide?
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My friend was a CTC cadet, took him 2 years to get out the hold pool before ending up on easyJet Flexicrew. In the meantime my modular friend got a job within 4 months flying for a bigger airline for better money and had no contacts that got him that job.
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Genghis, it comes down to money as it always has.
CTC do their own quite strict selection, this means that the airlines don't have to go through a long process of eliminating the many and varied loonies that managed to get fATPLs and look on paper like all the other perfectly employable people.
OAA/CAE on the other hand offer large discounts on Sim time and Type Ratings so that it becomes profitable to recruit from their own stock. Recruitment on any scale is a long and expensive process and it would seem that senior management don't see a massive change in the financials if they aren't too picky about the kind of people they recruit so long as they can do the job.
I find ex instructors much more pleasant to sit next to but it still doesn't guarantee quality. There is no replacement for setting a recruitment policy on the basis of the right outlook, attitude and work ethic. Flying skills you can train but it's almost impossible to train the arsehole out of someone
.
CTC do their own quite strict selection, this means that the airlines don't have to go through a long process of eliminating the many and varied loonies that managed to get fATPLs and look on paper like all the other perfectly employable people.
OAA/CAE on the other hand offer large discounts on Sim time and Type Ratings so that it becomes profitable to recruit from their own stock. Recruitment on any scale is a long and expensive process and it would seem that senior management don't see a massive change in the financials if they aren't too picky about the kind of people they recruit so long as they can do the job.
I find ex instructors much more pleasant to sit next to but it still doesn't guarantee quality. There is no replacement for setting a recruitment policy on the basis of the right outlook, attitude and work ethic. Flying skills you can train but it's almost impossible to train the arsehole out of someone
.
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I find the CTC selection process amusing and fairly arrogant!
End of the day, selection by CTC is a lottery, a £10 computer game and a maths test for kindergarten children!
Sorry I can not agree, they need to sell their image as they will get you the dream, the job you want, the ticket is £100.000, it is not a ticket, it is still a lottery!
Last time I heard from them, they said all their cadets had got placement, is this true?
Long lengthy selection process for the airlines, up my a.... , what utter BS and rubbish.
Having ran my own business over 20 years, I know how "business" works, and if somebody is trying to tell me that the airlines or flight schools are any different, better than the rest of private business, well dream on!
One back scratches the other, here is how I assume it works! CTC makes contacts trough their network. They build up networks with companies like EZY, Cathay, FlyBe Dragon, Flydubai, Qatar, Jet2, Jetstar etc. as they claim, I saw a list of over 15 airlines they claim to work with!
A few meetings in the backroom, some brown envelopes in the backroom to assure and convince the "right" people in the company that selection is preferred trough their establishment!
Now I use CTC as an example, as they are probably one of the main culprits in the UK, without them you can't get a job with FlyBe or EZY if you have low hours, so they are actually using their "power" to block entries of other capable pilots who could have a fair chance, if only given a chance!
They have "qualified" office women doing the assessment, there is no technical assessment or interview, there is no exposure to the real flight environment, and that's what they base their selection process on!
I can put this computer game to a 10 year old game player, and he will breeze trough this within the 3rd times with top scores.
It is very clear what is going on, example again CTC have simulators and training equipment that needs to be in use, charging example ATP over £8000 for a fixed base MCC / JOC with no promise of ANYTHING is taking the piss, seriously! It is a complete rip off, but here goes their story, WE GIVE YOU HOPE and A CHANCE, because otherwise you have NO chance with the likes of EZY or FlyBe, unless you have experience, if you had experience you would not have gone to CTC!
That companies like i mention above, associate themselves with CTC, gives CTC customers willing to pay up to £100.000 for training with them, of course ending with Flex contract is their final reward, but it gives them a step inside!
So no illusions about money, it is all about money, CTC from their overpriced flight training surely are being both awarded and awarding the right people at the right companies, that's how 99% of business works! Why else would Ezy or any other company, keep an exclusive agreement with CTC?
This is the sad truth of reality, so when people criticise Ryanair, there are much larger culprits around, and these companies like CTC are trying to make it their monopoly with regarding recruitment to as many companies as they are able to "convince" - the only thing that can convince "people today" is money!
It is not about CTC's amazing selection procedure etc. It is looking more and more likely that companies are getting into such a position now! That's why for many modular s the P2F is the only alternative, end of the day it will still save you money compared to the CTC model of training and it will give you a massive advantage when you get your 500 hours or more!
CTC talked about "exciting" prospects in Middle East and Asia, well I worked a lot with business in these countries, and let me tell you something, nothing exciting happens there, unless you give somebody some extra butter on their bread!
They give the butter, and future pilot students will be stuck between a rot or a fortune of debts!
Nice Chief Training Captains, got the hands in the pockets, and the cadets screaming to give more! Sweet........
End of the day, selection by CTC is a lottery, a £10 computer game and a maths test for kindergarten children!
Sorry I can not agree, they need to sell their image as they will get you the dream, the job you want, the ticket is £100.000, it is not a ticket, it is still a lottery!
Last time I heard from them, they said all their cadets had got placement, is this true?
Long lengthy selection process for the airlines, up my a.... , what utter BS and rubbish.
Having ran my own business over 20 years, I know how "business" works, and if somebody is trying to tell me that the airlines or flight schools are any different, better than the rest of private business, well dream on!
One back scratches the other, here is how I assume it works! CTC makes contacts trough their network. They build up networks with companies like EZY, Cathay, FlyBe Dragon, Flydubai, Qatar, Jet2, Jetstar etc. as they claim, I saw a list of over 15 airlines they claim to work with!
A few meetings in the backroom, some brown envelopes in the backroom to assure and convince the "right" people in the company that selection is preferred trough their establishment!
Now I use CTC as an example, as they are probably one of the main culprits in the UK, without them you can't get a job with FlyBe or EZY if you have low hours, so they are actually using their "power" to block entries of other capable pilots who could have a fair chance, if only given a chance!
They have "qualified" office women doing the assessment, there is no technical assessment or interview, there is no exposure to the real flight environment, and that's what they base their selection process on!
I can put this computer game to a 10 year old game player, and he will breeze trough this within the 3rd times with top scores.
It is very clear what is going on, example again CTC have simulators and training equipment that needs to be in use, charging example ATP over £8000 for a fixed base MCC / JOC with no promise of ANYTHING is taking the piss, seriously! It is a complete rip off, but here goes their story, WE GIVE YOU HOPE and A CHANCE, because otherwise you have NO chance with the likes of EZY or FlyBe, unless you have experience, if you had experience you would not have gone to CTC!
That companies like i mention above, associate themselves with CTC, gives CTC customers willing to pay up to £100.000 for training with them, of course ending with Flex contract is their final reward, but it gives them a step inside!
So no illusions about money, it is all about money, CTC from their overpriced flight training surely are being both awarded and awarding the right people at the right companies, that's how 99% of business works! Why else would Ezy or any other company, keep an exclusive agreement with CTC?
This is the sad truth of reality, so when people criticise Ryanair, there are much larger culprits around, and these companies like CTC are trying to make it their monopoly with regarding recruitment to as many companies as they are able to "convince" - the only thing that can convince "people today" is money!
It is not about CTC's amazing selection procedure etc. It is looking more and more likely that companies are getting into such a position now! That's why for many modular s the P2F is the only alternative, end of the day it will still save you money compared to the CTC model of training and it will give you a massive advantage when you get your 500 hours or more!
CTC talked about "exciting" prospects in Middle East and Asia, well I worked a lot with business in these countries, and let me tell you something, nothing exciting happens there, unless you give somebody some extra butter on their bread!
They give the butter, and future pilot students will be stuck between a rot or a fortune of debts!
Nice Chief Training Captains, got the hands in the pockets, and the cadets screaming to give more! Sweet........
Last edited by truckflyer; 4th Jun 2012 at 10:57.
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You can do it with Group discussions and team things like spagetti bridges and that sort of stuff. Interaction in coffee breaks also plays a part.
Also interaction with admin staff prior to arrival.
Taking everyone for a pint has become a bit out of vogue these days.
But I don't have a clue how CTC do it. Each school seems to have there own theorys about what the pilot type should be.
Also interaction with admin staff prior to arrival.
Taking everyone for a pint has become a bit out of vogue these days.
But I don't have a clue how CTC do it. Each school seems to have there own theorys about what the pilot type should be.
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I can't entirely understand why most airlines would hire either when there are job-hunting instructors with 1000+ hours of command experience, and the vastly enhanced understanding of flying that comes from having spent a lot of time teaching it.
The logic of preferring integrated graduates is presumably massive debts forcing new pilots to be trapped by an airline salary long enough to become completely bedded into the system, willingness to completely follow procedure without thinking for themselves too much, and lack of interest in doing anything interesting with an aeroplane beyond lots of really accurate straight and level
The logic of preferring integrated graduates is presumably massive debts forcing new pilots to be trapped by an airline salary long enough to become completely bedded into the system, willingness to completely follow procedure without thinking for themselves too much, and lack of interest in doing anything interesting with an aeroplane beyond lots of really accurate straight and level
There is a myth that runs through these forums that seems to propogate the idea that it is a perfectly natural progression for a new CPL holder with 250 odd hours to transition to flying airliners.
The fact is, that it is something of a cliff face for most low hour pilots transitioning to this type of flying with such low experience levels.
The cadet programmes that do provide these low hour opportunities require that candidates have a full time solid background of training with a provider that uses a vertical integration method of teaching to become an airline pilot. The reason for that is simple, in that the successful candidates will become airline pilots with less than 200 hours flying experience.
Airline training slots and simulator time is expensive. Cadets are extremely intensive on both counts, and there are additional restrictions on their usability during this period and in the early parts of their career. It is very important that the cadets selected meet the standard required. That standard is more than simply having a licence and an instrument rating.
The idea that 250 hours of "flying in all kinds of weather" or "1000 hours+ of instructing" is an acceptable substitute for such a recognised course of training, isn't going to carry much weight with the airlines that have cadet programmes.
Outside of these cadet schemes, the oportunity still exists to progress via the traditional "stepping stone" routes of working your way up through aerial work jobs and into entry level transport jobs as and when those vacancies arise.
The evolution within the industry has seen an expansion in cadet recruitment which coupled with the general downturn in the global economy has seen the former take a much more significant share of the market. Cadet programmes are nothing new. However over the last 15 years or so, they have become a significant part of the airline recruitment market at entry level. Like it or not, that significance is likely to grow as the economy improves.