Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies)A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.
This is all Public Knowledge, I am not outing anyone or anything. There is nothing here that is not accessible by anyone at anytime. Perhaps the money is here somewhere?
Shemburn Ltd (Michael Edgeworth, Diarmud Maher, Anthony Howard Kember, George Edgeworth}
Pilot Training College of IRELAND Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, George Michael Edgeworth, Judith Mary Kember, Anthony Howard Kember, Ann Edgeworth, Michael Flynn, John Donlan, Porema ltd)
Pilot Training College CAMBRIDGE Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth)
A and O Properties Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth, Ruth Edgeworth, Harry Everard)
Aircraft Technical Support Ireland Limited (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth, Laura Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, Andrew Fleming, Paula Horan, Gill Hanlon,)
Pilot Training Systems Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Mike Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, Declan Walsh, Private research ltd,)
RTF systems Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Ciaran Doyle, Anthony Howard Kember, Declan Walsh)
Skytrace Limted (Michael Edgeworth, George Edgeworth, George M. Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, Victor Ostapenko)
Alphatel Ltd (Michael James Edgeworth, Declan Walsh, Porema Limited, Marc O’Connor, Sean Kavanah)
ATS Telecommunications Ltd (M.J. Edgeworth)
Wolcar Ltd (George Michael Edgeworth, Michael Roche, Francisco Dominguez, Brendan Glynn, Mary Glynn)
Plus in Florida
Pilot Training College llc PTC RE llc (with Paul Glover) Allgifts llc N4923T llc (with Lorraine Skinner)
This argument about the wisdom of up-front payment is only forming a circular firing squad.
This isn’t a case of petty pilferage or minor white collar fiddling. This is a CRIME OF ASTRONOMICAL PROPORTIONS with effects and ramifications for PTC students and their families that will stretch on for decades. They have fallen victim to probably the most morally bankrupt greed-ridden predatory scumbag ever to have leeched on the dreams and ambitions of young people starting their working lives.
I’m no lawyer, but I imagine that rather than sniping at each other from separate trenches it would be wiser to consolidate the forces of all aggrieved parties.
The first order of business would be to locate the legendry ‘Captain’ asap - either fiscally or physically. Every hour this ratbag is allowed to hide under a brick allows him to consolidate the firewall between his stolen cash and any meaningful accountability.
The interest alone accumulating on the ‘principle swindle’ is probably good enough to grease the palms of a sufficient number of mid-level politicos to close off significant avenues of investigation. Time is of the essence – this should be a criminal pursuit.
Tinstaafl, yes you're right in what you say - I didn't have pursue this training path. But would you turn down a sponsored place to go it alone? Personally I believe these schemes are the best out there, at present. Not too many jobs about, and now with most LCC's are introducing their own MPL schemes openings for 250 hour guys may well be reducing.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Nobody I know (except one individual) paid completely up front so where are you getting this from?
Well said pilotbear There are one too many 'I know better than you' members knocking around.
Pilotbear, your analogy doesn't really work. A house has value hence the bank's willingness to pay up front on your behalf. Half an ATPL course has no value.
Which bit are some of you guys not getting? If someone wants significant cash up front (either the whole lot or by installment) they have a cash flow problem. It doesn't take much for that pack of cards to collapse. The principle is not unique to PTC or the aviation industry, it applies across the board.
It should be made a requirement for any FTO or ATO as they will now be called under EASA, to have an escrow payment system in place before they get approval.
Money is held by a third party until the event that requires to be paid for is complete. There should be a small amount advanced to the ATO to allow for prepaying skills tests and equipment etc.
Pilot training should also be about, now don't take me up wrong, but training pilots. Its not that difficult once you have an experienced training department, who have both experience in flight instruction and commercial transport. Its not a sales or IT company that does some flight training on the side.
Universities and colleges have been educating for years, if the system ain't broke...
Another invalid post with no meaning or relevance a320renewal. Your description is far from reality. I've seen you polluting threads before with your limited knowledge and terrible grammer. A quick look a your post statistics made me laugh. Sometimes its funny to see 'old hands' completely shoot down unnecessary posts/users.
For those who have kids and have either sent them to private education establishments or indeed university, these education facilities impose yearly fees which parents are required to pay in full at the beginning of the term year!
For those of you who say don't pay up front (and I totaly agree I don't think anyone should hand over 80K for a 15 month course at the beginning of that course), do you think the university or private school is going to allow your kid to start their education without the funds in place?
As I believe it has been mentioned above, most of those PTC students did not pay the whole lot in one instalment and I'm pretty sure it would have been in 4 instalments much like OAA, CTC and FTE do, are you now acussing these 4 well known and established pilot training institutions to be 'suspect' and in the same league as PTC?? I don't think so.
That is how companies work these days and yes if you don't like it take your business elsewhere, however as one poster has already stated, if he is offered a part sponsership with Flybe by attending PTC and PTC ask him for 4 instalments or even two instalments over the course of the 15 months, I think most of us would do so.
BA cadet recruits are currently training with OAA, CTC & FTE, I bet they paid whatever the training provider asked them to and if that was an all up payment they probably did so, would those of you who say don't pay in adavnce advise those indivduals to not do so?
The downfall of PTC is probably more to do with the company trying to grow too fast (you could use the word greed!) and stretching itself to the point of collapse. Just look at the number of companies set up and who knows what other avenues the company has expanded towards.
Purchasing a 737 sim and housing it in Cambridge (if they did in fact purcahse it) is not cheap and it's these sorts of things where some companies use cash meant for other avenues (pilot training) to fulfil other aquisitions (737 sim), now I'm not saying that is the case because I don't know but PTC have always tried to play with the 'big boys'; they never were in that group nor ever will!
For all those students affected, I'm sure you're already way ahead on this but your best course of action is for all of you to collectively pursue the company(s) or individual(s) through the legal process.
It's ironic really but PTC through examinership are looking to resurface with a new business plan to conduct only the IR training in Waterford! If my recollection of PTC serves me right, that is how they first started! mainly marketing those with FAA CPL/IR to train at Waterford for conversions to JAA. Even if this were a viable option for PTC now, is anyone really going to go and train with them in the future?
It is a sad state of affairs and one I hope that the students concerned are able to get some recourse from and lets not forget the staff at PTC who through no fault of their own, have overnight become unemployed in this current climate.
What those who act the way Mike Edgeworth et al appears to have done is reprehensible. But even without such behaviour, flying schools go tits up. Sometimes it's inept management, sometimes just a poor economy that can't support the business model, and sometimes it's through dishonesty. The point is you have no way of knowing the financial circumstances of a school. Even publicly owned companies' books aren't entirely clear.
That doesn't change the fact that handing over tens of thousands of pounds to any organisation, without any form of funds protection, for what is little more than a nice promise for future value received can't be defended as a particularly sensible way to arrange your flying training.
Pilotbear, you're wrong about your mortgage analogy. You gain the ownership of the property if you complete the contract terms eg the exchange money for the property. If you get the money using a typical loan arrangement then it's the mortgage company that's taking the risk that you're going to pay them back and they - sensibly - don't give you the money without insurance in the form of a mortgage on the property. As long as if you make the loan repayments until the loan is completely paid off then the house is yours.
Would you loan $50,000 or $100,000 to a stranger without security? Because that's pretty much what paying up front is doing.
If you accept a part sponsorship, it's because you think it will fast track you into a nice, shiny jet. If it involves paying large amounts up front then that's a risk you *choose* to take on your route to a jet job, even though there are alternative ways to eventually get there.
Very interesting reading your comments about PTC and wish you all well. I attended a presentation recently and it sounds like the same bunch are at it again. One was a guy who calls himself Capt Mark Robinson and the other with a strange haircut called Neil Danna Davies. It all sounded to good to be true and have since heard through the grapevine that they were all part of the PTC/ Cabair fiasco. Sounds to me like they are a bunch of wannabies who are trying to financially screw young wannabies.
Interesting post.Looking at pilotbears previous post where names are mentioned with relation to this company I don't see either of these two appearing. There could in fact,I'm sure,be a whole lot of names from the world of PTC that could be brought up for examination,including many (ex)staff members that could also be possibly blamed in some small,(or large) way for this companys demise,but again I bet they won't be the same names appearing in the 'boards.ie' post.
Is this a case of going after the monkeys but not the organ-grinders?
Both individuals named in Flying fast post were ex PTC staff, though I believe they left (or were sacked not sure which!) prior to the company demise. Both also now work for Atlantic Flight training Coventry, not sure if they were briefly connected to Cabair though.
The Captain is an ex student of PTC who didn't finsh the course but then went onto to work at PTC.
The Head Of Training resigned around Christmas 2011, possibly as he saw the writing on the wall!
Firstly, Irelander you have got it spot on... Secondly, 'the hairdresser and captain fantastic' sounds like a movie!
Now in answer to the post earlier..
MARK ROBERTSON - failed pilot. He was the worst student i had in 10 years of instructing. The only person who I gave up on with the CPL course. Never passed an instrument rating. Excuse after excuse of non performance master . Came over to Florida once for PTC and spent the whole trip while all his colleagues were working pretending to be sick and going to Hooters.
Dana Davies - (Isn't that a girls name?) Never ever been a pilot of any sort whatsoever, nearest he got to aviation was the passenger compartment of an easy jet 737 to Malaga. I thought he was a hairdresser actually.
Sinead O'Marcaigh - Telecoms saleswoman. Knows nothing about aviation except how to lie to get money out of people. A true Edgeworth disciple except....she and Edgeworth are 'partners' even though he is still married and have been for many years as you all know....or didn't they tell you that?
Anything else you want to know? If you encounter any of these people trying to sell you something run away screaming!
Regarding paying up front, it happened like this; Method 1, The students paid money into a holding account and started training. Then at critical moments in the training when the student couldn't say no..(this was all planned in advance) they would get a phone call or email from Sinead or Siobhan or one of the other sales team depending how short of money the Ponzi scheme was saying training was suspended and threatening and YES I mean threatening, to terminate the 'student' from the program ( in Florida the threat that the student would be sent home with no refund) unless they paid in more money to top up the account. Method 2, PTC would deliberately over-bill the students and ONLY pay the money back if the student noticed. Many tried to alert students on here to method 2 while it was happening but the moderator who was clearly allied with edgeworth ( no, not <..>) cut the posts and sent me rude and threatening emails. Hope he is sleeping soundly now these kids have had their money stolen!
I know for an absolute fact that there are many students that this happened to, I wonder if any of them has the to post to confirm or are you all going to be first officers all your lives...any true Captains out there?
"You’ll need to find €85,000 to enrol and if you haven’t got that sort of cash lying around then you’ll need to take out a loan and most likely use your home (or your parents’ home) as security.
Captain Mark Robertson, who is also part of the flight crew selection team, said it’s a commitment that needs to be considered carefully.
“It’s probably the biggest financial commitment of someone’s life, other than buying a house, so it’s not to be taken lightly and it will take you up to ten years to pay it off.”
"Capt Robertson said once students are there they rarely, if ever, fail to deliver. Over a six-year period there have been just two drop-outs – one was kicked out for drinking on campus and the other got pregnant."
"Capt Robertson said: “We train 400 pilots a year but we are going to have to expand to cope with demand from airlines. As many as 79,000 pilots are going to be required in Europe alone over the next 20 years.
As someone who has clearly enjoyed his own flying career he said: “Where else can you go into your office, put the heater on, fly to 35,000 feet and see sunshine every day.”
Lies, lies, lies. Fake captains, liars, cheats, conmen....where the hell is the regulation in the flight training industry. And shame on the IAA for standing by and letting this happen under their noses.
I sincerely hope some of these conmen see the inside of a prison cell, although i doubt it in a country that hasn't managed to jail a single banker yet.
Mark Robertson IS NOT A CAPTAIN. He is lying, he could not pass his IR!! He has a single engine CPL, that was arranged for him to pass. OMG the Edgeworth trait of lying about status and qualifications is really being passed down eh? This has to stop! How about a newspaper article telling THE TRUTH FOR A CHANGE, Where are all the true investigative journalists? Hiding behind their ipads in the coffee bars hacking into people phones probably
And as for the IAA, That can be answered by the cosy lunches and weekends at Faithlegg country club in Waterford with Edgeworth and the 'other' government lackeys.
As for PTC being reborn...do you not think that every airline in the world will be not be fully informed of the business dealings of Edgeworth along with every name associated with him and PTC........
And If I was him and I owed an eastern european business 1.2 million, I would be wearing a bulletproof vest....only a rumour...
“...are you all going to be first officers all your lives...any true Captains out there?”
Your question reduces all aspects of this sorry tale to its very essence.
Some of the posts here display a thinly veiled admiration for the shyster Edgeworth and his ‘business’ practices. The concept of trust and essential honesty is now considered to be a weakness to be exploited at every turn.
The meteoric trajectory of Edgeworth to the pinnacle of his ‘Captaincy’ could not have happened without high level political collusion and the tacit approval of the IAA.
I believe it’s standard practice to track the money trail in these types of crimes. In this particular case it might be enlightening to follow the ink of authorising signatures and stamps and then scout around for the empty brown envelopes.
Totally agree, everyone wants it now and that makes you vulnerable to get turned over. A lot of sales techniques really on rash decisions. And even the ba scheme at 100k for a job is so much money. If the industry didn't allow these backhand deals then all the low hour jobs wouldn't be sown up. Unfortunately it seems as though pilots are being squeezed while everyone else takes home the cash. But hey this is the legacy of the last labour government eg you will all go to UNI and all get good jobs. So expectations have been set way above what is realistic. Leading to a generation of angry individuals that feel the world owes them something when it doesn't. Inherent greed by the banking sector doesn't help but when you see all the Media the majority of young people want to be rich and have all those things. Rather than do something they enjoy even if it isn't the most well paid such as a flying job not just the shiny jet that really should be part of longer term ambitions, but a bonus if you can get it early if that's what you want.