Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies)A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.
The compliancy is fairly irrelevant. Have a look at this document. As you can see there are many states that comply completely with the provisions of annex 1, such as: Burundi; Fiji; Rwanda and Zimbabwe, to name but a few.
Then there are a large number of states that have notified the ICAO of their partial non-compliance with Annex 1, such as: Australia; China; India; The UK; The USA; Canada; Russia; South Africa; Germany; and France, to name but a few.
It hardly matters because to quote the relevant extract again:
States issue their own licences based on national regulations in conformity with Annex 1 specifications and validate licences issued by other Contracting States on the basis of bilateral or multilateral agreements or the fulfilment of nationally legislated requirements.
If there is a part of that annex those states do not wish to conform to, then they notify of a variance or non-compliance if (as table 3 shows) they can be bothered to do so.
It is if you work for a large legacy carrier in the EU.
The rest of us it can cause issues. Especially when you find out that someone is flying on an approval with a none compliant lic being the foundation and the insurance stipulates you need a compliant license.
It gets even worse when you have domino approvals.
Bealzebub - I take your point- I tend to think in shorthand sometimes and the fingers don't always follow! What I meant to say was ICAO standard licence. I know the GCAA are very keen to comply with ICAO, so it will be as compliant as they can get.
Do you think that starting career these days is smart thing to do ? If we consider that young cadets 18-25 years will have to work in industry for next 40-50 years ... Do you think that industry can make better reputation in coming years ?
If you love flying, is it better to get PPL and avoid flying for living..
These threads are becoming a bit of a bore now. Its been covered countless times and all you get is the doom mongers ranting about how bad things are! If you're a good pilot and work hard and not sit alone at home waiting for a job and get yourself out there, you will make it.
Flying is too important to disappear so there will always be a demand for pilots. Its common sense. The trick is to get yourself into the right situation at the right time.
Im actually glad there are doom mongers on here, it means they've spent thousands on flying and not thrown themselves into the aviation industry and are just bitter. This will make the decent people who take a risk and punt, and put themselves out there a better chance of getting a job. Makes me laugh really.
Any thing you do often can get a bit "samey". Although, it's hard to view a visual approach into Samedan LSZS as "samey" or a 20 kt xw into EGLC as "routine".
Repetition of any task is potentially soul destroying. So I do feel for folks who graduate from school, go straight into flight training and then go straight onto a medium size jet. What have they got to look forward to? Long haul?
This is my second career. I started life as a university laboratory technician. I am currently doing a psychology degree at the OU (UK - not Texas) to keep myself amused. I've been on my current type for 7 years.
If you really really really want to become a pilot, fantastic, go for it but understand the pitfalls. My advice is to not rush straight into it, do something else for perspective, maturity and money! There's no real rush at the moment.
No, I don't think it is a bad thing to do. It can be an enjoyable and rewarding career.
One of the problems, and I suspect it isn't a particularly new problem, is that far too many people take an unrealistic viewpoint on how to embark on certain facets of this career, which undoubtably results in widespread disappointment.
As with many other industries, this is one that has evolved. Those aspirants who recognise the reality and adapt themselves to cope with this evolution are the ones that stand the best chance of success.
Over the last 13 years of reading and contributing to this forum, I never fail to be amazed at the number of people who have wholly erroneous notions of how to achieve just what it is they want to achieve. On the other hand there are a minority of people who are rewarded with success through effort, determination, flexibilty, and being being able to deal with the setbacks.
I suspect in one form or another this has always been the case. You can tell people how to get from A to B, but many simply won't listen if the route is too difficult, expensive, or doesn't fit in with their own preconceived notions. Of course this all assumes they actually understand where "B" or their destination actually is in the first place.
This and other forms of social media bring the subject to a much wider audience than would have been the case 20 years ago. Talent coupled with perseverence and luck, stands as much chance in the evolved industry now as it probably did 20 or 30 years ago. However the new social media and "X-factor" generation provides a gladitorial arena to view the "trainwrecks" who are attracted to the entertainment of having a virtual stage to perform on.
I don't have a degree in any field. Personally, I would finish the degree and get a job for a year or so at least. You'll be in your mid 20s and in a better place to start training either modular or integrated as best suits you.
Remember, I am not in recruitment nor do I have a crystal ball. I just burn kerosene.
redsnail... do you think that is stupid to go for this career without having plan B... because I still dont have a degree... I have 2 years of business and economics.. but no degree yet..
I have two degrees and a CPL, although won't claim to have RedSnail's levels of air transport experience, and despite having had great benefits from my degrees I'm cynical about the benefits of a degree to everybody.
However, it's a poor job market at the moment, and if you walk away after 2 years of a 3 year degree, you'll never be able to use that as a qualification - as well as the final year generally being the most fun bit. Also, how much chance has anybody who walked out of a degree course got of borrowing the very substantial sums of money required for an ATPL course?
Frankly, I'd finish the degree, use your first graduate job to fund your PPL - without which you really have no idea if you enjoy and have an aptitude for flying or not, then decide what to do after that.
Finally however, there will always be jobs in flying - although equally there will also always be more low hour pilots who want jobs than jobs for low hour pilots. So trying to get into the flying job market with some existing income source and without massive debts is almost certainly far more important than getting there quickly.
Mate, I dont have to tell you this, or maybe I do, there is some quality advice here particularly from Beazlebub, Redsnail and Genghis the Engineer.
I have had similar thoughts to Beazlebub. I have been contributing and reading these forums for nearly 13 years, sometimes through people here and even colleagues in the professional pilot world I am amazed on peoples perception of the job, and what they want to achieve from it.
The problem you face is knowing and understanding exactly you want from the profession. I also had a number of jobs before I settled in the sharp end of a jet, but they were all stepping stones to getting there. To this day I still feel very privileged to be able to make a living from something I really enjoy.
Of course, now, after working with people who have come into this job from other angles I can understand peoples frustration, but dont necessarily agree with it. For example, and with all due respect, guys who enter this world with ease, straight from college, no life experience and responded to an advert in The Times, which was presented with a stunning view out of a B747-400 flight deck at dusk and never even gave a thought to aviation, end up in the job, because they thought it was a cool thing to do. Well, as the guys have mentioned, once the novelty wears off, the job becomes routine, they start to recent getting out of bed at 4am, or doing night shifts, having constant roster changes where they cant plan anything, being tested every 6 months etc etc, could find themselves hating the job. And now with the airlines wanting more for less they start to getting bitter and pissed off. However, on saying all of that, these guys/gals dont know any different.
Sometimes when you are older, and you have a slightly mature slant of the matter, you will take a lot more into consideration. I always look back at what I have done as a unique path to career happiness, even though I hated most of the jobs I had! But, they provided me with the money for my training and make me appreciate what I have now as a profession. I also learned a tremendous amount along the way and developed key skills in a lot of areas. All good stuff for developing yourself as a person.
I will be 100% honest and tell you what I expect from this job and what would I love to do with my life. And you tell me do I have proper views and I aviation something for me.
I`m 21 now, and aware that I`m still not completely formed as a person. But I know few thing.. every time I see plane trail on the sky I feel strange, every time I`ve entered a plane I adored smell of it. I would love to fly whole my life and enjoy having control of state of the art machine, enjoy view and responsibility. However, life wouldnt be life I everything was smooth and possible. I couldnt afford training and after years of searching for scholarship I managed to get one in Middle East. That changed my plans ( not wishes and dreams ) a little bit because I DONT want to spend whole my life here.
I hope that after finishing training I will find a job in this region since licence is valid only for Gulf states. I really dont think that I could brake 7 year limit that I`ve put on my stay in Middle East. So.. I would actually work for 5 years in a major, try to save some money to convert my licence and than go back to Europe and seek for a job. If it goes well ( with type form ME and lot of hours ) it will be dream coming true, if not I will find a way to work as instructor or buy small Cessna and do some "taxi" flying.
Do you thing that I have proper ideals ? Do I deserve this industry ?
If you have a scholarship then what's the issue? If you have found a company that will pay for your training and give you a job, then I can't see the problem. Unless there's something you haven't told us.
I have assumed you can live and work in Europe. Is that the case? If not, then the ME and Asia are your best bet.
That sounds logical but unfortunately it`s not like that... I managed to get scholarship as a way of cooperation between two countries. I`m not sponsored by a company and that why I dont have job guarantee.
I can work and live in Europe ( i`m european ) but not as a pilot since ME licence is not accepted. My scholarship covers costs of training but not costs of life abroad, so I still have to spend some money for apartment, tickets and other living costs and by rough calculation it`s around 20 000 $.
Another demotivating fact is that major from that country prefers locals and other Arabs. They only employ foreigners after they run out of Arabs ( and Indians since they have a sort of contract with few FTOs from India ).
I would finance my stay down there with a loan but not having a degree in any other field is putting me in insecure position. And I`m well aware that nothing is secure and I dont have a problem with taking the risk. But... is it a risk or a suicide ?
Ok. Well, what you need to weigh up is the cost of conversion. Yes a ME licence isn't accepted but you'd have to convert any licence to a European one. There are a lot of "ifs" but many of us have been there. I did my conversion in 2001-2002. Not exactly the best time in European aviation...
You're the one who has to ask him/herself what the risk/benefits are. I can't answer it as I am not you. By doing this scheme you're out of pocket a bit but it seems to me you get some sort of licence and maybe a job. Then if you want to convert it to a EASA/JAA one you'll need to do the 14 exams etc. Life will be easier if you can get a flying job and some experience before converting.
By not doing this scheme you'll be continuing with uni? If you continue presumably you'll get a job doing whatever. Then you can decide whether or not you want to train either full time or part time?
As I've said before, the full time/part time argument is another discussion. Depending on what European country you're in will determine the likelihood of gaining "jet" employment post training. (i.e. low houred)
There's not a lot of movement at the moment for low houred pilots in Europe and you're in your early 20s. There is no rush.
There is also no guarantee about aviation jobs. I can't say to you "do this path and you'll be a captain of a jet in no time at all". It doesn't work that way.
Of course it doesnt work like that. Even if it does I woudnt look for "buying" career as most of these "wasta" kids are doing in ME ( wasta.. arabic word for one with connections ) ..
I`m just wondering .. is it better to go for almost free course which will require conversion. And after finishing I will most probably be without a job. With licence I cant any other job except being a pilot.
Or is it better to finish uni, get a job and then pay whole training it`s really up.