Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies)A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.
The point I'm making isn't snide Halfway back. If you knew anything at all about the state of pilot recruitment and the current concerns of airlines you'd understand that there is almost universal concern amongst them that a straight set of first time ATPL theory passes is no longer a reliable indicator of an essential basic level of aviation knowledge.
Consequently airlines need to look for other indicators of basic competence - particularly given the startling percentage of TRTO fails attributable to lack of basic understanding of aircraft systems and how they work.
It's important for readers of this forum to appreciate that they mustn't take short cuts in their training whether they study with Oxford, Bristol, Padpilot, CATS or whoever.
Given that some schools (UK and European) encourage the short cut approach its all the more important that prospective students are alive to the risks.
Finally Halfwayback I have never made any attempt to hide my connections, past and present, to various training and aviation organisations as you seem to be implying. Quite the contrary in fact.
Last edited by Graham@IDC; 23rd Nov 2011 at 20:05.
Graham, I'd like to ask whether you operate in a non teaching environment for your career? If so, I cannot imagine how you could say that most of the ATPL course information is relevant to a flying career. Most of the subjects are so irrelevant as to make the matter a bit of a farce. Take the Gen Nav. What do I and other jet pilots do when we fire up our avionics? We type the route into our FMS. How about Principles of Flight? Those are so far away from anything a pilot needs, and even an engineer would scratch his/her head at the balderdash. The stuff in that exam is important only to an aircraft designer. This is true for most of the crap the JAA serves up. I think there is an argument for saying that the only relevant bits are about Human Perf, Air Law and some of the stuff on weather. Mass and Balance needs to be done for its practical aspects.
To the original enquirer, just get through this load of junk. It's only in Europe where the sanctity of the JAA exams are hallowed. The rest of the world places sensible emphasis on flying skills. I know at least one JAA ATPL holder who can't land in a crosswind. How useful is that!
Do I operate in a non teaching environment? No, not any more. But I used to, including a thousand hours on military fast jets.
I had the same rather limited attitude to theory until I left the RAF and did my ATPLs. I was staggered and ashamed by what I didn't know.
I accept that it's quite possible to operate without knowing much of this stuff. But you'll be blindly following SOPs and checklists that someone else wrote - without a shadow of an idea why you're doing it. That may be fine for years but one day your ignorance will turn round and bite you in the arse. You'll select the wrong checklist because you missed the subtle nuances of what the failure indications are telling you. Or you'll have no idea at all what to do because the aircraft will throw something at you that no checklist designer had thought of.
Gen nav? I forget the details now but you might try googling the story of the Air NZ DC-10 captain who saved a ferry pilots life when he became hopelessly lost over the south pacific. His fundamental knowledge of the relationship between local time and longitude plus a whole bunch of other utterly awesome airmanship got the guy within reach of land and the SAR services. Something I guess you'll never be able to do because all you know how to do is "type stuff into an FMS".
In fact you don't type stuff into the FMS you type it into the CDU then enter it into the FMS. Splitting hairs? Maybe, or maybe you've got no idea what would happen to the aircraft if both CDUs fail because you don't seem to know the difference between an FMS and a CDU. Flight instruments? Not on your list of essential studies.
Principles of flight? Air France 447. Or my own experience in a Phantom at low speed and full power wondering why it wasnt accelerating - until I remembered an old PoF instructor telling me something about the "back of the drag curve". Fuel too cold when cruising over Siberia in the Winter? Pah - what can I do about it - I've never heard of ram rise.
Mass and Balance and HPF eh? Ah yes no need to understand anything about performance - just blindly read off the figures in the RPM or ACARS print out. Its somebody else's job to make sure I'm safe. Don't make me think - I'm just the pilot.
I can personally testify to one incident when the very sharp and very professional training captains in one airline suspected something wasn't right with the performance data supplied for a new aerodrome that was being added to their route structure. Working from first principles they checked it out. Sure enough it was wrong. The performance data company had to rush out an amendment. Would you have noticed. Nah - performance theory is for cissies, you just type stuff into the FMS.
Other parts of the world just concentrate on flying skills? Ha please don't make me laugh. Ive seen what passes for teaching of flying skills in more countries than I'd care to mention and it frightens me witless. Stall recovery pushing the nose to 40 degrees down, no gate speeds for the circuit, flick rolling an aircraft when trying to spin it. Funny thing is, wherever the unprofessional attitude to studies creeps in, so too does the unprofessional attitude to flying.
But ultimately what really worries me about your attitude is that you seem to have entirely missed the point about what your chosen profession is really about. It's not just thrust settings and smooth flying. Every time you get airborne tens if not hundreds of people put their lives in trust to you. Further hundreds of wives, mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters put their trust in you to carry safely those that are most precious to them. It is your duty to honour that trust by being as professional as you possibly can be - in every aspect of your job.
Professionalism in everything you do doesn't guarantee you'll be safe but it's a whole lot safer than your attitude.
Last edited by Graham@IDC; 17th Feb 2012 at 00:32.
To the OP, I used CATS, they were fine. There were a couple of Spanish guys on my brush-up course, plus Italians, Germans, French, South African and more... The 3 chunk setup worked well for me, made each exam period that little bit less stressful. I got first time passes on all the subjects, so no wasted time.
I've visited Oxford, and the earlier reference to Bristol QB (ATPLOnline) is wrong only in that it isn't on the quiet, the use of this resource was quite open. Fact is I think everyone uses them. But I wouldn't advise reliance on this, whichever school you use will have their own in-house version, I'm sure.
I can't comment on Bristol's GS material since I haven't seen any. I did borrow a couple of Oxford CDs, which are great for a) putting you to sleep - the narrator is quite monotone; and b) if you can stay awake, explaining stuff quite well.
I get the feeling that wherever you go, if you put the work in, you'll get your passes so no point losing sleep. Just go with any that suits you.
I'd agree with earlier posts, do what you have to do to get the tick in the box & who you decide to go with is down to what suits you & how deep you pockets are. As for professionalism etc, wouldn't worry about all that right now, all that seem to be slowly slipping away, in future the right hand seat will be occupied by the highest bidder, everything else like whether you understood the subject or just understood the question bank won't matter...
So, you're cruising in an A380 and then all of a sudden an engine suffers an uncontained failure. The cockpit lights up like a Christmas tree as multiple systems fail. Grab the FCOM and look for the checklist procedure for totally screwed aircraft. Oops there isn't one.
Never mind I'll google AtpOnline, they must have a four option multiple choice question that'll get me out of this fix.
Jeez, I just despair at your kind of thinking. I wonder how you might feel if you, for example, break a leg and just before the anaesthetist puts you under you hear the surgeon say, oh I just did what I had to do to get the job - professionalism I wouldn't worry about that - it's all just slipped away.
You've clearly never experienced an in-flight emergency and clearly haven't a clue what you're talking about.
For any of you who think like Afro-anonymous you need to read this post by Tony Davis:
As an experienced MCC instructor of quite a few years and a Captain with two major airlines and an IRE/TRE on medium and large jets, I would like to pass on my thoughts about the standard of trainees coming out of UK flight schools with 250 hours. Most of you think that you are ready to operate in the RHS of something like a B737 or A320. From what I have observed you are miles away from it.
The lack of technical knowledge in safety critical areas is quite honestly shocking. I am not talking about how an RMI works or how to be a met man, but everyday procedures. Most of you know nothing of regulated take off weights (or mass in newspeak), what you would do if you had an engine failure after V1. You do not know the stopping distance on a foggy runway regarding red and white lights or airport markings. You have not developed any flight management skills and most of you don’t have a clue how to fly a SID or a STAR. You have no clue as to ICAO operations and PANS-OPS and a lot of you do not know even what ICAO is. The list goes on and on.
It is not the fault of the students in most cases. The training you receive now is all based on Rote learning and is totally cost driven. The failing falls at the door of the Authority for allowing the system to fail. The reason behind that is mainly cost driven and the lack of properly trained staff.
I have noticed that students from the third world are much more motivated (I suppose that stems from being close to poverty). If you want Europeans in the flight deck in the future then things had better change and fast.
I am hoping that the MPL will rectify a lot of the problems. The only problem there is that the European carriers are not really interested in sponsoring any large number of pilots. MPL is being taken up big time in the Far-East and that is where our future pilots will probably come from.
Quite honestly I now get quite scared sitting in the back as a passenger if anything should go wrong.
Last edited by Graham@IDC; 20th Feb 2012 at 19:55.
You're right Graham@IDC , I don't get it hence observing & trying to learn as i go...
Quote:
I have noticed that students from the third world are much more motivated (I suppose that stems from being close to poverty). If you want Europeans in the flight deck in the future then things had better change and fast.
Funny you should say/quote that because i am from the third world & i believe I am motivated to learn & do the best i can, whether or not a potential employer would see that in me or others who are after the job is another story, & that's where I think I'm getting lost, all i hear/see is what you are saying on here.
Quote:
You've clearly never experienced an in-flight emergency and clearly haven't a clue what you're talking about.
I have actually experienced an in flight emergency but not to the scale of an A380(i can't even fly one lol) as you have described, had i not done what i was trained to do(by a professional) i might not be typing this today...
Last edited by afro-anonymous; 21st Feb 2012 at 13:17.
"You're right Graham@IDC , I don't get it hence observing & trying to learn as i go.."
Excellent, that's exactly the attitude that will get you where you want to go!
Apart from the pure logic of professionalism, one of the reasons I keep banging on about this is because airlines are now very sensitive indeed to the poor level of preparedness exhibited by so many potential candidates for a right hand seat.
They no longer place much credence in a full set of 90% plus pass marks and are looking for other ways to determine whether the applicant is fit for the job.
Much of the stuff you have to learn for the ATPL theory is relevant but the reasons why its relevant are often very poorly explained - if at all. If you try to understand the material (not just memorise it) you'll be much better placed when you come to your type rating course.
[Just for the record I have no current affiliation to any school. However historically I have instructed for Bristol (a long way back) and (more recently) assisted with some limited parts of their material development. I also wrote a book for Propilot and used to work for Graham for a while. I've been flying aircraft for nearly 30 years including the RAF, General aviation and as a Captain for British Airways. I also have extensive classrom and line training experience.]
The content of a ATPL theory is FAR more relevant than most students think. For sure, some of it is over the top (Electrics for example) but by and large it is worth knowing.
(I do think it could be a bit streamlined, but if I had my way I'd ADD depth in some areas)
There are essentially 5 reasons why you need to know this stuff:
1. To pass your exams so you can get your licence. 2. To pass a technical interview so you can get a Job. 3. To make it easier (a lot easier!) to pass a type rating. 4. To survive when reality throws you a malfunction or combination thereof that is not covered by the book. In particular, how to deal with double binds; this requires deep knowledge so you can assess the relative risks of various courses of action. 5. So that, eventually, when *you* are a management or manufacturers pilot that the procedures you write are based on knowledge rather than a tenuous grasp of reality.
All schools will care about (1).
As for (2) to (5) who can say?
Pasing the exams is the easy bit. For gods sake make it your mission to gain as much knowledge as you can - it's cheap and will equip you well.
And as for the idea that it's so deep you can design the aircraft..... are you kidding? Engineering (design - not maintenance 'engineering') is way beyond the complexity of the ATPLs. Oh, and I have an engineering degree as well, so I know what I'm talking about.
Jamesaidan, you post is one of the worst I've seen in years. You are not only ignorant but proud of it.
Regardless of whether you consider that the ATPL Theory is beneficial or not to one's professional flying career, I am sure that there is one area that everyone will be in agreement with and that is the appalling state of the the Central Question Bank maintained by the aviation authorities.
Apart from the FACT that many areas of the syllabus itself are out of date and in some areas technically incorrect, the CQB is riddled with questions which do not stay within the limitations of the syllabus; questions with technically incorrect questions and answers; questions with multiple correct options; questions where the author can't even get the answer mathematically correct owing to incorrect formulae used or just plain poor mathematics, etc.
Then you have examinations where the question selection algorithm obviously hasn't been properly checked as it produces far too many annexes to permit the student to complete the examination in the allocated time, or more recently an annex which was actually a landscape diagram printed in portrait format such that only half the annex was available.
For heaven's sake, how can an aviation regulatory authority claim to be efficiently regulating professional licensing when it can't even produce questions and examinations which meet even the most basic of quality standards?
Are their own standards the benchmark that the authority is going to adopt as baseline criteria for all areas of aviation? Excellent, that'll cut my maintenance bills in half...........maybe not, I'd rather stay alive!
It is simply not good enough, especially when you consider the price that examinees have to pay the sit the exams.
Cut the hypocrisy and lead by example.
If an education authority operated by these standards I'm sure OFQUAL would have something to say about it.
I have to agree with Capt Pit Bull. I think its a very good response by him, and ties in with a number of conversations Ive had with other pilots, although there are a few things I would like to add.
I recently finished my ATPLs with Bristol (and would highly recommend them - which I think was the whole point to this post?) so that is the angle Im coming from.
I actually enjoyed studying for my ATPLs just because I enjoy learning, but I also think that my flying has improved because of the better understanding I have of the aircraft (still only flying SEP). Flight planning and understanding Mass and Balance help a lot, I also feel more confident understanding the weather. Knowing how instruments work and understanding radio nav have helped me when my instruments failed during an IMC flight.
The communications exams are useful, although they are the CAAs biggest con. £68 for VFR and £68 for IFR, each half an hour long and feature some of the same questions!
What I would also argue is that whilst its good to understand electrics, at no point during flight am I going to produce a soldering iron to fix a failed circuit. I also think Air Law contains way to much information from the point of view of the air traffic controller, and things like having to know the annexes off by heart. Id just look it up if I ever needed to know.
I think the exams are what you make of them and like I say I found them interesting (for the most part). What worries me is that I failed POF at first attempt (got 72%), in many ways this was a good thing as I didnt understand the material, so I had to revisit it and make sure I knew and understood it. The guy sat next to me during my course didnt even make notes during the lectures. He sat on the QB doing test after test all day, and passed first time. What looks better on a CV and is more likely to get you an interview. I just hope that once I get to interview Ive not dumped the important stuff.
That said if I'd had the time (I work full time in a non aviation related career) I probably would of hit the question bank for a couple of weeks before going to Bristol.
