Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies)A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.
Buck (new?) University seems to have split itself out again into the "university" element - which certainly does offer nursing, and "Amersham and Wycombe College" which does offer courses in hairdressing and beauty therapy. They also offer something that includes ATPLs.
Treat them both as what they are - vocational courses with substantial knowledge components, dressed up as proper education. Hair, Beauty, and Flying - are all vocational training, which is a different beast to true degree level education.
Normally. Any of them can potentially be part of a proper degree - a high level educational qualification. It's just that they often aren't really.
Ultimately, there's nothing wrong with aspiring to be a superb pilot, or a superb hairdresser. Just be honest with yourself and recognise that you've had a lot of training and a little education to get there, not the other way around. A "proper" degree is a lot of education, although also hopefully a little training as well.
I wouldn't however be embarrassed about being compared with a modern nurse. It's become virtually an all-graduate profession, and there is nothing trivial or pure-training about the education those folks get nowadays.
Says the person that makes a living off these pish Beckham studys persudo science ATPL degrees.
I am a impartial pilot who has views on the subject with a back ground in working in academia and also holds an Engineering degree.
Anyway with any luck the current fee's policy will put these pish degrees into touch along with numerous other "Beckham studies" leeching money out of gullable children.
3 years at 7.5K equals 22.5k Thats your CPL/IR payed for another 18k and you have you license in under 18months.
David Beckham studies isn't as bad as Surfing Studies, Star Trek or Queer Musicology. As if the government gives 10k loan for people to do these studies...
Says the person that makes a living off these pish Beckham studys persudo science ATPL degrees.
Once again mad_jock jumps to conclusions. He certainly lives up to his name!
I am involved in a degree which includes an ATPL but I am also involved with aeronautical engineering degree courses so I do know what makes a "proper" degree and what does not!
Oh, and are you going to tell Liverpool University that their 4 year MEng in Aeronautical Engineering with Pilot Studies is a "David Beckham" degree?
So your trying to compare a faculty approved BSc with a fully accredited engineering degree for CEng? And although there is three modules of pilot studies is is really not the bulk of the course (and certainly not a whole year with nothing else). And it has a minimal flying content (20 hours) the ATPL studys isn't sight I am afraid its half a NPPL.
Engineering Maths to second year really kicks it out of the beckham studies league table.
And your Aero eng degree is perfectly acceptable in my book.
Two years of maths but its doesn't say if its acredited with the Engineering Council. Which if it isn't I am afraid makes it second league. (And if it is why arn't you selling that fact on the course details like Liverpool does?)
9K a year minimum plus living expenses which doesn't include flight training. You would have to be barking to be paying that. You could get CPL/IR and FI for 40k in 18 months.
And it has a minimal flying content (20 hours) the ATPL studys isn't sight I am afraid its half a NPPL.
You obviously did not read the whole course description. Pilot Studies 1 covers the NPPL but Pilot Studies 2 and 3 cover ATPL subjects.
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Two years of maths but its doesn't say if its acredited with the Engineering Council. Which if it isn't I am afraid makes it second league. (And if it is why arn't you selling that fact on the course details like Liverpool does?)
It is accredited. A lot of Universites don't mention that their courses are accredited - Imperial for instance!
2 and 3 cover some of the subjects but for one modual courses thats hardly alot taken away from the academic subjects. Bit like the language options on other engineering courses. You fill a whole year with those two moduals mean while the students at liverpool have also done.
•Aeroengines 1
•Dynamic Systems
•Communication Systems
•Design 3 and 4
•Engineering Mathematics II
•Engineering Structures A
•Instrumentation
•Avionic Systems
•Numerical and Statistical Analysis for Engineering with Programming
•Project Management
•Aircraft Performance B
Apart from which if you take and pass the ATPL's in second year they are going to be spent by the time you graduate. And I really can't see the students being able to bang in the approprate amount of study hours on top of doing there academic engineering degree to be able to qualifiy on the modular requirments for home study. And more to the point ATPL is never mentioned. Its more than acceptable for Aero students to have an exposure to commercial performance etc. I have done moduals in Nuclear reactors and Chemical reaction vessels still doesn't qualifiy me to press any buttons in the control rooms (personally I would include the light switches as well in a Nuke)
Our courses are designed in an integrated way to build up your engineering expertise step by step. We use a balance of theory and practice, with many team-based projects running alongside lectures. Our undergraduate courses are accredited by the relevant professional institutions and are therefore part of the formal educational requirements for professional practice as an engineer.
Here is the list of accredited degrees in aeronautical engineering available in Britain.
For those who don't know, to become a Chartered Engineer, you need either an MEng or a BEng plus an MSc, ideally but not essentially an accredited one.
When I was working full time for a university I put together, and got accredited, one of the BEng/MEng + pilot studies programmes. The demands for standards from the RAeS were higher even than I had anticipated, but entirely appropriate in my opinion.
The entire PPL syllabus they allowed as 1 module (1/6th of the year) in the first year. We were never very interested in including much ATPL material, although a few bits snuck into some 3rd year courses on met and aircraft design.
Just an update from my previous post on this thread. As noted earlier in my post, I decided to go and do a Masters Degree at the International Space University in Strasbourg, France. I have my application in with Virgin Galactic now and hope to be interning with them this summer. I am completing some research work and would love to get your responses in my research, please see the link:
1. If you want to come out of uni with some knowledge that is going to help you pass your ATPL do; Maths, (Aerospace) Engineering
2. If you want to come out of uni with a specific industry in mind (e.g Aviation); do a BSc Air Transport Management degree or something similar in my opinion.
3. If you want to go to uni for the sakes of going to uni then do so, but you are wasting money and time. If you are the latter then I say get a random job and start your ATPL stuff now.
I did option 2 and it has worked out very well (I had to realise becoming a pilot was unrealistic).
1. If you want to come out of uni with some knowledge that is going to help you pass your ATPL do; Maths, (Aerospace) Engineering
University maths is a far cry from the GCSE maths/numeracy needed for the ATPL theory. Same goes for Engineering at university.
An aspiring pilot who goes to university shouldn't do so because it will help him become a pilot, but because they respect the fact that it is an expensive and luck-based career that is likely to come with periods of unemployment. If more people had a solid career (which tends to stem from doing a degree) before becoming a pilot there would be less willing to stoop to the levels currently witnessed (P2F, flexicrew etc).
Do whatever the hell it is you want to do and nothing else. Dont let others sway you. Its your choice, not theirs. Does a degree help? Depends on the employer. Simple. How many post grad getting jobs in the uk from either uni or pilot trg? Very few.
I believe it's a fine balance between going to uni and getting on with pilot training.
Approaching the end of school, my plan was to head straight into pilot training but the economy took a turn for the worse and it simply wasn't an option. I looked at the best way of spending my time, allowing the economy to improve and I thought it would be best spent going to uni.
With my interest in maths and physics at school coupled with my desire to become an airline I went for the 'no brainer' of doing Aeronautical Engineering at the University of Glasgow (the only place in Scotland to offer such a degree but also a very high ranking university).
The course has maths in both first and second year, and all the various courses mad_jock states above (Aerodynamics, Fluids, Numerical Methods, Propulsion, Flight Mechanics, etc....) but it's extremely tough. I knew it would be extremely difficult and as a result worked very hard and so far predicted for a 1st class which I never thought I would be capable of but people shouldn't think they want to be a pilot but want to go to uni and think Aero Eng is a must!
What made things worse for me is that during the summer of last year I applied for the BA FPP (got to FTO selection), Aer Lingus cadet (got to the final stage) and the FlyBe/FTE MPL (got to phase 3 of 4 but received an offer from FTE to join an ATPL course at anytime) and will all that going on - I have never been so less motivated to doing my Aero Degree and it's a course that if you fall behind, it seriously harms your chances of performing at your best.
The whole having your degree as a back-up situation is a bit of an unknown when I seeked other people's opinions. Speaking to one of my lecturer who is an instructor said that if I graduated, and then 5 years later lose my medical so cannot fly, I'm 5 years more expensive as an engineer compared to the newest graduates as the engineering profession is always moving and new engineers are leaving university and are also seeking that first job. Also the argument of forgetting much of the knowledge during the time you're not an engineer etc etc....
All I would say is it up to the individual if uni is for him/her but don't feel you MUST do Aero Engineering because if you are not interested, it's the type of degree that will make your next 4/5 years a misery!
Thankfully being able to put all the cadetships behind me and taking the positives from them, I can continue with my university career knowing I have what it takes to become a pilot and fully concentrate on my studies until the next schemes come around this year. By that time, I'll have my degree to hand!
All I would say is it up to the individual if uni is for him/her but don't feel you MUST do Aero Engineering because if you are not interested, it's the type of degree that will make your next 4/5 years a misery!
Have to agree but I think it's going to be more along the lines of not getting through the First / Second Year if the Individual has no Interest in the Engineering topic they are Studying.
If more people had a solid career (which tends to stem from doing a degree) before becoming a pilot there would be less willing to stoop to the levels currently witnessed (P2F, flexicrew etc).
That is true.
The message I was trying to get across was that if you choose to go, pick a degree that will benefit you in what you want to have as a career in later life.
Don't do a history degree if you want to work in finance for example.
And, I believe (as stated previously) that there are degrees that will train your mind and extend your academic knowledge to help you on the tougher ATPL stuff.
Speaking to one of my lecturer who is an instructor said that if I graduated, and then 5 years later lose my medical so cannot fly, I'm 5 years more expensive as an engineer compared to the newest graduates as the engineering profession is always moving and new engineers are leaving university and are also seeking that first job. Also the argument of forgetting much of the knowledge during the time you're not an engineer etc etc....
However, you would be able to offer 5 years of practical experience in handling aircraft and their systems - and living and working in the real world.
Which would be worthless when it came to hammering the codes in what ever line of engineering you are in.
Its a completely different enviroment.
You would be back into the pot with all the other untrained engineers which to be honest are pretty much useless until they have 3-5 years under there belt under the supervision of someone knowing what they are doing.
But you will have life experence and numerical degree which will open doors to you but not in the engineering sector unless it is in sales or the like.
engineering skills are extremely perishable even with 6 years worth on my CV I doudt very much I could get back in unless a mate did me a huge favour. I would go with your lecturer who is showing a better grasp of what the real world is actually like compared to most academics.
