Help! Son wants to be a pilot.
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Luke SkyToddler
I dont recall Mum specifying he wanted be an airline pilot.
You may not have noticed the military operate all sorts of aircraft. They need pilots to fly these aircraft so the military pay young people to fly these aircraft and spend a lot of tax payers money on teaching them to fly. So why would that not be an option?
Every heard of corporate flying. Flying a private aircraft, doing less than 200 hours per year and good if not better pay than an "airline pilot." Not everyone wants to be an airline pilot, flying around fatigued and showing the symptoms of burn out etc.
There is a world outside airline flying. Airline flying is not the be all to end all. Been there dont that.
I dont recall Mum specifying he wanted be an airline pilot.
You may not have noticed the military operate all sorts of aircraft. They need pilots to fly these aircraft so the military pay young people to fly these aircraft and spend a lot of tax payers money on teaching them to fly. So why would that not be an option?
Every heard of corporate flying. Flying a private aircraft, doing less than 200 hours per year and good if not better pay than an "airline pilot." Not everyone wants to be an airline pilot, flying around fatigued and showing the symptoms of burn out etc.
There is a world outside airline flying. Airline flying is not the be all to end all. Been there dont that.
Last edited by doubleu-anker; 13th Sep 2010 at 05:08.
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RTFQ yourself ... the woman is making references to things like "the modular route" and wishing to avoid "a mountain of debt" and "having to pay for more training just to get a job". Now excuse me for thinking that little Johny might be researching civilian as opposed to military options, since last I heard HM forces still weren't charging for their training.
And with regard to corporate flying, yes strangely enough I've heard of it, since my wife used to fly corporate for a living until the kids came along. I can't see how that makes my advice with regard to a 15-year-old looking into professional licence training, any less relevant. It's exactly the same licence is it not. In fact, if the travelling public don't like to see spotty fresh-out-of-flying-school 18 year olds flying their airliners, the millionaires of this world like it even less when they're flying their Gulfstreams and Citations. It's typically a career path that gets pursued once a bit of experience has been gained in other areas as you are no doubt already aware.
And with regard to corporate flying, yes strangely enough I've heard of it, since my wife used to fly corporate for a living until the kids came along. I can't see how that makes my advice with regard to a 15-year-old looking into professional licence training, any less relevant. It's exactly the same licence is it not. In fact, if the travelling public don't like to see spotty fresh-out-of-flying-school 18 year olds flying their airliners, the millionaires of this world like it even less when they're flying their Gulfstreams and Citations. It's typically a career path that gets pursued once a bit of experience has been gained in other areas as you are no doubt already aware.
Last edited by Luke SkyToddler; 12th Sep 2010 at 11:58.
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Correct.
When I began learning,(haven't stopped) there was no"modular" or "integrated" routes that I knew of. The self improver route was an option. However that has now been destroyed along with almost everything else the the JAA/EASA have got their hands on. Come back the UK CAA, all is forgiven!
The weeding out process should be done at employer level, not at the licencing stage. The FAA have it about right, or a damned sight better than the clowns in Europe. It has now become in many cases, who has or can get their hands on the most money. Like the process in a Banana republic, who has the most clout/money that gets the job. This is not necessarily the guarantee of selection of the best person for the job. Many young people have been turned off and away from pursuing a career in aviation in Europe for that very reason. Of course this is all in the name of "progress" and "worlds best practice".
The advice about getting a foot in the door is very good, getting a job, cleaning a/c, loading aircraft etc., being around people that are in the business. We all learn a lot from this site, from others.
It is difficult for the youngsters today, in any line of work or business but it still it can be done.
I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to follow and aviation career, for a job alone. It really has to be a "calling". There is no real enjoyment in the job anymore as far as I am concerned. Even flying for recreation or as a hobby, they have done their best to destroy. Admittedly there has been some progress as far as "deregulation" is concerned on aircraft, below certain weights.
When I began learning,(haven't stopped) there was no"modular" or "integrated" routes that I knew of. The self improver route was an option. However that has now been destroyed along with almost everything else the the JAA/EASA have got their hands on. Come back the UK CAA, all is forgiven!
The weeding out process should be done at employer level, not at the licencing stage. The FAA have it about right, or a damned sight better than the clowns in Europe. It has now become in many cases, who has or can get their hands on the most money. Like the process in a Banana republic, who has the most clout/money that gets the job. This is not necessarily the guarantee of selection of the best person for the job. Many young people have been turned off and away from pursuing a career in aviation in Europe for that very reason. Of course this is all in the name of "progress" and "worlds best practice".
The advice about getting a foot in the door is very good, getting a job, cleaning a/c, loading aircraft etc., being around people that are in the business. We all learn a lot from this site, from others.
It is difficult for the youngsters today, in any line of work or business but it still it can be done.
I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to follow and aviation career, for a job alone. It really has to be a "calling". There is no real enjoyment in the job anymore as far as I am concerned. Even flying for recreation or as a hobby, they have done their best to destroy. Admittedly there has been some progress as far as "deregulation" is concerned on aircraft, below certain weights.
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10 out of 10 for Luke's advice. Get little Johnny to do some of the leg work first. If he can get his private pilots license over the next few years without resorting to his parents cheque book, then it will probably be a good bet to fund the rest of his flying training.
As a start, next year he will be able to apply for a flying scholarship.
Air Cadets - Flying scholarships
Scholarships
Flying Scholarships 2010 - GAPAN
Even if he is not successful in getting Betty to pay for a few hours of his training, the aptitude tests that he will complete will give a good idea of his potential to pass the course.
Good luck
As a start, next year he will be able to apply for a flying scholarship.
Air Cadets - Flying scholarships
Scholarships
Flying Scholarships 2010 - GAPAN
Even if he is not successful in getting Betty to pay for a few hours of his training, the aptitude tests that he will complete will give a good idea of his potential to pass the course.
Good luck
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Hi,
I have just registered on this forum to get some advice for my 18 year old son who also wants to go into commercial aviation.I think this thread seems to cover most of my questions and concerns and has been helpful.
To date he has passed the pilot assesment at Cabair and Bucks Uni but the degree course [atpl and a degree in aviation] has been pulled for some reason, so that leaves the integrated route. Cabair are currently saying this is the only route for the serious pilot as airlines are only hiring from intergrated courses...but don't they also do modular at their Bournemouth site? Should we also be looking at modular training and would the combined degree/atpl course be of much use to enhance a cv for job application?
He has a medical at Gatwick booked soon but only a handful of flight hours and none towards a PPl.
As a family we have agreed a 'loan' for the £60,000 to get him started but reading your posts has made me think twice..
1. mainly about his young age
2. making this too easy for him,
3. the pitfalls of job prospects post training
4. and so far we have only really been in touch with Cabair. who else are the main reputable player we should be considering? [don't want to start a mine is better than yours argument here !]
Any comments gratefully received because we have some big family discussions ahead
and some decisions to make!
I have just registered on this forum to get some advice for my 18 year old son who also wants to go into commercial aviation.I think this thread seems to cover most of my questions and concerns and has been helpful.
To date he has passed the pilot assesment at Cabair and Bucks Uni but the degree course [atpl and a degree in aviation] has been pulled for some reason, so that leaves the integrated route. Cabair are currently saying this is the only route for the serious pilot as airlines are only hiring from intergrated courses...but don't they also do modular at their Bournemouth site? Should we also be looking at modular training and would the combined degree/atpl course be of much use to enhance a cv for job application?
He has a medical at Gatwick booked soon but only a handful of flight hours and none towards a PPl.
As a family we have agreed a 'loan' for the £60,000 to get him started but reading your posts has made me think twice..
1. mainly about his young age
2. making this too easy for him,
3. the pitfalls of job prospects post training
4. and so far we have only really been in touch with Cabair. who else are the main reputable player we should be considering? [don't want to start a mine is better than yours argument here !]
Any comments gratefully received because we have some big family discussions ahead
and some decisions to make!
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I would think twice before spending that amount of money... Does he have a backup plan if everything goes wrong? Also I would be asking myself 'If my 18 year old son is making mummy do the research for him, is he really ready for an airline pilot career?' Sorry if it seemed rude but it was a thought that occured to me...
I would see if he can get a PPL, there are a few scholarships/bursaries around also as someone else said on here if he could hang around at the local airfield loading/cleaning planes etc... This would prove very useful as contacts in the aviation industry are very important. Other FTOs (flight schools) for his CPL include, FTE Jerez, CTC, PTC Ireland, OAA. Just to name a few and there will be a lot in other countries. I would recommend doing a lot of research as to what happens afterwards his course has complete. E.g will he be required to self fund a typerating, in exchange for some ****ty contract? Lots of threads on these forums about this
I would recommend visiting the 'Flyer Exhibiton' at Heathrow Airport on the 6th November where schools will be exhibiting and you can attend talks about career choices. It is an very informative event EXHIBITIONS
As for the CPL a thing certainly worth giving a shot is the Cathay Pacific cadet scheme. Very fierce competition but what has he got to lose by applying? Cathay Pacific - Careers : Careers Home
A forum thread about it here at pprune http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbo...ml#post5931120
Good luck!
I would see if he can get a PPL, there are a few scholarships/bursaries around also as someone else said on here if he could hang around at the local airfield loading/cleaning planes etc... This would prove very useful as contacts in the aviation industry are very important. Other FTOs (flight schools) for his CPL include, FTE Jerez, CTC, PTC Ireland, OAA. Just to name a few and there will be a lot in other countries. I would recommend doing a lot of research as to what happens afterwards his course has complete. E.g will he be required to self fund a typerating, in exchange for some ****ty contract? Lots of threads on these forums about this
I would recommend visiting the 'Flyer Exhibiton' at Heathrow Airport on the 6th November where schools will be exhibiting and you can attend talks about career choices. It is an very informative event EXHIBITIONS
As for the CPL a thing certainly worth giving a shot is the Cathay Pacific cadet scheme. Very fierce competition but what has he got to lose by applying? Cathay Pacific - Careers : Careers Home
A forum thread about it here at pprune http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbo...ml#post5931120
Good luck!
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Drummaster, Im most likely the only poster on this site who has hired many, many pilots, so take what I say and digest it! {1} The last time there was a real pilot shortage was Sept 1940!{2} Cabair and other "Puppy Farms" are full of it, having been burned by grads from such schools { most of them couldnt fly or think worth a damn} I restricted my selection to kids who had done their time flying floats/bush/charter / instructing and had paid their dues and developed needed skills,all turned out just fine. {3} A pilot does not need a degree, as long as he/she can count to 360 that will do it. {4} The pay scales and working conditions these days are dismal, it will take an end to "Pay to fly" and Multi crew lics to rebuild both the pay and the status of the job, the ONLY thing which can achieve this is tough unions, {You might find this strange comming from one who has been the boss for most of my life}{5} Tell the kid to become a dentist/doctor/plumber or whatever, then he will have enough $ to buy his own aircraft and fly for fun! Sorry to be so blunt but each day I get CVs from good kids who have been duped/lied to and generally jerked around, most are from the EU and have been fed the line that the training in the EU is so great that we in the "Empire" just cant wait to hire them, belive me it just aint so! PM me if you want more grim news, Regards, Clunck.
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Hi drumaster,
It is a lot of money and I applaud your research. As you already know there is no easy answer, and as with so many other things it still boils done to an assesment of risk.
Firstly and before you do anything else have him complete the class 1 medical that you have already booked. Rather like a home survey or a boat survey, you need to write off this relatively minor sum before you start to commit to the big bucks.
As cabair are a seller of these products, you are right to be a little sceptical concerning the impartiality of the information they use to promote a particular product even though that doesn't necessarily mean it is erroneous or intended to mislead. I would certainly disagree with the suggestion that integrated courses are the only route for the serious pilot. There are a huge number of very serious and commited pilots who have and will achieve their goals via the modular route, so that is nonsense. However where I do agree, is that where airlines look for Cadet pilots (and by that I am referring to very low hour / ab-initio recruits,) they nearly always do so in conjunction with an integrated programme of training through a recognised and affilated training establishment.
In the UK the three main players in this arena are: CTC; Oxford and FTE. Most airline /cadet programmes are affilated to one of these establishments. Despite that, there has been very little uptake in the last few years even from these programmes, so it is most certainly not a "guarantee" of anything.
I am not sure if your discussions surrounding a loan of £60,000 are part of a larger package involving savings, earnings or some other monetary tool, but I should point out at onset, that these programmes will all likely involve a basic investment of around 50% more than that figure.
Modular training is likely to be significantly cheaper, but it should be understood that it depends on how you view the end goal and the methodology of achieving it. This type of training allows you to buy the various modules at whichever training establishments you please. It allows for more flexibility in not just cost, but also in time. For that reason it can be used by people to hold down other employment as a means of contributory financing. Many people will advocate this method as being the only common sense option. In part I would agree that if there is little prospect of gainful employment at the point of licence aquisition, then they are probably correct. However many people also erroneously believe that a commercial licence and 200 odd hours is simply all you need for airlines to be clamouring to employ them. They are wrong. It isn't, and never has been.
Airlines have traditionally recruited experienced co-pilots who have acquired that experience from a variety if time served backgrounds. They include ex-military pilots and what were termed "self improvers" that is pilots who had acquired their licences and then worked there way up through general aviation and entry level commercial aviation jobs, to eventually have the hours and experience that the glossy end of the market was looking for. Together with this, a few airlines would also select a limited number of recommended pilots from a few "approved" training establishments as cadet entry pilots.
Over the last decade and a half, many factors have combined to bring about changes in the way this type of employment has evolved. The rapid expansion of what is termed "lo-cost" carriers has seen a desire to eliminate all extraneous and undesirable cost elements from the operation. Without doubt (and at least one CEO makes no secret of it,) if they could completely eliminate the co-pilots seat they would do it in a heartbeat. They can't, so they look for the next best thing, which is how to reduce that cost. The answer has been to stop taking on the previous experience they demanded, and replace it with more of the much cheaper and extraordinarily plentiful supply of pilots who are prepared to finance themselves into that seat. So successful has this been, that in some companies it has spawned a secondary business in itself.
Changes, and significant increases in the retirement age has also taken the pressure off the left seat for many airlines. Captains who once might have retired at 55, can now work on to 65 with even less restriction likely in the future. Reductions in terms and conditions, as well as the deteriorating prospects for pension income and indeed the whole pension industry, has also combined to ensure that many captains have and will continue to work well beyond their planned retirement. This consequential lack of movement has served to remove the imperitive need to have a good experience base in the right hand seat from which to promote, and has allowed an expansion of the whole "pay to fly" environment, in all its variations, to thrive.
Despite that, many airlines are still wary of the need to carefully monitor the training background, personality and aptitude of those cadets they do employ. This is undoubtably much more difficult when it involves modular applicants, and for those reasons most schemes will be tied to integrated programmes from the recognised training providers.
To some extent this is no different than it ever used to be. Integrated students at the approved schools (of which there were few) came out with a licence and around 250 hours. "Self improvers" would require at least 700 hours for a commercial licence, however they could work as instructors on their Private pilots licenses (with the necessary ratings) as part of their career path if they so chose. Harmonisation changes resulted in this option being eliminated some years back, to bring the UK into line with other national authorities. As part of these changes the modular system was formalized and the hour requirement dropped in order to make the aerial work opportunites (such as flight instruction) more in line to that that had existed previously. The confusion often comes in the supposition that this large reduction in flight time experience was something that the airlines would simply ignore, they didn't.
I have gone on at length to give something of a background to where we are today. So now to give you my opinion based on the questions you asked:
I dont think his age (18) is an issue of any importance provided it is a career he is absolutely committed to.
Making it too easy for him? Well I know where you are coming from but only you and him can decide that. It will be very difficult and very frustrating based on most peoples experience. You should also appreciate that the attrition rate is also very high. However easy you might make it, the system won't. I would say that there is no great imperative, and perhaps the smaller investment of PPL training would help to either Crystalize a commitment or not. It would represent about 10% of the investment you are proposing, but in so much as the intregrated (not necessarily the modular) courses are concerned, would represent additional cost.
The pitfalls of the job prospects, are a very valid concern. Without repeating much of what I already said, airline jobs are very few and far between. Those that are available tend to be filled at this saturated end of the market from cadet affiliation schemes, or other "pay to train" schemes that do not usually promise much security of tenure. The entry level commercial jobs are also in very short supply and are keenly fought over. Things are likely to improve as they cyclically do, but the idea that there will ever be a shortage of airline pilots at the 200 hour level is simply a delusion. If fast track airline flying is the goal, then my money would be on a cadet scheme through one of the main players in this market, even though that comes with no guarantees and considerable financial risk.
I would get information from the main players in this market, CTC, Oxford and FTE. Also I would get information from other schools and providers. Read these forums, ask questions and then comes the difficult bit. It would be idiotic of me to suggest that with all this information and advice you can arrrive at a correct decision. All those emotional human traits and factors will still be a part of the mix. Just like you, I know that no matter how much information, advice and attitude to risk I arm myself with, I will still keep my fingers crossed that it all works out for the children we "invest" in. Luck still plays a huge part.
Finally I am not sure about these "degree/atpl" courses. On the one hand I would advocate any advance in educational achievment as being only a positive thing, and I would never discourage somebody from putting a degree forward as a priority. However I am not sure these types of degree are sufficiently meaningful in selecting a course provider? Personally I wouldn't let it sway the decision, but in truth I do not know enough about them to advise one way or the other, or to offer any meaningful input.
I throw this into the pot with the rider that you should keep investigating and if you have more questions (and you will) ask away.
Good luck!
It is a lot of money and I applaud your research. As you already know there is no easy answer, and as with so many other things it still boils done to an assesment of risk.
Firstly and before you do anything else have him complete the class 1 medical that you have already booked. Rather like a home survey or a boat survey, you need to write off this relatively minor sum before you start to commit to the big bucks.
As cabair are a seller of these products, you are right to be a little sceptical concerning the impartiality of the information they use to promote a particular product even though that doesn't necessarily mean it is erroneous or intended to mislead. I would certainly disagree with the suggestion that integrated courses are the only route for the serious pilot. There are a huge number of very serious and commited pilots who have and will achieve their goals via the modular route, so that is nonsense. However where I do agree, is that where airlines look for Cadet pilots (and by that I am referring to very low hour / ab-initio recruits,) they nearly always do so in conjunction with an integrated programme of training through a recognised and affilated training establishment.
In the UK the three main players in this arena are: CTC; Oxford and FTE. Most airline /cadet programmes are affilated to one of these establishments. Despite that, there has been very little uptake in the last few years even from these programmes, so it is most certainly not a "guarantee" of anything.
I am not sure if your discussions surrounding a loan of £60,000 are part of a larger package involving savings, earnings or some other monetary tool, but I should point out at onset, that these programmes will all likely involve a basic investment of around 50% more than that figure.
Modular training is likely to be significantly cheaper, but it should be understood that it depends on how you view the end goal and the methodology of achieving it. This type of training allows you to buy the various modules at whichever training establishments you please. It allows for more flexibility in not just cost, but also in time. For that reason it can be used by people to hold down other employment as a means of contributory financing. Many people will advocate this method as being the only common sense option. In part I would agree that if there is little prospect of gainful employment at the point of licence aquisition, then they are probably correct. However many people also erroneously believe that a commercial licence and 200 odd hours is simply all you need for airlines to be clamouring to employ them. They are wrong. It isn't, and never has been.
Airlines have traditionally recruited experienced co-pilots who have acquired that experience from a variety if time served backgrounds. They include ex-military pilots and what were termed "self improvers" that is pilots who had acquired their licences and then worked there way up through general aviation and entry level commercial aviation jobs, to eventually have the hours and experience that the glossy end of the market was looking for. Together with this, a few airlines would also select a limited number of recommended pilots from a few "approved" training establishments as cadet entry pilots.
Over the last decade and a half, many factors have combined to bring about changes in the way this type of employment has evolved. The rapid expansion of what is termed "lo-cost" carriers has seen a desire to eliminate all extraneous and undesirable cost elements from the operation. Without doubt (and at least one CEO makes no secret of it,) if they could completely eliminate the co-pilots seat they would do it in a heartbeat. They can't, so they look for the next best thing, which is how to reduce that cost. The answer has been to stop taking on the previous experience they demanded, and replace it with more of the much cheaper and extraordinarily plentiful supply of pilots who are prepared to finance themselves into that seat. So successful has this been, that in some companies it has spawned a secondary business in itself.
Changes, and significant increases in the retirement age has also taken the pressure off the left seat for many airlines. Captains who once might have retired at 55, can now work on to 65 with even less restriction likely in the future. Reductions in terms and conditions, as well as the deteriorating prospects for pension income and indeed the whole pension industry, has also combined to ensure that many captains have and will continue to work well beyond their planned retirement. This consequential lack of movement has served to remove the imperitive need to have a good experience base in the right hand seat from which to promote, and has allowed an expansion of the whole "pay to fly" environment, in all its variations, to thrive.
Despite that, many airlines are still wary of the need to carefully monitor the training background, personality and aptitude of those cadets they do employ. This is undoubtably much more difficult when it involves modular applicants, and for those reasons most schemes will be tied to integrated programmes from the recognised training providers.
To some extent this is no different than it ever used to be. Integrated students at the approved schools (of which there were few) came out with a licence and around 250 hours. "Self improvers" would require at least 700 hours for a commercial licence, however they could work as instructors on their Private pilots licenses (with the necessary ratings) as part of their career path if they so chose. Harmonisation changes resulted in this option being eliminated some years back, to bring the UK into line with other national authorities. As part of these changes the modular system was formalized and the hour requirement dropped in order to make the aerial work opportunites (such as flight instruction) more in line to that that had existed previously. The confusion often comes in the supposition that this large reduction in flight time experience was something that the airlines would simply ignore, they didn't.
I have gone on at length to give something of a background to where we are today. So now to give you my opinion based on the questions you asked:
I dont think his age (18) is an issue of any importance provided it is a career he is absolutely committed to.
Making it too easy for him? Well I know where you are coming from but only you and him can decide that. It will be very difficult and very frustrating based on most peoples experience. You should also appreciate that the attrition rate is also very high. However easy you might make it, the system won't. I would say that there is no great imperative, and perhaps the smaller investment of PPL training would help to either Crystalize a commitment or not. It would represent about 10% of the investment you are proposing, but in so much as the intregrated (not necessarily the modular) courses are concerned, would represent additional cost.
The pitfalls of the job prospects, are a very valid concern. Without repeating much of what I already said, airline jobs are very few and far between. Those that are available tend to be filled at this saturated end of the market from cadet affiliation schemes, or other "pay to train" schemes that do not usually promise much security of tenure. The entry level commercial jobs are also in very short supply and are keenly fought over. Things are likely to improve as they cyclically do, but the idea that there will ever be a shortage of airline pilots at the 200 hour level is simply a delusion. If fast track airline flying is the goal, then my money would be on a cadet scheme through one of the main players in this market, even though that comes with no guarantees and considerable financial risk.
I would get information from the main players in this market, CTC, Oxford and FTE. Also I would get information from other schools and providers. Read these forums, ask questions and then comes the difficult bit. It would be idiotic of me to suggest that with all this information and advice you can arrrive at a correct decision. All those emotional human traits and factors will still be a part of the mix. Just like you, I know that no matter how much information, advice and attitude to risk I arm myself with, I will still keep my fingers crossed that it all works out for the children we "invest" in. Luck still plays a huge part.
Finally I am not sure about these "degree/atpl" courses. On the one hand I would advocate any advance in educational achievment as being only a positive thing, and I would never discourage somebody from putting a degree forward as a priority. However I am not sure these types of degree are sufficiently meaningful in selecting a course provider? Personally I wouldn't let it sway the decision, but in truth I do not know enough about them to advise one way or the other, or to offer any meaningful input.
I throw this into the pot with the rider that you should keep investigating and if you have more questions (and you will) ask away.
Good luck!
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'If my 18 year old son is making mummy do the research for him, is he really ready for an airline pilot career?'
It strikes me as eminently sensible that parents would want to use available resources to ask questions, before they as a family decide to embark on any particular course of action. Indeed when it comes to the qualities inherently desirable in an airline pilot, not getting trapped into one assumption and the use of available resources to aid in decision making are quite positive, don't you think?
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Firstly, thanks to all of you for your valuable contributions: to clear up a few things, I am the father and found this website in pilot magazine whilst looking for more material. The son has done much of his own research but natually reports his results back to us with rose coloured spectacles, hence my own research for confirmation.
We are not a rich family [a career in UK military gurantees that!] but through house equity we can fund the 60k without much lifestyle change but only if all the ducks line up in a row. It seems still not to be enough given that he may also have to fund a type rating to even get a job with a budget airline.
From all your combined great advice and experience, the thing that does concern me the most is the post training gamble on getting a job in aviation. He is a good kid who is actually deserving of the support we can offer him but I don't want to set him up to fail at the first fence ie the system as it is, so we [the family] will all read this thread today before we sit down for a discussion later.
Thanks again for all your invaluable help!
Brian Short
We are not a rich family [a career in UK military gurantees that!] but through house equity we can fund the 60k without much lifestyle change but only if all the ducks line up in a row. It seems still not to be enough given that he may also have to fund a type rating to even get a job with a budget airline.
From all your combined great advice and experience, the thing that does concern me the most is the post training gamble on getting a job in aviation. He is a good kid who is actually deserving of the support we can offer him but I don't want to set him up to fail at the first fence ie the system as it is, so we [the family] will all read this thread today before we sit down for a discussion later.
Thanks again for all your invaluable help!
Brian Short
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It is a hard industry to get into and the way it is going means that those who can throw the most money at it get ahead. By get ahead I mean get a job in the end, have met people who have spent 100,000 pounds + doing their ratings, type ratings etc and landed a job with someone like wizz air, this pays peanuts so will take a long time to, in fact an eternity to ever get ahead financially and will most likely produce more debt whilst working. The reason people do this is so they can gain valuable experience in larger jets and eventually move onto a better airline where they can start earning and paying back the money used for training. It is rare that once you get the basic FATPL that it is the end of the spending and the start of making a return, it is more often than not just the beginning of the nightmare that is usually the case with this job.
I am not sure if you have considered this but it is worth thinking about. If you are using equity in your home to fund this I assume that it will not be a case of just being able to keep throwing money at it till it works. I went this route and 10 years after starting my training am working for a major airline earning a descent amount, got a job 6 months after finishing, flying skydivers in a single engine piston aircraft and then kept moving up the ladder onto twins, turboprops, and now an A340. This route took me all over the world, north africa, scandanavia, central asia, asia, but I got there in the end and never had to spend anything on training after my initial licensing. It is hard but if as you say he has determination and drive he has a good chance of getting there in the end. If all he wants to do is fly an airliner then this is not the way to go but if he has wanted this since he was 5 then he should be willing to do it the hard way that does not require throwing more and more money after it.
I did my training in the US and it works out a lot cheaper.
Ballard Aviation, Inc. - Flight Training, Pilot Supplies and Aircraft Rentals
No I do not work for them but shows you how much he can get a multi CPL for. Conversion back to JAA can be found by searching this forum or online elsewhere. I never converted back to JAA as found a job flying N registered aircraft so the US license is ok. Just off the top of my head to convert back to JAA would cost somewhere in the region of 15,000 pounds but obviously look into it as that is just a guess. So if he could not find a job on N reg aircraft he is still able to end up with a JAA FATPL and you would have saved a lot.
Another option although the competition for this is tough is a cadet scheme. The only one I know of that is open to anyone and requires no financial outlay what so ever, even pays allowances during the training is the cathay pacific cadet scheme. International Flights, Asia Airline Travel - Cathay Pacific International careers.
The biggest mistake people make is thinking that once you have a FATPL that is the end of the spending, it sometimes is but more often than not is just the start.
Edited to add:
My biggest regret was not going to Uni, received a flying scholarship from the RAF, applied straight out of school for a pilot position, did well in all the tests but they said I was still a bit immature after the interview for the job so go to Uni and come back after. I never went to Uni, if I had I think I would have had a good chance of getting into the RAF as a pilot. The RAF is not a stepping stone though, I really wanted to do that job so if your son has no interest in it it is not the way to go but maybe he should go to Uni. Mature a bit, join the university air squadron and do some flying, get a degree so he can get a descent job if the flying does not work. Most airlines let you work to 65, he is 18, there is no rush. If he does the flying now and in three years still has not found a job what will he do? Go to Uni when he is 21-22 after spending all of your savings? Go work in some low paying job as he has NO qualifications other than his FATPL but cant get a flying job? Have a back up plan, he is young, there is no rush. I was lucky but during the time from finishing my CPL to getting a flying job I was working in a factory, 12 hour night shifts, worst jobs in the world, I had nothing other than a CPL with minimum hours, a very scary place to be.
I am not sure if you have considered this but it is worth thinking about. If you are using equity in your home to fund this I assume that it will not be a case of just being able to keep throwing money at it till it works. I went this route and 10 years after starting my training am working for a major airline earning a descent amount, got a job 6 months after finishing, flying skydivers in a single engine piston aircraft and then kept moving up the ladder onto twins, turboprops, and now an A340. This route took me all over the world, north africa, scandanavia, central asia, asia, but I got there in the end and never had to spend anything on training after my initial licensing. It is hard but if as you say he has determination and drive he has a good chance of getting there in the end. If all he wants to do is fly an airliner then this is not the way to go but if he has wanted this since he was 5 then he should be willing to do it the hard way that does not require throwing more and more money after it.
I did my training in the US and it works out a lot cheaper.
Ballard Aviation, Inc. - Flight Training, Pilot Supplies and Aircraft Rentals
No I do not work for them but shows you how much he can get a multi CPL for. Conversion back to JAA can be found by searching this forum or online elsewhere. I never converted back to JAA as found a job flying N registered aircraft so the US license is ok. Just off the top of my head to convert back to JAA would cost somewhere in the region of 15,000 pounds but obviously look into it as that is just a guess. So if he could not find a job on N reg aircraft he is still able to end up with a JAA FATPL and you would have saved a lot.
Another option although the competition for this is tough is a cadet scheme. The only one I know of that is open to anyone and requires no financial outlay what so ever, even pays allowances during the training is the cathay pacific cadet scheme. International Flights, Asia Airline Travel - Cathay Pacific International careers.
The biggest mistake people make is thinking that once you have a FATPL that is the end of the spending, it sometimes is but more often than not is just the start.
Edited to add:
My biggest regret was not going to Uni, received a flying scholarship from the RAF, applied straight out of school for a pilot position, did well in all the tests but they said I was still a bit immature after the interview for the job so go to Uni and come back after. I never went to Uni, if I had I think I would have had a good chance of getting into the RAF as a pilot. The RAF is not a stepping stone though, I really wanted to do that job so if your son has no interest in it it is not the way to go but maybe he should go to Uni. Mature a bit, join the university air squadron and do some flying, get a degree so he can get a descent job if the flying does not work. Most airlines let you work to 65, he is 18, there is no rush. If he does the flying now and in three years still has not found a job what will he do? Go to Uni when he is 21-22 after spending all of your savings? Go work in some low paying job as he has NO qualifications other than his FATPL but cant get a flying job? Have a back up plan, he is young, there is no rush. I was lucky but during the time from finishing my CPL to getting a flying job I was working in a factory, 12 hour night shifts, worst jobs in the world, I had nothing other than a CPL with minimum hours, a very scary place to be.
Last edited by SloppyJoe; 16th Sep 2010 at 15:00.
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Brian,
A few additional thoughts from a non-expert. I sometimes read these threads because I do various courses and training and also instruct a bit myself. The present dilemma for all young people about a career in aviation seems a really difficult one. The cost of training has never been so high, the risks of getting a job appear never to have been so high, and the rewards the industry offers seem to have plateaued at a level well below the historical one pilots of old enjoyed. However, for all this gloom, at some point in the future thousands of men and women who are 18 today are going to be pilots enjoying fulfilling careers.
One observation I have about some posters in your son's position is that their focus is on the "easier and more fun" question of where do I spend the £60k (ie. which school, or Modular vs Integrated) and the question of 'what are my chances of getting a job?'. This is fair enough if economics allow you to chance it.
If not, and if it is a stretch to finance the training, then I think Bealzebub's approach is right. If you'll forgive the business jargon, it's about "de-risking" this difficult/expensive dilemma.
How do you de-risk? The first part is to be able to assess the likelihood of success progressively and, ideally, ahead of significant investment (put another way, not to make the significant investments until you have solid signals about the likelihood of success). No-one can predict the industry cycle, but some young people are going to get jobs, so I'd advise focusing on the question "in this difficult climate, is my motivation and aptitude likely to differentiate me enough to be in the 'lucky' X% percentile who do get jobs"? The second part is to 'protect the downside'? What if it doesn't work out? What if have to give up the dream?
On the first part, Bealzebub has indicated the right first step. The CAA Class 1 medical is an obvious starting point. Not even worth considering any next step until you have done this.
I'd say there are 3 other steps, 2 formal, 1 informal. I am not sure in what order they should be done.
(i) is the PPL, as Bealzebub points out. There are a lot of ways one can demonstrate aptitude and motivation on a PPL course. I'd look both for the objective ones (success in training, but not obsess about it, a lot of people are 'finding their way' into flying in the PPL) and the subjective (motivation to be well prepared before and punctual before each lesson, willingness to do the boring as well as the fun elements of training)
(ii) is the ATPL written exams. These cost about £1000 for a home study course - ie. about 1% of the total training budget. I am not saying that they are an indicator of anything other than motivation and being good at exams. I am sure brilliant students are terrible pilots and vice-versa. However, absent a better way of gauging this expenditure, I'd make my son a simple proposition: you want help with £60k? Simple, let's see first time passes at over 90% on all the writtens in the next 9 months. It won't guarantee anything, and a lot of people will get jobs with much worse scores, BUT plenty of people will be able to perform like that in the writtens, so why not use that as a test of aptitude and motivation before spending the £50-100k?
(iii) is the informal side of motivation and aptitude. How much effort is being put to immerse himself into the industry and the culture of aviation? Reading (useful, well-directed reading) costs nothing. Helping out at a gliding club costs nothing. Some interesting things can be learned, dare I say it, from 'serious' PC flight simulators (including very impressive add-ons for airliner navigation computers).
I think if you had the right mix of positive signals from the medical plus (i), (ii) and (iii), you might have greater confidence in making the full investment.
The other subject is protecting the downside. My personal advice to a young person would be not to forgo the best degree they could get and afford. The ideal perhaps would be an engineering first degree, and then a 1 year aerospace or technology Masters. It's all about differentiating yourself in the pilot selection process, and having an educational background to maximise the chance of your Plan B if the flying doesn't work out.
Having said all this, the actual choice of Modular vs Integrated and which school is a relatively easy one. There are a lot of good schools out there and a lot of good advice available. Personally, I'd be impressed with someone who excelled in some way whatever course they did.
It may sound a bit silly, but I'll make a suggestion and tell me why not?
This book costs £13
ASA Test Prep 2010 - Private Pilot £11.99
This software costs £20
FAA Written Test Preparation - Private Pilot
It is the course for the FAA Private Pilot Certificate, and the software has the database of actual questions. Why not give your son the book, and a week or two of full time study (say a half-term) and then see what score he can get on a practice exam. If it's 50% or he can't be bothered, I'd worry. If it's a great score and he's keen, then I'd feel better about taking the next progressive steps towards spending £60k of equity from my home to fund the training.
I am being a bit brutal perhaps, but one reads a lot of threads about "shall I or shan't I spend £60k", and few about "how can I differentiate myself or test my aptitude and motivation before making the ATPL training decision?".
brgds
421C
A few additional thoughts from a non-expert. I sometimes read these threads because I do various courses and training and also instruct a bit myself. The present dilemma for all young people about a career in aviation seems a really difficult one. The cost of training has never been so high, the risks of getting a job appear never to have been so high, and the rewards the industry offers seem to have plateaued at a level well below the historical one pilots of old enjoyed. However, for all this gloom, at some point in the future thousands of men and women who are 18 today are going to be pilots enjoying fulfilling careers.
One observation I have about some posters in your son's position is that their focus is on the "easier and more fun" question of where do I spend the £60k (ie. which school, or Modular vs Integrated) and the question of 'what are my chances of getting a job?'. This is fair enough if economics allow you to chance it.
If not, and if it is a stretch to finance the training, then I think Bealzebub's approach is right. If you'll forgive the business jargon, it's about "de-risking" this difficult/expensive dilemma.
How do you de-risk? The first part is to be able to assess the likelihood of success progressively and, ideally, ahead of significant investment (put another way, not to make the significant investments until you have solid signals about the likelihood of success). No-one can predict the industry cycle, but some young people are going to get jobs, so I'd advise focusing on the question "in this difficult climate, is my motivation and aptitude likely to differentiate me enough to be in the 'lucky' X% percentile who do get jobs"? The second part is to 'protect the downside'? What if it doesn't work out? What if have to give up the dream?
On the first part, Bealzebub has indicated the right first step. The CAA Class 1 medical is an obvious starting point. Not even worth considering any next step until you have done this.
I'd say there are 3 other steps, 2 formal, 1 informal. I am not sure in what order they should be done.
(i) is the PPL, as Bealzebub points out. There are a lot of ways one can demonstrate aptitude and motivation on a PPL course. I'd look both for the objective ones (success in training, but not obsess about it, a lot of people are 'finding their way' into flying in the PPL) and the subjective (motivation to be well prepared before and punctual before each lesson, willingness to do the boring as well as the fun elements of training)
(ii) is the ATPL written exams. These cost about £1000 for a home study course - ie. about 1% of the total training budget. I am not saying that they are an indicator of anything other than motivation and being good at exams. I am sure brilliant students are terrible pilots and vice-versa. However, absent a better way of gauging this expenditure, I'd make my son a simple proposition: you want help with £60k? Simple, let's see first time passes at over 90% on all the writtens in the next 9 months. It won't guarantee anything, and a lot of people will get jobs with much worse scores, BUT plenty of people will be able to perform like that in the writtens, so why not use that as a test of aptitude and motivation before spending the £50-100k?
(iii) is the informal side of motivation and aptitude. How much effort is being put to immerse himself into the industry and the culture of aviation? Reading (useful, well-directed reading) costs nothing. Helping out at a gliding club costs nothing. Some interesting things can be learned, dare I say it, from 'serious' PC flight simulators (including very impressive add-ons for airliner navigation computers).
I think if you had the right mix of positive signals from the medical plus (i), (ii) and (iii), you might have greater confidence in making the full investment.
The other subject is protecting the downside. My personal advice to a young person would be not to forgo the best degree they could get and afford. The ideal perhaps would be an engineering first degree, and then a 1 year aerospace or technology Masters. It's all about differentiating yourself in the pilot selection process, and having an educational background to maximise the chance of your Plan B if the flying doesn't work out.
Having said all this, the actual choice of Modular vs Integrated and which school is a relatively easy one. There are a lot of good schools out there and a lot of good advice available. Personally, I'd be impressed with someone who excelled in some way whatever course they did.
It may sound a bit silly, but I'll make a suggestion and tell me why not?
This book costs £13
ASA Test Prep 2010 - Private Pilot £11.99
This software costs £20
FAA Written Test Preparation - Private Pilot
It is the course for the FAA Private Pilot Certificate, and the software has the database of actual questions. Why not give your son the book, and a week or two of full time study (say a half-term) and then see what score he can get on a practice exam. If it's 50% or he can't be bothered, I'd worry. If it's a great score and he's keen, then I'd feel better about taking the next progressive steps towards spending £60k of equity from my home to fund the training.
I am being a bit brutal perhaps, but one reads a lot of threads about "shall I or shan't I spend £60k", and few about "how can I differentiate myself or test my aptitude and motivation before making the ATPL training decision?".
brgds
421C
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Okay guys family meeting over and since you have all provided some valuable information,advice and experience only fair to share the outcome with you:
We have decided Jake will go to University on Monday to take up his offered place on an Airport and airline management degree course. We will help him get his PPl over the next year and he will join the university air squadron. He will research and apply for cadet schemes as he sees fit and also he has the possibility to change Uni courses in year 2 to a more flying based one. He will finish this course at 21 and i think will be better prepared, more mature and perhaps with a few more options to consider. Our offer of finance stands should he come out the other side and still be committed to flying as a career.
This is just the gist of our meeting as we have been discussing this all day. It has been a full family decision but Jake is happy with the above and is now getting his head back into Uni mode.
thanks for all the advice.
Brian Short
We have decided Jake will go to University on Monday to take up his offered place on an Airport and airline management degree course. We will help him get his PPl over the next year and he will join the university air squadron. He will research and apply for cadet schemes as he sees fit and also he has the possibility to change Uni courses in year 2 to a more flying based one. He will finish this course at 21 and i think will be better prepared, more mature and perhaps with a few more options to consider. Our offer of finance stands should he come out the other side and still be committed to flying as a career.
This is just the gist of our meeting as we have been discussing this all day. It has been a full family decision but Jake is happy with the above and is now getting his head back into Uni mode.
thanks for all the advice.
Brian Short
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Brian,
a couple of additional points to consider:
you can raise the funds through equity to about 60k. To be honest and perfectly blunt with you, that is going to tap you out, and wont likely cover the additional costs that come up.
what if once he gets his fATPL he needs to cover a TR for 35k to get in line for a job offer ? where are you going to raise that ?
more equity?
call it quits and write off the 60k, time effort, tears and arguments already thrown in ?
60k will allow the ability to fund an fATPL on a modular program, but bear in mind it could be 2-3 years to find a job after that. the licence still has to be kept current !
you can find some overseas schools running JAA programs with JAA instructors/examiners that will allow the ability to gain a JAA fATPL at overseas prices.
the time effort and energy to convert an FAA to JAA is a PITA it takes time and money to do it.
not wishing to p*ss on your or your son's parade, but you do need to go into this with your eyes wide open.
421C and Bealzebub are giving good advice as are all on this subject, i would however adjust 421C's comment of de-risk to minimising the risk. you'll never remove the risk, but you can reduce it. (it's ok golden eagle i know what you meant
)
a couple of additional points to consider:
you can raise the funds through equity to about 60k. To be honest and perfectly blunt with you, that is going to tap you out, and wont likely cover the additional costs that come up.
what if once he gets his fATPL he needs to cover a TR for 35k to get in line for a job offer ? where are you going to raise that ?
more equity?
call it quits and write off the 60k, time effort, tears and arguments already thrown in ?
60k will allow the ability to fund an fATPL on a modular program, but bear in mind it could be 2-3 years to find a job after that. the licence still has to be kept current !
you can find some overseas schools running JAA programs with JAA instructors/examiners that will allow the ability to gain a JAA fATPL at overseas prices.
the time effort and energy to convert an FAA to JAA is a PITA it takes time and money to do it.
not wishing to p*ss on your or your son's parade, but you do need to go into this with your eyes wide open.
421C and Bealzebub are giving good advice as are all on this subject, i would however adjust 421C's comment of de-risk to minimising the risk. you'll never remove the risk, but you can reduce it. (it's ok golden eagle i know what you meant
)
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Some sage advice here, applicable to many careers, and I wish the best of luck to the young lad.
I've just stumbled across the forum while searching for PPL advice, and I'll ask the question quickly here rather than wasting a thread;
My son is 42 years old and wants to change career to become an airline pilot. What are the chances?
Oh, alright, my son is only 2, it's for me, and, not really. But is there a realistic age cutoff to start in commercial aviation?
Is there any point in an old duffer getting any commercial licenses after PPL with attachments, other than just for the fun of it, I'm thinking along the lines of NGO bush-volunteer, or semi-commercial photography flights, glider tow-launches and so on, perhaps even taking a career break. Maybe I should stick to the paragliding.
What if my son is interested when he's older, will everything be flown by computer by then? I image freight and combat might be.
Sorry a bit off topic and light, but it's Friday, for us 9-5ers.
I've just stumbled across the forum while searching for PPL advice, and I'll ask the question quickly here rather than wasting a thread;
My son is 42 years old and wants to change career to become an airline pilot. What are the chances?
Oh, alright, my son is only 2, it's for me, and, not really. But is there a realistic age cutoff to start in commercial aviation?
Is there any point in an old duffer getting any commercial licenses after PPL with attachments, other than just for the fun of it, I'm thinking along the lines of NGO bush-volunteer, or semi-commercial photography flights, glider tow-launches and so on, perhaps even taking a career break. Maybe I should stick to the paragliding.
What if my son is interested when he's older, will everything be flown by computer by then? I image freight and combat might be.
Sorry a bit off topic and light, but it's Friday, for us 9-5ers.
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As he is only 15 I suggest he joins the air cadets and gets some free gliding experience then in a couple of years completes the PPL.The industry would have hopefully improved in 3 years time and then I would suggest an ab-initio approved course to complete his ATPL. It works out expensive but better to spend the money on this rather wasting 30K at university where the degree isn't worth the paper it's written on and little of chance of getting a job relevant to the qualification.
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He's 15, set him in the right path by showing him where hard work will get him.
Tell him to find a job, save up money, and when he's ready to dedicate himself to it, pay off his PPL alone. If he can get all the way past that, help with his commercial license.
Or just send him this way, he'll read how depressing the industry is and he may run back to your arms.
I highly doubt he'll manage to save up money to pay off his PPL, he's growing and realizing women exist, his funds will be spent elsewhere.
My sister was in the same boat, but not with aviation. She had a dream and everyone found it to be naive, but after a ton of hard work and dedication, she's just made it into vet school. I'm not saying his dream is naive, but it is extremely hard to accomplish in this day and age and live a reasonable life afterwards, so let him do the work.
Tell him to find a job, save up money, and when he's ready to dedicate himself to it, pay off his PPL alone. If he can get all the way past that, help with his commercial license.
Or just send him this way, he'll read how depressing the industry is and he may run back to your arms.
I highly doubt he'll manage to save up money to pay off his PPL, he's growing and realizing women exist, his funds will be spent elsewhere.
My sister was in the same boat, but not with aviation. She had a dream and everyone found it to be naive, but after a ton of hard work and dedication, she's just made it into vet school. I'm not saying his dream is naive, but it is extremely hard to accomplish in this day and age and live a reasonable life afterwards, so let him do the work.
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Possible routes
This is just my 2 pence worth and please take it as that, i don't work for an airline and i cant even legally fly. But i do work with the RAF and have done for the past few years (on secondment from the Army), and i've had the opportunity to fly in the back of the hawk a/c on many occasions and have had many an impromptu lessons by some excellent pilots and by god do i wish id done things differently!
So what would i have done differently-
1- Joined the Air Cadets and not the Army cadets (free/discounted glider pilot licence)
2- Stayed in further education and gone to university and joined the UOTC (Uni Officer Training Corps) where you can do your PPL through the military at various RAF bases and also qualify for a £2000 a year bursary grant towards your study.
But what if he doesn't want to join the military? Don't take the bursary grant. But what he will have will be an excellent spring board for his flying carrier.
Again just my 2 pence worth, good look for the future!!
and by god do i wish id done things differently!So what would i have done differently-
1- Joined the Air Cadets and not the Army cadets (free/discounted glider pilot licence)
2- Stayed in further education and gone to university and joined the UOTC (Uni Officer Training Corps) where you can do your PPL through the military at various RAF bases and also qualify for a £2000 a year bursary grant towards your study.
But what if he doesn't want to join the military? Don't take the bursary grant. But what he will have will be an excellent spring board for his flying carrier.
Again just my 2 pence worth, good look for the future!!
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Let me inform you that im 13 yrs old going to flight school and learning a lot of things of an airplane like the four fundamentals, instruments, etc. and i have also loved flight since the age of 5. i currently live in America, Massachusetts, Boston. My flight school is at Hanscomb Field in Bedford and i flew over New Hampshire.