The perpetual 'Am I too old?' thread
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Your figures are off. 200 hours before the skills test, of which 100 PIC, 5 at night.
Hour building £10,000 or less depending on country and aircraft desired. PPL as little as £6500, ATPL £2500,CPL ME IR £16,000 at Bartolini. MCC + JOC- your choice. None of this comes anywhere close to your supposed £90,000.
Again, the wage for RYR and EZY are stated after line training of above £40k, unless the wikijobs figures are incorrect or I misunderstand them.
As was stated by another poster, if a company wants you to pay for a TR, you have a job flying that aircraft. Most would consider that an investment worth making.
Where are these airlines paying £1500 a month, I'll put them on my list as "most likely to hire me".
Hour building £10,000 or less depending on country and aircraft desired. PPL as little as £6500, ATPL £2500,CPL ME IR £16,000 at Bartolini. MCC + JOC- your choice. None of this comes anywhere close to your supposed £90,000.
Again, the wage for RYR and EZY are stated after line training of above £40k, unless the wikijobs figures are incorrect or I misunderstand them.
As was stated by another poster, if a company wants you to pay for a TR, you have a job flying that aircraft. Most would consider that an investment worth making.
Where are these airlines paying £1500 a month, I'll put them on my list as "most likely to hire me".
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Cadet pilots in easyJet start on a lot less money. Their first year at easyJet they are contractors, ie not directly employed by easyJet.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Where do you get your information from?
I'm a 10 year captain at NetJets Europe.
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You can compare some modular course costs here:
http://https://www.wingsalliance.eu/...et-calculator/
The normal caveats apply regarding living costs/loss of earnings etc.
http://https://www.wingsalliance.eu/...et-calculator/
The normal caveats apply regarding living costs/loss of earnings etc.
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You seem to forget / ignore the cost of typerating. Although your calculation of getting your CPL at 200 hours, you will still need to hour build at least 100 Hours, most likely more, as you also require 100 hours PIC. 100 hours hour building will be around £15.000 in a C152.
TR another £30.000,
So even if you manage to do your courses at £45.000, you still looking at £90.000
For some of is this is a significant amount of money, for you maybe it's not.
And you try to tell your wife that she has to sell her Audi A4 that she brings the children to school with, because you want to blow £90.000 on training, where you only have 5% chance to get a job, where you will be making £1200 - £1400 a month for the first 2 years, after you spent 2 years training, that's total of 4 years - she what she will say to you?
As I said, you are 25, you don't even have an idea of what the starter pay in the business is. Again, this is thread / replies I have been giving does NOT apply to you, because you are just a babyface still.
TR another £30.000,
So even if you manage to do your courses at £45.000, you still looking at £90.000
For some of is this is a significant amount of money, for you maybe it's not.
And you try to tell your wife that she has to sell her Audi A4 that she brings the children to school with, because you want to blow £90.000 on training, where you only have 5% chance to get a job, where you will be making £1200 - £1400 a month for the first 2 years, after you spent 2 years training, that's total of 4 years - she what she will say to you?
As I said, you are 25, you don't even have an idea of what the starter pay in the business is. Again, this is thread / replies I have been giving does NOT apply to you, because you are just a babyface still.
.I understand that the answers that you gave were not for me, and I know that you know better than I do about the situation (never meant to offend you).
I was just trying to give a more optimistic point of view for those who were asking.
Best luck to all wannabes and pilots!
Anecdotally, I would conclude that anyone seriously considering going down this route at a later stage in life would be best served by gaining employment within aviation in a non-flying role, and learn as much as they can about the training & recruitment system.
Not only does this get your face known, but it also injects some reality into the 'dream'. People in the industry are also willing to help when they can.
Just my 2p worth.
Not only does this get your face known, but it also injects some reality into the 'dream'. People in the industry are also willing to help when they can.
Just my 2p worth.
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Believe me, it's significant money for me, otherwise I would not be working and studing at the same time. .
I understand that the answers that you gave were not for me, and I know that you know better than I do about the situation (never meant to offend you).
I was just trying to give a more optimistic point of view for those who were asking.
Best luck to all wannabes and pilots!
.I understand that the answers that you gave were not for me, and I know that you know better than I do about the situation (never meant to offend you).
I was just trying to give a more optimistic point of view for those who were asking.
Best luck to all wannabes and pilots!
GIVE A MORE OPTIMISTIC POINT OF VIEW?
Why should I lie? Why should I encourage someone to take a risk, that can lead them to loosing all?
It's much easier to recover in life if you try and fail at 25, than you try and fail at 45.
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If I had my time again and had to start from scratch.
I wouldn't entertain the idea of becoming an airline pilot.
I feel that the whole airline culture, from the top down is rotten to the core.
I have nothing but contempt for the banks and some schools too.
We all know who I'm talking about.
Don't get me wrong, I love aviation. I always have.
I've been in the business for over 40 years.
From apprentice aircraft mechanic to major airline captain.
But the world I grew up in is far removed from today's.
And I think it's getting worse.
What I'd do, is either set my goals lower and be content as a air taxi/charter pilot.
I wouldn't entertain the notion of borrowing 100 Large, ever, under any circumstances.
Get a CPL/IR by all means, as cheaply as possible.
But borrowing money for an airlines MPL? NO!
Or I may work towards being an owner/operator.
This is where the money is.
But starting in your 40s and jumping through all those hoops.
Just for 'the dream'.
No, the dream in reality is a nightmare.
I encourage all of you to spend more time outside the professional pilot training section of this site.
Look into the interview, terms and contracts section too.
Don't stop there, look into the worldwide part as well, and see what people are putting up with.
It's sickening.
I wouldn't entertain the idea of becoming an airline pilot.
I feel that the whole airline culture, from the top down is rotten to the core.
I have nothing but contempt for the banks and some schools too.
We all know who I'm talking about.
Don't get me wrong, I love aviation. I always have.
I've been in the business for over 40 years.
From apprentice aircraft mechanic to major airline captain.
But the world I grew up in is far removed from today's.
And I think it's getting worse.
What I'd do, is either set my goals lower and be content as a air taxi/charter pilot.
I wouldn't entertain the notion of borrowing 100 Large, ever, under any circumstances.
Get a CPL/IR by all means, as cheaply as possible.
But borrowing money for an airlines MPL? NO!
Or I may work towards being an owner/operator.
This is where the money is.
But starting in your 40s and jumping through all those hoops.
Just for 'the dream'.
No, the dream in reality is a nightmare.
I encourage all of you to spend more time outside the professional pilot training section of this site.
Look into the interview, terms and contracts section too.
Don't stop there, look into the worldwide part as well, and see what people are putting up with.
It's sickening.
Have a read at TC's, it seems many here havent, and believe this is the road to great riches and lots of gold, it isn't.
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As short follow up to "button push ignored" - working full time in the "Short haul" Lo Co - full time over 5 - 10 years, if you approaching 45 -50 and have family commitments, a life outside aviation, extremely hard.
This is the reason that we today see this becoming more and more a part time job, as the pressure and long working hours, makes it extremely hard to do this job full time with the way the companies are running their operations at the moment.
This is another aspect that many of you who want to start in training in your 40's need to consider. Considering that you can only survive this long term if you are part time, than that means you need wave goodbye to the + £100K salary when you reach the LHS, as it is extremely fatiguing to work Short Haul like Ryanair etc. full time and do close to 900 hours every year.
As an example, let's just use the figure of a Captain, pay is approx. £120.000 before tax. Example flight time is 900 hours, you will do approx. 1800 duty hours. The 900 hours is just your block hours, duty hours is approx. close to double. Just out of interest for the maths, we say you do 1650 duty hours.
After taxes, pension, and National insurance, you will have around £5500 left net a month. For 12 months this is approx. £66.000 net. Not bad is it?
Now you work 1650 duty hours, this means your average hourly pay is approx. £40 an hour after tax. This is the hourly rate for a Captain, and FO, you can divide the figure by approx. 3 or 4 depending on what company you work for, and experience level.
Your peak season is in ALL the school holidays of your children, so for you to get leave the same time as your family / children is like winning the lottery, it might happen once every 5 to 10 years if all works out.
This is the reason that we today see this becoming more and more a part time job, as the pressure and long working hours, makes it extremely hard to do this job full time with the way the companies are running their operations at the moment.
This is another aspect that many of you who want to start in training in your 40's need to consider. Considering that you can only survive this long term if you are part time, than that means you need wave goodbye to the + £100K salary when you reach the LHS, as it is extremely fatiguing to work Short Haul like Ryanair etc. full time and do close to 900 hours every year.
As an example, let's just use the figure of a Captain, pay is approx. £120.000 before tax. Example flight time is 900 hours, you will do approx. 1800 duty hours. The 900 hours is just your block hours, duty hours is approx. close to double. Just out of interest for the maths, we say you do 1650 duty hours.
After taxes, pension, and National insurance, you will have around £5500 left net a month. For 12 months this is approx. £66.000 net. Not bad is it?
Now you work 1650 duty hours, this means your average hourly pay is approx. £40 an hour after tax. This is the hourly rate for a Captain, and FO, you can divide the figure by approx. 3 or 4 depending on what company you work for, and experience level.
Your peak season is in ALL the school holidays of your children, so for you to get leave the same time as your family / children is like winning the lottery, it might happen once every 5 to 10 years if all works out.
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When a jet engine spools up I get a rush of adrenaline through my body. Worth every penny, spent, or lost in wages in my opinion.
"Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life."
"Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life."
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And what if you are 60?
I am just going to throw this into the ring, so you can have a laugh (at me?), and maybe make the 50 year olds feel REALLY GOOD!
Yes I have made a few bad choices and now I am 60 (only just), and wish that I was flying every day of my life instead of once a fortnight out of the aéroclub.
I am happily married with three grown up children, no mortgage and still ten or fifteen years of work ahead of me (I am self employed surveyor and part time ATPL lecturer in Air Law).
I have my PPL (I fly mostly Piper 28) and am based in LFMD.
The big question, have I really left it too late, is my dream of some (any) commercial flying activity, now just a dream, or is there still a niche out there for someone like me?
Is it even too late (not worth) putting the effort in for the CPL?
Yes I have made a few bad choices and now I am 60 (only just), and wish that I was flying every day of my life instead of once a fortnight out of the aéroclub.
I am happily married with three grown up children, no mortgage and still ten or fifteen years of work ahead of me (I am self employed surveyor and part time ATPL lecturer in Air Law).
I have my PPL (I fly mostly Piper 28) and am based in LFMD.
The big question, have I really left it too late, is my dream of some (any) commercial flying activity, now just a dream, or is there still a niche out there for someone like me?
Is it even too late (not worth) putting the effort in for the CPL?
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I don't think so. From a modular perspective there has to be something that drives you. 5, 15, 25 or 45, if you press your nose up against the glass at a departure lounge and can't imagine anything more satisfying than sitting in that cockpit, or the rush from advancing the throttle, and that incredible moment when you break a grey rainy surface and into crisp beautiful sunshine, and it makes you feel 5 years old all over again.
That's what I feel, I would suggest if others feel the same, regardless of age, they are forever going to look at jets going over and think, "what if?".
Forgive me for being all wide eyed and optimistic, but there is really nothing else I could see myself doing now, and I would recommend everyone who has the opportunity to at least try, to do so.
That's what I feel, I would suggest if others feel the same, regardless of age, they are forever going to look at jets going over and think, "what if?".
Forgive me for being all wide eyed and optimistic, but there is really nothing else I could see myself doing now, and I would recommend everyone who has the opportunity to at least try, to do so.
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Rouretan, do the CPL if you want to sharpen up some of your flying skills, I doubt you will get a job in a multi crew environment because of your age. Single pilot AOC ops are out as well, as far as I can remember if you are 60+ then you would have to fly with a rated/qualified safety pilot. Maybe get a job towing gliders or something, perhaps instructing as that may be an option.
With regards to the over 40 mid life crisis mob, well.. I have to ask the question; if the passion has been burning all your life then where has the motivation been all these years? Why no PPL, why no airforce career? People with life long ambitions of being pilots more often than not try and be pilots, or at least work around aircraft!
There is some good advice that's been dished out above, realities of that advice are very real. Airline recruitment departments have never been banging the doors down of 40 year old ab initio pilots. The new hires in this category are usually twenty somethings to early thirty year olds, usually of a very high calibre! You will not only be fighting the recruitment team but you will up against some pretty sharp malleable cookies keen to impress (probably all with first time test passes) contrary to what some think, newbies with no experience are sometimes asked about this.
Earning potential wise, you have to seriously consider that should you make it through training, the best you can realistically hope for is a regional turboprop/jet job with a pay cheque to match. That means earnings in the low thirties max until you are qualified to be considered for a command, perhaps 4-5 years. You will be praying that the market has not turned when you finally pass out because if it does, you will be left with ever diminishing skills and some useless bits of paper in a blue plastic book! This is when the real realities kick in, you will effectively be unemployable as the sea of experienced out of work rated pilots take whatever scraps are on offer. You will be obliged to maintain your precious new skills at great cost to yourself!
Money and time to burn? Then go for it. Looking to scratch a life long aviation itch? Go and get a PPL, trust me it's very fulfilling and a damn sight cheaper.
With regards to the over 40 mid life crisis mob, well.. I have to ask the question; if the passion has been burning all your life then where has the motivation been all these years? Why no PPL, why no airforce career? People with life long ambitions of being pilots more often than not try and be pilots, or at least work around aircraft!
There is some good advice that's been dished out above, realities of that advice are very real. Airline recruitment departments have never been banging the doors down of 40 year old ab initio pilots. The new hires in this category are usually twenty somethings to early thirty year olds, usually of a very high calibre! You will not only be fighting the recruitment team but you will up against some pretty sharp malleable cookies keen to impress (probably all with first time test passes) contrary to what some think, newbies with no experience are sometimes asked about this.
Earning potential wise, you have to seriously consider that should you make it through training, the best you can realistically hope for is a regional turboprop/jet job with a pay cheque to match. That means earnings in the low thirties max until you are qualified to be considered for a command, perhaps 4-5 years. You will be praying that the market has not turned when you finally pass out because if it does, you will be left with ever diminishing skills and some useless bits of paper in a blue plastic book! This is when the real realities kick in, you will effectively be unemployable as the sea of experienced out of work rated pilots take whatever scraps are on offer. You will be obliged to maintain your precious new skills at great cost to yourself!
Money and time to burn? Then go for it. Looking to scratch a life long aviation itch? Go and get a PPL, trust me it's very fulfilling and a damn sight cheaper.
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Just for info as it might help some of you wrestling with the decision. I gave up a secure final salaried IT career at 34 and followed the dream. After an integrated course at Oxford I spent 18 months looking for a first flying job and only got one because of Oxford's referral. During that time I had to fall back on my IT skills or we'd have lost the house.
I spent 5 years flying for a UK regional - good fun, tough rosters though but great people and a lowish salary. Eventually got on a regional jet and to be honest that was the best 2 years of my career - superb aeroplane, small local base, brilliant camaraderie and decentish money. I loved it and would never have left! A company restructure though forced me back onto turboprops with an attendant pay cut so I looked elsewhere and managed to get into a big legacy carrier on shorthaul. It was my lifetime ambition realised.
The problem is the reality doesn't live up to the hype - I was junior so spent every weekend away in Europe, my hobbies and family life were none existent and I missed all my mates at the regional. It's tough going into work day after day and not knowing anyone you work with while your family are at home missing you all weekend.
I was so fed up I considered calling the old regional and asking for my job back - came very close many many times. In the end I decided the best option was going part time at the legacy. That's addressed some of the issues with lifestyle and the money still beats the regional.
The problem is because of the lack of camaraderie, the long EASA days and the changing face/culture of aviation that approaching 50 I'm now looking back and wondering if it was indeed worth it (and I was one of the lucky ones in terms of career progression).
I think the truth is you may be better off sticking with a current well paid (IT, accountancy etc) career and going part time. You will be able to enjoy more time with your family, more time with your friends asnd hobbies and you will be able to retire earlier! If I'd stayed in IT I'd still have a final salary pension, my mortgage would be paid off and I would be planning to retire by 55 to spend time playing guitar, going for bike rides and doing other stuff all of which is more fun than flying heavy metal.
Is the actual flying bit better than IT - yes, but with IT I'd be home again tonight in 8 hours whereas I won't be home for several days and that begins to become a drag especially as you get older.
I'm only giving my perspective and I hope it's helpful. Most people who have been flying for a while eventually begin to regard it as a job like any other and would rather be doing something else. All my pilot mates feel the same, many are trying to develop businesses to find a way out. I too was the kid with the airband at the airshows, I stood by the fence at airports, built my own flight simulator, built airfix kits and all the rest of it but cost cutting and EASA is sapping everybody's enthusiasm now and mostly you'll just feel tired of it.
If you do go ahead don't be taken in by the glossy megacarriers and the big jets - you'll often have far more fun flying a turboprop with your mates out of a small airfield - trust me!
I spent 5 years flying for a UK regional - good fun, tough rosters though but great people and a lowish salary. Eventually got on a regional jet and to be honest that was the best 2 years of my career - superb aeroplane, small local base, brilliant camaraderie and decentish money. I loved it and would never have left! A company restructure though forced me back onto turboprops with an attendant pay cut so I looked elsewhere and managed to get into a big legacy carrier on shorthaul. It was my lifetime ambition realised.
The problem is the reality doesn't live up to the hype - I was junior so spent every weekend away in Europe, my hobbies and family life were none existent and I missed all my mates at the regional. It's tough going into work day after day and not knowing anyone you work with while your family are at home missing you all weekend.
I was so fed up I considered calling the old regional and asking for my job back - came very close many many times. In the end I decided the best option was going part time at the legacy. That's addressed some of the issues with lifestyle and the money still beats the regional.
The problem is because of the lack of camaraderie, the long EASA days and the changing face/culture of aviation that approaching 50 I'm now looking back and wondering if it was indeed worth it (and I was one of the lucky ones in terms of career progression).
I think the truth is you may be better off sticking with a current well paid (IT, accountancy etc) career and going part time. You will be able to enjoy more time with your family, more time with your friends asnd hobbies and you will be able to retire earlier! If I'd stayed in IT I'd still have a final salary pension, my mortgage would be paid off and I would be planning to retire by 55 to spend time playing guitar, going for bike rides and doing other stuff all of which is more fun than flying heavy metal.
Is the actual flying bit better than IT - yes, but with IT I'd be home again tonight in 8 hours whereas I won't be home for several days and that begins to become a drag especially as you get older.
I'm only giving my perspective and I hope it's helpful. Most people who have been flying for a while eventually begin to regard it as a job like any other and would rather be doing something else. All my pilot mates feel the same, many are trying to develop businesses to find a way out. I too was the kid with the airband at the airshows, I stood by the fence at airports, built my own flight simulator, built airfix kits and all the rest of it but cost cutting and EASA is sapping everybody's enthusiasm now and mostly you'll just feel tired of it.
If you do go ahead don't be taken in by the glossy megacarriers and the big jets - you'll often have far more fun flying a turboprop with your mates out of a small airfield - trust me!
