The perpetual 'Am I too old?' thread
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Rather a reality check, as we do not yet know the effect of Brexit, the collapse of the Pound, the reduction of T & C's due to unfair competition and oversupply of crews.
Something has to give when the last 12 months, there has been an almost 30% price increase for Brits wanting to travel abroad, only because of the collapse of the Pound.
Something has to give when the last 12 months, there has been an almost 30% price increase for Brits wanting to travel abroad, only because of the collapse of the Pound.
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Ryanair are hoovering up low hours guys.
Maybe suggest the most affordable ways and explain the realities of training, after all, we all have X number of stories about people who did and didn't get jobs, it's very difficult to give an accurate assessment.
Personally, if you can afford to do the PPL I would always recommend starting there, it usually helps the decision.
Maybe suggest the most affordable ways and explain the realities of training, after all, we all have X number of stories about people who did and didn't get jobs, it's very difficult to give an accurate assessment.
Personally, if you can afford to do the PPL I would always recommend starting there, it usually helps the decision.
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I was giving advice to somebody who is in their 40's. Trust me, Ryanair are NOT hoovering up newly trained pilots in their mid 40's.
I am not going to tell someone in their 40's, with family (children), that just do it, with rose tinted glasses, without warning of the pitfalls.
I am not going to tell someone in their 40's, with family (children), that just do it, with rose tinted glasses, without warning of the pitfalls.
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You'll be lucky to get a second glance in your mid-thirties! I've had my application in for over a year and not a peep heard out of them. I know it's a small sample size, but on my MCC the two guys under 30 had interviews with them within 2 weeks and the two (much more handsome) old fellows, with the same qualifications, have never heard a single thing. It can't be my CV as I've been invited to selection and passed the assessment for another operator.
Last edited by gfunc; 31st Aug 2017 at 15:44. Reason: typo
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I was giving advice to somebody who is in their 40's. Trust me, Ryanair are NOT hoovering up newly trained pilots in their mid 40's.
I am not going to tell someone in their 40's, with family (children), that just do it, with rose tinted glasses, without warning of the pitfalls.
I am not going to tell someone in their 40's, with family (children), that just do it, with rose tinted glasses, without warning of the pitfalls.
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If you are in your mid 40's, the odds are heavily stacked against you. I speak from personal experience.
I am not sure what your age is "jamesgrainge" - maybe 10 or 13 to come with the following comment "some people are driven by more than their future paycheck" - when you are in your 40's, with children / family, that future paycheck is pretty important to be sure you will have a house for your children to leave and food on the table.
You will spend close to £100.000 - this is no pocket change, and your chances to get a job that will give you a living wage, never-mind getting a living lifestyle, is maybe 5 %. You will have people from FTO's, that will "sell you the dream" but when they have your money, they don't care what happens to you, it will be you who have to fight to get your "dream job", and you will most likely have to spend more money after you finish your training to keep current, to keep your skills up to date etc.
I know one friend of mine now, he got his first job after 5 years waiting, countless interviews, he will be away from his family most of the time, but he is lucky as he has a business in can still make some income from.
For somebody who is 40, and who has children, that pay check is of great importance, I despise this idealist BS talk, that the "money does not matter" What utter nonsense. When you have done 12 months flying 900 hours, never home for your family, at least you should have paycheck to cover your mortgage and families life, even if you are not there yourself, if not what kind of selfish man are you?
I am not sure what your age is "jamesgrainge" - maybe 10 or 13 to come with the following comment "some people are driven by more than their future paycheck" - when you are in your 40's, with children / family, that future paycheck is pretty important to be sure you will have a house for your children to leave and food on the table.
You will spend close to £100.000 - this is no pocket change, and your chances to get a job that will give you a living wage, never-mind getting a living lifestyle, is maybe 5 %. You will have people from FTO's, that will "sell you the dream" but when they have your money, they don't care what happens to you, it will be you who have to fight to get your "dream job", and you will most likely have to spend more money after you finish your training to keep current, to keep your skills up to date etc.
I know one friend of mine now, he got his first job after 5 years waiting, countless interviews, he will be away from his family most of the time, but he is lucky as he has a business in can still make some income from.
For somebody who is 40, and who has children, that pay check is of great importance, I despise this idealist BS talk, that the "money does not matter" What utter nonsense. When you have done 12 months flying 900 hours, never home for your family, at least you should have paycheck to cover your mortgage and families life, even if you are not there yourself, if not what kind of selfish man are you?
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I won't rise to any of that.
If a person can't afford it, they won't be able to start training anyway, rendering most of your comment moot.
I will readily admit I know very little of the world of job hunting in commercial aviation, but I do know that the things you regret in life are the things you don't try, how a person orders their responsibilities is a personal choice, and one they must take by themselves. I have tried to be nice and positive in my comments, but unfortunately you simply come across as one of the many here who are bitter, negative and careworn by their life results.
You could put your knowledge and experience to good use by presenting a balanced point of view, for instance I was taught by a FI who had kids and instructed in England. Late 30's and he turned down two job offers because of location, now flies a King Air. Training for command from the get go. Last week I met a man in the cockpit, mid 40's who had qualified 4 years ago and sits in the RHS of a 321.
It may take longer when you are older, but the market presents an opportunity at this time. It may or may not continue, but one thing is for definite, without the licence you have no chance of ever flying more than your imagination.
If a person can't afford it, they won't be able to start training anyway, rendering most of your comment moot.
I will readily admit I know very little of the world of job hunting in commercial aviation, but I do know that the things you regret in life are the things you don't try, how a person orders their responsibilities is a personal choice, and one they must take by themselves. I have tried to be nice and positive in my comments, but unfortunately you simply come across as one of the many here who are bitter, negative and careworn by their life results.
You could put your knowledge and experience to good use by presenting a balanced point of view, for instance I was taught by a FI who had kids and instructed in England. Late 30's and he turned down two job offers because of location, now flies a King Air. Training for command from the get go. Last week I met a man in the cockpit, mid 40's who had qualified 4 years ago and sits in the RHS of a 321.
It may take longer when you are older, but the market presents an opportunity at this time. It may or may not continue, but one thing is for definite, without the licence you have no chance of ever flying more than your imagination.
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"jamesgrainge"
I am one of the "lucky" 5 % who started training early 40's, and now 4500 hours RHS, so I am in a position to speak with some experience on the question. I have worked for 2 airlines, the first was a stepping stone for my current job, which I am extremely happy with.
I accepted when I started this "dream", that I would most likely NOT get a job, that was what I expected and accepted from the outset, it was
However I am refusing to let emotions and dreams mix up with reality.
The FTO's will very rarely present people with the reality, although it might seem an amazing achievement to get your licence and initial ratings, this is one small step towards your career goal, admittedly the earlier you start the journey, the better chance you will have reach living on living salary.
I can say from personal experience, last year I had my "first" holiday / rest period in nearly 4 years from flying, and I am still after 5 years not making enough salary to cover the lifestyle of my family from flying alone. We are not talking any extravagant lifestyle. The first few years I was making even less, around £1400 a month.
So if you are mid 40's, have a couple of children, and want to follow your dream, I think it's nothing wrong to give a word of warning of what to expect, the reality.
I am not complaining at all, but it's a lot easier if you are 22 and have no commitments to worry about. And the airlines they understand this too, hence more difficult to get jobs when you are older and have no experience.
I am one of the "lucky" 5 % who started training early 40's, and now 4500 hours RHS, so I am in a position to speak with some experience on the question. I have worked for 2 airlines, the first was a stepping stone for my current job, which I am extremely happy with.
I accepted when I started this "dream", that I would most likely NOT get a job, that was what I expected and accepted from the outset, it was
However I am refusing to let emotions and dreams mix up with reality.
The FTO's will very rarely present people with the reality, although it might seem an amazing achievement to get your licence and initial ratings, this is one small step towards your career goal, admittedly the earlier you start the journey, the better chance you will have reach living on living salary.
I can say from personal experience, last year I had my "first" holiday / rest period in nearly 4 years from flying, and I am still after 5 years not making enough salary to cover the lifestyle of my family from flying alone. We are not talking any extravagant lifestyle. The first few years I was making even less, around £1400 a month.
So if you are mid 40's, have a couple of children, and want to follow your dream, I think it's nothing wrong to give a word of warning of what to expect, the reality.
I am not complaining at all, but it's a lot easier if you are 22 and have no commitments to worry about. And the airlines they understand this too, hence more difficult to get jobs when you are older and have no experience.
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"button push ignored"
Yes it's like banging your head into a wall.
Just because they don't get the answers they like, want or seek, they believe you are bitter.
The fact is that many of us have been down that long road, and if you coming on to these forums asking questions, than that means you are not sure what you should do, and trying to seek advice from people who have tried this, and have similar experience.
Unless you been down this route, you don't really know what you are talking about, as you so elegantly admitted "jamesgrainge" with your quote "I will readily admit I know very little of the world of job hunting in commercial aviation"
Based on this background, it gives you very little insight to come here on the forum and give your personal advice, when you readily admit you are clueless about how it's getting jobs within aviation.
Considering people on this post, are considering life changing actions in their life, that might have serious financial consequences for them, which would not apply equally to someone that is 21 -26 years old.
You probably base your observations on some websites writing about Ryanair hoovering up pilots etc., yet again this is not a luxury that older candidates gets much benefit of unfortunately.
Even if a company recruits 500 pilots in one year, there will be more than 5000 applications for those 500 jobs. And of those 500 jobs, they will go for a mix of experienced pilots and newbies.
The companies are desperate for experienced pilots, who they can fast track to command, because that is what the companies really need, Captains.
Yes it's like banging your head into a wall.
Just because they don't get the answers they like, want or seek, they believe you are bitter.
The fact is that many of us have been down that long road, and if you coming on to these forums asking questions, than that means you are not sure what you should do, and trying to seek advice from people who have tried this, and have similar experience.
Unless you been down this route, you don't really know what you are talking about, as you so elegantly admitted "jamesgrainge" with your quote "I will readily admit I know very little of the world of job hunting in commercial aviation"
Based on this background, it gives you very little insight to come here on the forum and give your personal advice, when you readily admit you are clueless about how it's getting jobs within aviation.
Considering people on this post, are considering life changing actions in their life, that might have serious financial consequences for them, which would not apply equally to someone that is 21 -26 years old.
You probably base your observations on some websites writing about Ryanair hoovering up pilots etc., yet again this is not a luxury that older candidates gets much benefit of unfortunately.
Even if a company recruits 500 pilots in one year, there will be more than 5000 applications for those 500 jobs. And of those 500 jobs, they will go for a mix of experienced pilots and newbies.
The companies are desperate for experienced pilots, who they can fast track to command, because that is what the companies really need, Captains.
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Hello,
I believe everything you said. I am 41 and I have decided to stay 'safe'. I am not doing it ( but still crazy about it).
There are lots of lovely stories and pilot profiles on Twitter and Instagram. Must be very confusing for some.
I believe everything you said. I am 41 and I have decided to stay 'safe'. I am not doing it ( but still crazy about it).
There are lots of lovely stories and pilot profiles on Twitter and Instagram. Must be very confusing for some.
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I don't doubt that most of what you say is correct, however if you cost yourself £50k on the modular route,and you can start on £40k+ in the airline's, how exactly does this not cover your outgoings? Bearing in mind the average UK salary is £27k.
You seem to apply your rules vey subjectively, even though you succeeded. Surely you can see the irony in having done exactly what people are asking you, with great success and aplomb, you are then doing your damnedest to stop people. When in reality you should be able to push the positives and say, "I did it".
Which part of the world are you working in?
You seem to apply your rules vey subjectively, even though you succeeded. Surely you can see the irony in having done exactly what people are asking you, with great success and aplomb, you are then doing your damnedest to stop people. When in reality you should be able to push the positives and say, "I did it".
Which part of the world are you working in?
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Sorry to hear that Zeky. Maybe you can do your PPL and enjoy flying for pleasure?
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I don't doubt that most of what you say is correct, however if you cost yourself £50k on the modular route,and you can start on £40k+ in the airline's, how exactly does this not cover your outgoings? Bearing in mind the average UK salary is £27k.
You seem to apply your rules vey subjectively, even though you succeeded. Surely you can see the irony in having done exactly what people are asking you, with great success and aplomb, you are then doing your damnedest to stop people. When in reality you should be able to push the positives and say, "I did it".
Which part of the world are you working in?
You seem to apply your rules vey subjectively, even though you succeeded. Surely you can see the irony in having done exactly what people are asking you, with great success and aplomb, you are then doing your damnedest to stop people. When in reality you should be able to push the positives and say, "I did it".
Which part of the world are you working in?
1. First: Modular route with TR will NOT cost you £50K (fact) You also need to include what you pay for your hour building, for modular. I believe you need around 250 hours TT, before you get your CPL. (note I am not update on the exact requirements anymore, just an approx. figure)
So including hour building it will put you to at least £60.000
2. Second: Type Rating - you will with 99% chance have to finance your OWN Type Rating. Which can be anything between £25.000 to £40.000 - and note you will NOT always have the chance to shop around, as certain companies wants you to do your TR with certain training providers.
3. Third: Starting salary at +£40K?
Again I must ask you where do you get your information from?
I know guys doing the first 12 - 24 months on £1000 - £1500 a month after taxes. Add on top of that expenses such as commuting costs, living arrangements if you have to commute, if you in your 40's, you can't just uproot your family/children from school, and bring them to live in a 2.nd or 3.rd world country, just because you have a pipe dream of being a pilot.
Even a salary of £40K, you will struggle after taxes etc., as you will most likely have to have 2 different households.
At best the modular will cost you £90.000 including TR, if you achieve a perfect training record. £90.000 is not pocket change, and we have to work very HARD some of us, to get such money available. (of course not all work equally hard, but that would be off topic now)
So "jamesgrainge" get your facts right - and as you earlier mentioned that money is not the ultimate measurement and goal, take this fact, any other Pilot work, outside airlines, ex. turboprop, instructing and other flying work, you will not make anything close to £40.000. Maybe you should half the figure, and you will be a little closer to reality.
It's all about Decision making, which you will discover later in your pilot career, if you plan for this, this is one of the most important aspects of aviation. I got loads of advice before I started, some good, some bad, but you need the RIGHT information at various stages of your Decision Making process.
I would ask myself what is the worst that could happen, would I be able to live with that, I was in a very fortunate situation, and all played out very well. From end of training to my first job I waited 12 months, which was not bad considering my age.
I even exposed Ryanair for ageism, but that was not my battle, there was very little to gain for me to try fight the ageism battle.
I admit I was very lucky, right place, right time, and knew the right people, for me it was of course hard work, but getting the job was also 80% pure luck and timing.
This advice is for people + 40 (if you are 20 - 35 bracket I would give different advice) 36 - 40 is a grey area. I would generally say if you are finish training around 39 you should be fine, but if you start training at 40, and you have family, you need to consider the pitfalls.
A friend of mine, similar age to me, was in a good profession, lawyer, he left it all for following his dream, he even did P2F, desperate to get a job, paid own TR without a job, guess what? Now today he is still a lawyer, his family left him, his life changed forever.
I talk by experience, and first hand knowledge, know what you are getting into and than decide.
It's not about having regrets for what you did not do, it's about having regrets about what you lost on your journey.
Last edited by BusAirDriver; 1st Sep 2017 at 08:56.
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BusAirDriver, it sounds like you are not happy flying.
I understand giving advice to someone who is 40+ about hiring policies and about being away from family. I never could imagine that someone starting with more than 30 years (I am 25 and in april when i got my PPL, and before starting the ATPLs I used to think it would be near impossibe) could work in an airline, but apparently it can.
But again, training going modular can be done with 40.000€.
If you have to pay a TR, that means an airline actually hired you. For the people that are asking, I think that would mean succeding.
I understand giving advice to someone who is 40+ about hiring policies and about being away from family. I never could imagine that someone starting with more than 30 years (I am 25 and in april when i got my PPL, and before starting the ATPLs I used to think it would be near impossibe) could work in an airline, but apparently it can.
But again, training going modular can be done with 40.000€.
If you have to pay a TR, that means an airline actually hired you. For the people that are asking, I think that would mean succeding.
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Bartolini offer a 0-atpl course for £40,000.
Most would anticipate a loan of £20,000 minimum for a TR.
This gives us a total spend of say £65k (give or take a few thousand)
Your sums are huge and seem to anticipate using expensive schools as a training provider, hence the reason thousands of students don't.
After line Ezy, RYR etc are offering £40k if not more assuming I am understanding the information and assuming the figures are correct on pilotjobswiki.
Ironic you mention facts
Most would anticipate a loan of £20,000 minimum for a TR.
This gives us a total spend of say £65k (give or take a few thousand)
Your sums are huge and seem to anticipate using expensive schools as a training provider, hence the reason thousands of students don't.
After line Ezy, RYR etc are offering £40k if not more assuming I am understanding the information and assuming the figures are correct on pilotjobswiki.
Ironic you mention facts
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"superflanker"
"it sounds like you are not happy flying."
I am slightly confused and bemused by your comment. Where have I said I am not happy flying?
40.000 Euros, do you include hour building in that price? There is cheap, and there is cheap, if you can get PPL / CPL / ME / IR / ATPL theory / MCC and 250 hours TT for 40.000 Euros, than good luck on you. I assume you have not included that you also need to live during this period of training without much income. So I guess you need to add 18 - 24 months living cost on top of that figure - and hour building??
Not sure what FTO offers you 40.000 Euros for such a package giving you 250 hours, but than again there are some FTO's with better reputation than others, and who trains candidates to different level of standards. (again this is slightly of topic)
You are missing the point, getting a job does not mean you are successful, if you can't afford to main your commitment to your family / children.
As some people said here before, money is not everything, however I would equally say flying is not everything either, if it means the rest of your life falls apart.
Being 25 "Superflanker", with all respect, unless you have wife, children, mortgage, you are speaking out of your base of knowledge on this.
As I said you are 25, this advice does NOT apply for you, at 25 you have many options and the airlines will give you an interview.
Over 40, it's difficult to even get an interview if you have NO experience, this is based on personal experience. Why would you as 25 even worry about the "To Old" part, it does not apply for your situation.
However PPL / CPL / ME / IR / ATPL theory / MCC and 250 hours TT for 40.000 Euros, I am not so sure about that. Many people who calculate the modular, forget about the hour building, that is not free.
"it sounds like you are not happy flying."
I am slightly confused and bemused by your comment. Where have I said I am not happy flying?
40.000 Euros, do you include hour building in that price? There is cheap, and there is cheap, if you can get PPL / CPL / ME / IR / ATPL theory / MCC and 250 hours TT for 40.000 Euros, than good luck on you. I assume you have not included that you also need to live during this period of training without much income. So I guess you need to add 18 - 24 months living cost on top of that figure - and hour building??
Not sure what FTO offers you 40.000 Euros for such a package giving you 250 hours, but than again there are some FTO's with better reputation than others, and who trains candidates to different level of standards. (again this is slightly of topic)
You are missing the point, getting a job does not mean you are successful, if you can't afford to main your commitment to your family / children.
As some people said here before, money is not everything, however I would equally say flying is not everything either, if it means the rest of your life falls apart.
Being 25 "Superflanker", with all respect, unless you have wife, children, mortgage, you are speaking out of your base of knowledge on this.
As I said you are 25, this advice does NOT apply for you, at 25 you have many options and the airlines will give you an interview.
Over 40, it's difficult to even get an interview if you have NO experience, this is based on personal experience. Why would you as 25 even worry about the "To Old" part, it does not apply for your situation.
However PPL / CPL / ME / IR / ATPL theory / MCC and 250 hours TT for 40.000 Euros, I am not so sure about that. Many people who calculate the modular, forget about the hour building, that is not free.
Last edited by BusAirDriver; 1st Sep 2017 at 10:09.
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I said that because you achieved a very difficult thing, and you are telling everyone in a similar situation not to do it!
250 hs? You need 200 for a modular CPL, and 150 for integrated.
40.000€ is cheap. 45-50K is perhaps more realistic.
As I said in another post, I don't think this amount of money is significan in the life of a men. I think there in the UK you have salaries of about that money a year, am I right?
Do you know that Audi A4 that you could buy in some years? Just forget about it and get a CPL.
250 hs? You need 200 for a modular CPL, and 150 for integrated.
40.000€ is cheap. 45-50K is perhaps more realistic.
As I said in another post, I don't think this amount of money is significan in the life of a men. I think there in the UK you have salaries of about that money a year, am I right?
Do you know that Audi A4 that you could buy in some years? Just forget about it and get a CPL.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
I am some what bemused by folks who are starting out in this industry arguing to folks who have spent several decades in the industry that we don't know what we're talking about.
Nothing we say will stop you from spending a fortune and trying your luck. I wish you well. However, there is a huge difference between what the sales people will tell you at any flight school (especially L3, OAA, FTE etc) versus reality.
Historically, as in the last 10 years, the vast majority of 250 hour pilots who have obtained a reasonably well paid jet FO job in the UK have come from the above 3 flight schools.
The industry is cyclical and particularly sensitive to the economic cycles. Right now there's a hiring boom. In 2 years time, there may well not be. (Probably lay offs if history's lessons are to be heeded).
A single 25 yo has time on his/her side to weather the troughs, a +40 yo does not.
As stated many times, if you can afford to burn through £50K and more, earn £15-25K for the next 5 years without negatively impacting your family's life, then great, go for it with our blessings. If you can afford £100K+, earn nothing while training, and earn £20-£30k for 2-3 years (and pay rent/loan/mortgage) and not negatively impact your family, again, go for it. These are averaged numbers, and assume you'll get a job soon after completion.
If you don't you'll need to budget 6-12 monthly IR checks to keep yourself current. That is expensive.
Nothing we say will stop you from spending a fortune and trying your luck. I wish you well. However, there is a huge difference between what the sales people will tell you at any flight school (especially L3, OAA, FTE etc) versus reality.
Historically, as in the last 10 years, the vast majority of 250 hour pilots who have obtained a reasonably well paid jet FO job in the UK have come from the above 3 flight schools.
The industry is cyclical and particularly sensitive to the economic cycles. Right now there's a hiring boom. In 2 years time, there may well not be. (Probably lay offs if history's lessons are to be heeded).
A single 25 yo has time on his/her side to weather the troughs, a +40 yo does not.
As stated many times, if you can afford to burn through £50K and more, earn £15-25K for the next 5 years without negatively impacting your family's life, then great, go for it with our blessings. If you can afford £100K+, earn nothing while training, and earn £20-£30k for 2-3 years (and pay rent/loan/mortgage) and not negatively impact your family, again, go for it. These are averaged numbers, and assume you'll get a job soon after completion.
If you don't you'll need to budget 6-12 monthly IR checks to keep yourself current. That is expensive.
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I said that because you achieved a very difficult thing, and you are telling everyone in a similar situation not to do it!
250 hs? You need 200 for a modular CPL, and 150 for integrated.
40.000€ is cheap. 45-50K is perhaps more realistic.
As I said in another post, I don't think this amount of money is significan in the life of a men. I think there in the UK you have salaries of about that money a year, am I right?
Do you know that Audi A4 that you could buy in some years? Just forget about it and get a CPL.
250 hs? You need 200 for a modular CPL, and 150 for integrated.
40.000€ is cheap. 45-50K is perhaps more realistic.
As I said in another post, I don't think this amount of money is significan in the life of a men. I think there in the UK you have salaries of about that money a year, am I right?
Do you know that Audi A4 that you could buy in some years? Just forget about it and get a CPL.
TR another £30.000,
So even if you manage to do your courses at £45.000, you still looking at £90.000
For some of is this is a significant amount of money, for you maybe it's not.
And you try to tell your wife that she has to sell her Audi A4 that she brings the children to school with, because you want to blow £90.000 on training, where you only have 5% chance to get a job, where you will be making £1200 - £1400 a month for the first 2 years, after you spent 2 years training, that's total of 4 years - she what she will say to you?
As I said, you are 25, you don't even have an idea of what the starter pay in the business is. Again, this is thread / replies I have been giving does NOT apply to you, because you are just a babyface still.