redsnail

If we knew that then we'd make a killing on recruitment etc.

There has been talk of the airlines beginning to recruit experienced crews in 2011. However, as for the overall "boom times" for all? Our company is considering 2013 as the earliest time.

Philpaz

Well isn't that the million dollar question. Icelandic ash can't be helping.

fabbe92

So one should still go modular if starting during autumn, 2011?

GearDownFlaps

fabbe you aint getting recruited no how mod or int

fabbe92

Maybe schools like EFT in Florida is the way to go nowdays. They are fairly cheap and they give you the chance to work as an instructor so when you leave them, you have around 1500 hours. That should put you in a better position to apply for a job, than the 250hr guys.

TL638

Thanks for the words of wisdom. Apologies if I offended anyone by calling you 'Boys' just a term I use to try and make myself feel younger! Nearing 25 now and the grey hairs may just be starting to get to me.

It would really help us wannabes if there were some hard facts about the pilot job market - for example....

Can anyone help with this info as it would help to make an informed decision.

To answer Martinch's question regarding my statement of paying double etc. I have worked to save approx 30% of the cost of an integrated course and will use this saving as a contingency to suppliment my repayments after I have completed the course. Hopefully with the investments I have made with some of this saving I should have a few years of repayments under my belt so I don't need to panic if I dont find a job straight away. I would'nt say my father is stupid (you may do?) but yes the aim is to take out a securred loan.

If you believe publications such as Flyer and Flight International there is now speculation of a possible pilot shortage in 2 years time. Let's hope so!

UAV689

And where do they base this from? The so called retirement bubble that has been thrown about for the last 10 years or so?
Where is the growth in UK going to come from? certainly not Ryan and easy, I believe they have both made their future plans known, and after the current deliveries have been made thats it. I think the current boom will never be repeated, perhaps in the sand pit or far east, but certainly not in UK.

Sporky

Where to start! If someone asked me on my opinion this is it. Modular.

Pre 2007 I would have said integrated. However, things have changed. I was very close to going integrated but chose modular and it has been the best decision I ever made. I trained at the top schools at some point and came out spending Ģ40k for 270 hours.
After finishing recently I now have the same piece of paper as someone on an integrated course but half the debt and not crippled by the interest payments.

The good thing about the integrated course is that if there are jobs then you are going to be fine, but now, very few jobs, you join everybody else in the pool and fight it out. I suspect that this will be the case for the sometime.

If you can genuinely afford Ģ115k (including a type rating), and I mean GENUINELY (not just being accepted for a loan) go integrated. If not modular is the route to go by some distance regarding price.

(Sorry if the answer is slightly disjointed it is very difficult to summarise this subject I could write pages and pages on the modular integrated issue pro and con for either).

Pilot Positive

TL 638,

Whilst your efforts to appraise the industry are applauded you need to take into account your circumtances/goals and the prospects of the industry...which at the moment are quite bleak. I would resist the temption to over analyse and to make a decision based on risk v return at this moment in time.

If you want hard facts such as those you've asked for, which may require investment of research (afterall aviation is an industry), then perhaps your best bet is to speak with either the CAA, IPA, BALPA or a leading industry player such as BA (possibly all!) who may have conducted an in-depth study on pilot recruitment and employment.

However, if you want to enter the industry, start by investing your time now by doing PPL/NPPL/Glider flying and that way you'll at least get some sort of flying experience and will allow you to see a little bit of the industry from within. As things start to improve your investment of time will start to pay off and you can then make a more informed and balanced decision on which route to take.

G SXTY

Complete and utter rubbish I'm afraid. The flight training industry has been selling the prospect of a 'pilot shortage' for as long as they've been training pilots. I started to seriously consider a flying career back in the late 1990s, and the schools were saying exactly the same thing then. The fact that wannabes want to hear it doesn't make it true. To add to the reality check, count the number of FTO adverts in the back of any flying magazine, then consider the advertising revenue they bring in, then consider whether the magazine might just have a vested interest in perpetuating this myth. When faced with an industry that knows you are itching to part with Ģ60k+, and would love to get their hands on your money, it pays to treat their claims with extreme cynicism.

To get definitive answers to your other questions would require lots of data from the CAA and individual airlines - which you'll never get - but I'll try and give you my thoughts, from the perspective of a UK airline pilot who is not trying to sell you anything:

Very difficult to say with any precision, but probably somewhere between the high hundreds and a couple of thousand. In any case, the exact number is pretty academic – what matters is that there are lots of people chasing their first break in a market where first jobs are practically non-existant.

Fewer than in the last few years. BA recently raised their retirement age from 55 to 60, and as the UK's single biggest employer of pilots, that on its own will have an effect. Long term, retirement age is only likely to increase further. Again, it's fairly academic, because you will always have more wannabes trying to enter the market than people retiring from it. As an example, my airline employs around 700 pilots, and I can think of 4 or 5 who have retired in the last few months. If we were accepting CVs, I can guarantee you we would get more that that number every day.

Thousands. Far more than there will ever be jobs for. If you wanted to be really nerdy, you could look up how many light twins each of the commercial schools has, then, assuming that each aircraft operates say four student sorties per day, and each of those students takes around a month to complete the flying part of their IR, you could calculate a figure. It won't be pretty.

As I've said, you're not going to get this, but here's a ballpark view of the UK's four biggest employers of pilots. BA, when they recruit low hours pilots, will only take integrated candidates, and even then it's only a handful every month (note that having Oxford on your CV is not a ticket into BA). Ryanair couldn't give a toss whether you were integrated or modular, as long as you can pass (and pay for) their type rating course. Easyjet have traditionally sourced their low-houred pilots from CTC, which is actually a modular course, albeit run on a full-time (aka integrated) basis. Given their new found enthusiasm for pay to fly, however, I wouldn't get too excited about your prospects with them. Flybe don't mind whether you're integrated or modular, and if my experience is anything to go by, the mix is roughly 50/50. That's the big four, who between them account for the great majority of low-houred airline opportunities. Personally, I don't think it makes a convincing case for integrated, but if you think it's worth spending double for a better chance of a job, then fill your boots.

As Pilot Positive says, all the analysis and number crunching is a little academic right now. There are virtually no jobs out there irrespective of your choice of school or training route, and that situation is unlikely to improve for at least the next couple of years. If you are passionate about flying (and why else would you want to be an airline pilot?) then get down to your local flying club and do some PPL training. It's all hours in the logbook, and at least you can be doing something constructive while waiting for the market to improve.

Hezza

Hi G SXTY,

Thanks for posting such an in depth reply. Just one query, from where did the information regarding BA only recruiting integrated students come from? I've heard it many times, but when I went up onto the flight deck of a BA flight last summer (pre take off) to chat with the pilots, neither thought it was correct... The FO had joined direct from CTC as a 200hr guy, which as you say is effectively a modular course.

G SXTY

I don't work for BA, so my information is third-hand, but as I understand it the reasons are historical. In the olden days before JAA, when the choice was CAP509 (what is now integrated) or the self-improver (modular) route, BA allegedly took on a few low-houred self-improvers, and weren't particularly impressed. Since then, all recruitment of inexperienced pilots has been via the 'approved' / CAP509 / integrated route. Presumably a candidate from CTC would be acceptable as they have passed an initial selection and would come with a verifiable training history (the CTC course being integrated in all but name).

Note that once you have enough commercial experience to apply to BA as a direct entry (experienced) pilot, they are as disinterested as everyone else as to how and where you got your licence.

flyhelico

BA? this company is a joke and you should nt join a school who send pilots to BA.
when you look at the strikes(pretty much every month now), the management who don't care except how much is on their fat bank account, I can not trust who is in charge of these planes.it' s all corrupt from the top to the the bottom!.

BA is already dead, in a few months they will close their doors.
I think it' s going to be the end for Oxford Aviation and the end of many integrated schools

who cares?, some other airlines will take the lines, and student will go somewhere else.
plenty of good schools where you save lot of bucks!.

fabbe92

Well if I hade the oppurtunity to work for BA, I would go there directly. They have problems right now, but so does all the other carriers as well. Letīs face it, BA is the ultimate career goal for many and they are among the best airline pilots in the world, together with Lufthansa and others, if you look at their assesement, training and standards.

aanthonisz

Im looking at doing my CPL in Oz next year. Im 29 and looking for the best, most cost effective way of obtaining my cpl, with a frozen Atpl, can anyone give me some guidance on this? Obviously time frame is a factor due to my age, however still want to get the best training possible. Prices seem to fluctuate quite dramatically it seems, Modular or intergrated??? whats the difference from those of you who have taken the different paths. Thanks in advance

May fly

Has anyone heard of or dealt with Waterford pilot training college in Ireland? have been offered a place on their modular (zero to CPL and theory ATPL) course but price is huge 87,500 Euro. they have a link with Florida I.T which is where you do majority of hours.

FL370 Officeboy

All these replies about how much cheaper it is are pretty academic as there is one rather important issue:

THERE ARE NO JOBS!!!

(**I don't count paying Easyjet Ģ34,000 for the honour of flying their passengers about for a bit whilst the next sap waits in the wings for their turn as a 'job'**)

This thread was started on the 26th January of this year. So, what is the OP's current employment status? Of the people joining the love-in along the way...what is your employment status? I am referring more specifically to recent graduates of the money saving modular courses (i.e. G-SXTY etc telling us about their success in 2008 is pretty irrelevant as the jobs market is a totally different place now).

You would have to be a nutter to go and spent any amount on an ATPL with no job at the end at this moment in time (Ģ50,000 is hardly loose change). The only way I could envisage advising someone to start training is if they were accepted onto a tagged or part sponsored scheme. The only company I know of doing this at the moment is flybe. The pick is the part sponsored Cabair scheme run annually, with the FTE MPL and Waterford schemes thrown in there too. The airline makes a contribution to your training here and hence has an interest in employing you at the end. Before anyone moans about the flybe pay/bond...you'd be Ģ34,000 better off straight away due to not having a super dooper TR to pay for!

Traditionally, low hours recruits have recently finished their training and are fresh or still in the training mentality. Training now then hoping to potter around for a bit until the upturn happens isn't a great policy, no matter how much cheaper it is. When airlines start recruiting it will be the lucky people popping out of the training system at that time..and most probably from the airlines' favoured schools. Right place, right time etc etc.

Just because WWW cites one example and using their position as a moderator tp make it a sticky just to back up their personal opinion does not make it fact, gospel or more valid...especially when it is pretty irrelvant when considered in the big context which is GETTING A JOB! After all, unless it ends up in employment/living the dream it is a wasted Ģ50,000 doing a modular course too.

In summary, both a modular AND integrated course would be a waste of money if you didn't get a job at the end. So, at this moment in time stay away from training unless you have a job sorted...which in all likelihood means a tagged/part-sponsored integrated or MPL course.

Pilot Positive

Originally, in the early 70's, training was completed at Hamble where a selected number of cadets went through their zero-to-hero training program. Along the way of each program a good % of these cadets dropped out/failed to meet their required standards - which were high. So since this time an integrated student approach to co-pilot training has been inherent in their culture - only nowadays they have simply delegated this approach to a few selected schools.

Unfortunately, FL370 Officeboy's post contains grains of reality, especially for the UK, where regardless of the training route you take it simply is not a good time to be training. However, the gloss of the FTO's and the subtle suggestions that "there's light at the end of the tunnel", "some airlines are talking about pilot shortages in 2 years" and "by the time you finish there'll be jobs around" etc... are only ways of drawing new revenue into the industry.

Be warned, integrated FTOs have very well honed sales cultures and are probably quite happy to flout and breach consumer law including the law of misrepresentation in order get ya money. So plan carefully, invest for the long term and avoid "I want a job NOW" fast-tracking mentality as a great many of you will be very sorely dissappointed.

G SXTY

How long have I been saying there are no jobs out there?

How long have I been saying it's not going to improve for at least another couple of years?

How many times have I said that success in this game is all about timing?



I'm starting to feel like www.

Wee Weasley Welshman

Welcome to my world!

Daily PM's asking whether Oxford or Cabair or Boeing or Airbus rating. The phrase Wannabe Zombie Army was a considered one. They are relentless and unstoppable.

If your ultimate career goal is to wait decades for a command whilst working in an atmosphere of hostile industrial relations and be based in LHR LGW then maybe BA is for you. They are not the best airline pilots in the world. They're bog standard. Like me. Like the rest of the airline pilots out there. In BA, like every other airline, there are Piloting Gods, bloody idiots and inbetween a vast swathe of bog standard airline pilots doing their job and living their life. The assesement is a total lottery, the training is good but nothing exceptional and the standards are high - just like most places. I doubt any BA pilot would take offence or exception at those comments.



The bottom line of the substantive point of this thread is this. When times are booming it can be worth paying the Integrated premium because this can lead to direct entry to major airline right hand seats. When times are busting it can be worth saving money by going Modular because debt repayments are a ballache and training can be slowed/delayed/speeded up as required by economic developments and personal circumstance.

We're in a massive Bust. Go Modular. You muppets.


ps Flying magazines - and I've met a few of the Editors in my time - make ALL their profit on the advertisements in the back. Note that most of the larger and therefore expensive ones are from schools selling flight training. Have you ever heard the phrase 'never bite the hand that feeds you'? Well flying magazines stroke it, manicure it and paint its freakin' fingernails. Don't believe a word they say about pilot recruitment or employment. Not one word. Ever.